Let's talk Skellige - what's wrong with this faction?

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NR has the new Prince who is easily 10 point swing. Don't just look at "Tall Units" as a unit with big point on the board. Always look at how much point it brings on the board and how easily (deploy or order or engine). In all my NR decks I add the drummer and Ves and mostly (I would say 95% of the time) I play Prince for 10 points swing on the same turn.

I'm not saying the North does not have good cards, I like many cards from the North. Fact is, they have no tall units.
 

rrc

Forum veteran
At this point in time, I think the more pressing question is, "what is is that Skellige cannot do, that other factions can", rather than the opposite. Or what is unique with other factions that Skellige does not have or cannot do?
To answer your question of "What SK can't doo that other factions can" SK can not suck as much as all the factions put together :p. But to answer seriously:

SK (or any other factions) can't have the flexibility between Order or (equivalent to) Deploy ability on a card like NR: Formation
SK (or any other factions) can't have traps like ST
SK (or any other factions) can't have a Positive Row effect like MO
SK (or any other factioon) can't have <I don't have anything to say here, so sorry> NG
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12 - 3 (self-wound damage required to transform) = 9
same as Frightener
12 - 3 or higher number (destroyed allied units required to transform) = 9 +

This is an isolated analysis. Now with Leader or card synergies in the equation, it's a different thing.
I am sorry, but this doesn't many any sense at all. How is the self-wound damage required considered as a negative point on the board? The self-wound point can be considered as a negative thing if it sticks with the board. It is like saying Totem is 6 point card as it needs 4 damage to get the Fanatic to Bear Abonimations. You are not sacrifing the damage you would otherwise have used on the opponent too transform Vildkaarl or even Fanatic and hence considering the damage done to them as a negative point to those cards is absolutely wrong.

When Svalblod uses his charge, he doesn't lose any point, but it should be considered as a positive point like +3 (since for every damage he is creating a Bear Abomination in the backend). Even if Butcher's damage is considered, for 2 damage, he gains 3 points with bleeding so again it is a positive point.

Saying Vildkaarl as 9:9 is extremely wrong. He is 12 for 9 or 15 for 9 with SvalBlod. His provision cost can be set to 11 and he would still be useful with Svalblod. That is the reason SvalBlod is broken OP currently.
 
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So where in the match do SK's strengths present the biggest problem to overcome? R1, R2 or R3?
 
Please explain to me exactly, "what is the concept of Skellige", and I will point to you tons of cards that are outside that concept. Piling on new concepts on one faction doesn't make any sense. And by "concepts" I also include such things as "tall units" and even the disgusting Slave Infantry copy card.

It's well and good to have archtypes and a concept, unless a bunch of non-related things is added too that unnecessarily.

At this point in time, I think the more pressing question is, "what is is that Skellige cannot do, that other factions can", rather than the opposite. Or what is unique with other factions that Skellige does not have or cannot do?

Certainly is not:
- Boosting
- General damage (bronze damage, faction gold regular damage)
- Variable big damage
- Giant killing
- Graveyard interaction
- Locking
- Tall units
- Simple engines
- Advanced engines

Let's try to reconsider the question a bit. What exactly is Northern Realms good at that Skellige is not good at? Just as an example.

Boost, damage, and engines are a neutral concept. The degree of those just differs per faction.

SK has:
- Self-wound
- Control
- Discard
- Graveyard synergy
- Alchemy & Heal (underdeveloped)

SK boost is not a thing, it's just trivial boost and every faction have that. As the control faction, it's just right to claim big damages. Graveyard interaction is a SK concept but not the same level of utility as MO. Lock? You mean Djenge? The only lock unit of SK? Engines - every faction have engines.

What exactly is Northern Realms good at that Skellige is not good at? Just as an example.
- NR is better at engine control, boosting, and swarming.
 

rrc

Forum veteran
So where in the match do SK's strengths present the biggest problem to overcome? R1, R2 or R3?
R1 is for sure. R2 or R3 depends on the SK players mood; whether (s)he wants to push and win 2:0 or give one round for the poor opponent and wants to win in R3. :giveup:
 
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I am sorry, but this doesn't many any sense at all. How is the self-wound damage required considered as a negative point on the board? The self-wound point can be considered as a negative thing if it sticks with the board. It is like saying Totem is 6 point card as it needs 4 damage to get the Fanatic to Bear Abonimations. You are not sacrifing the damage you would otherwise have used on the opponent too transform Vildkaarl or even Fanatic and hence considering the damage done to them as a negative point to those cards is absolutely wrong.

When Svalblod uses his charge, he doesn't lose any point, but it should be considered as a positive point like +3 (since for every damage he is creating a Bear Abomination in the backend). Even if Butcher's damage is considered, for 2 damage, he gains 3 points with bleeding so again it is a positive point.

Saying Vildkaarl as 9:9 is extremely wrong. He is 12 for 9 or 15 for 9 with SvalBlod. His provision cost can be set to 11 and he would still be useful with Svalblod. That is the reason SvalBlod is broken OP currently.

Now that you pointed it out, I am starting to see. :think:
 
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Boost, damage, and engines are a neutral concept. The degree of those just differs per faction.

SK has:
- Self-wound V
- Control V
- Discard V
- Graveyard synergy - OK
- Alchemy & Heal (underdeveloped) - OK, N/A, I count heal into a more complex boost engine

SK boost is not a thing, it's just trivial boost and every faction have that. As the control faction, it's just right to claim big damages. Graveyard interaction is a SK concept but not the same level of utility as MO. Lock? You mean Djenge? The only lock unit of SK? Engines - every faction have engines.

What exactly is Northern Realms good at that Skellige is not good at? Just as an example.
- NR is better at engine control, boosting, and swarming.

How can you say SK boost is not a thing? They have the cheapest, simplest and most powerful boost engine in the game! They have many boost synergy cards in addition. They have both simple and advanced boost engines, where you can also add self-damage to the engine and make it super powerful and super complex.

I would add to your list SK has:
- Boost engine
- High variance damage
- Giant killers
- Tall units

I started this game playing the North, until I realized how bad this faction is (was). The boost engines are complex to set up and super easy to remove, so actually, Skellige has better boost engines than the North, all in all. Then you might get into the super complex fantastic engines the North CAN make, true, but those can in fact also be matched by Skellige.

I was OK with the old control ability of Skellige, that was perfectly fine, even the big damage, but this has now turned very cheap and/or exhaggerated. I don't count Knut as an issue, in fact I like that card, but now with Vildkarl/Champion it has become a massive issue. Same goes for Hjalmar, not an issue before, but now with the cheap Disgraced Brawler in the graveyard for a measly provision, and adding power on it's own on board, it has cheapened Hjalmar beyond justification. Not to mention Vildkarl yet again. In the current setup, unlike old Skellige, Hjalmar is an auto include and will always find value, even with a cheap 5 provision card! That's not good. I don't mind Hjalmar, I mind Vildkarl and Brawler, they made this issue. Before you would have to bring Olaf and/or Jutta, and Jutta was a risky play unless you counted graveyard. Vildkarl/Champion is not risky at all, and provide way more value on the board. Even if you don't bring him, you can insta-value Hjalmar more than before just by adding a cheap brawler. It doesn't even take any provision consideration, unlike adding Olaf and/or Jutta did before. Both Knut and Hjalmar are now overpowered due to the new cards added. I have nothing against these cards on their own or as Skellige was before, but now they have become a real problem for the game. I don't want anything to happen to Knut or Hjalmar, but if they keep Vildkarl and/or Brawler, something have to be adjusted with both of them. I don't want that, I like those cards, problem is the new cards.

I mean, the discussion has been on variable damage for many cards, Skaggs, Cleaver etc, but now Skellige has become the super faction for faction exclusive variable damage cards? How is that even making any sense.

I think they need to Vault Vildkarl and Brawler actually. It is critically important for the game, and for Knut and for Hjalmar.

Ok, thanks for listing what you think is the archtypes of Skellige. I added some other ones that I think also apply. Now take a look at monsters and make a list for them, and compared that, and then say which of those are exclusive to monsters, as oppose to now shared with Skellige (like giant units). In fact, do it for all factions, and you will see the problem that I am referring to. North, look at the North. Do they even have any archtypes that Skellige does not? Don't even say order. I can think of ALOT of "types" SKellige have that North does not, but not the other way around.

PS. Let's remove the lock claim, all faction now have 1 lock unit (aside from monsters?).
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R1 is for sure. R2 or R3 depends on the SK players mood; whether (s)he wants to push and win 2:0 or give one round for the poor opponent and wants to win in R3. :giveup:

HAHA.

I think the next thing will have to be to add thrive and deathwish to all Skellige units, just to make the whole faction immortal.

:smart:
 
@mzeebra high damage variance and giant killers is under the control archetype. Like i said "tall units" are just units whose points are concentrated to themselves, are you even reading this part? Kindly name what boost engine/s are you refering that you consider SK have as an archetype. If it's just Priest then that doesn't completely merit the boost archetype. If it's the selfwound heal synergy then that belongs to selfwound archetype. As far as i know, Priest is the only boost engine SK have. Protector? that's under selfwound. Blacksmith maybe but no one actually uses him competitively.
 
I just love that people, who don't play SK, think they know that faction. As @BrokeCiri said, there is no boost archetype in SK. And giant killers? What the heck should that be?
 
@mzeebra high damage variance and giant killers is under the control archetype. Like i said "tall units" are just units whose points are concentrated to themselves, are you even reading this part? Kindly name what boost engine/s are you refering that you consider SK have as an archetype. If it's just Priest then that doesn't completely merit the boost archetype. If it's the selfwound heal synergy then that belongs to selfwound archetype. As far as i know, Priest is the only boost engine SK have. Protector? that's under selfwound. Blacksmith maybe but no one actually uses him competitively.

I don't agree. I think giant killers are tech cards, like Geralt and Leo. The same card with some easy condition is not much different. You can even lump Scorch and the likes into this category. It is a very specific type of cards.

High variance damage at best is a very specific type of control units in that case, or in my opinion, a category of their own. High variance conditional damage cards.

Well, selfwound is a boost type in some cases, or it triggers berserk in other cases, but selfwound with boost and heal can also be added into more complex boosting engines, the same goes for berserk actually, especially with the self wound engine. Personally I consider it part of the boosting family, at least those with a strong boosting focus. Longships and berserk is what I consider the real self damage concept, but ofcourse, the boost of Skellige (also Svalblod priest), belong in that category. I don't mind this category, aside from as I said, Svalblod priest is overpowered. Just don't tell me that this engine is not far easier to set up and more powerful and difficult to stop than Norths boost engine. It's my opinion that the boost engine(s) of Skellige are less complex, more resillient and more powerful than those of the North.

I'm no expert on classification, and I don't think there is an official way to classify, so we all might be doing it differently. But I don't consider giant killers and variance damage to be in the same category as deploy and damage bronze cards or even "normal" deploy and damage gold cards (ie. "control"). Anything above or potentially above 4 damage, unless it is a special card, is not really the same as high variance damage or "giant killers". And those two categories are not the same either IMO.

I don't mind those variance damage card in Skellige really, I just think that mechanic was broken with the inclusion of Disgraced Brawler and Vildkarl/Champion.
 
Since we're mentioning tech cards that punish big units, as someone who runs them regularly, I'd like to point out that they just don't get the same value across the board as you think. It's pretty easy to brick with Geralt, Leo and Scorch if you're up against decks that go wide, or your opponent just doesn't have a big 8+ unit to finish with. Geralt:Igni, a card that used to see a lot of play in open beta, really struggles to find value with the overall low unit value. Which brings it back to the other problem Gwent has always had - most tech is too situtational and lacks a good body to offset the effect of bricking.

R1 is for sure. R2 or R3 depends on the SK players mood; whether (s)he wants to push and win 2:0 or give one round for the poor opponent and wants to win in R3. :giveup:
Maybe try playing Usurper then. Seems once the leader is out of the picture, most SK netdeckers tend to crumble pretty quickly, overextending themselves in R1 and setting up an easy R2 bleed.
 
Imagine if all factions had these overpowered tools and units. It would require special solutions ALWAYS and make everything alot more unpredictable and out of balance.

Overpowered is a relative word, if every faction had Skellige's strength then no faction would be overpowered. They would be equal by comparison. Why wouldnt you want every faction to be well designed like Skellige is? They're the only faction with real synergys.
 
Overpowered is a relative word, if every faction had Skellige's strength then no faction would be overpowered. They would be equal by comparison. Why wouldnt you want every faction to be well designed like Skellige is? They're the only faction with real synergys.

Well, I don't think Skellige is well designed. And why do you need to adjust all the other factions to the strength of Skellige, rather than moving Skellige to the strength of all the other factions? I mentioned the cards above in the first post as "problematic", but Brawler and Vildkarl/Champion were just disastrous additions.

Currently I think Nilfgaard and Scoia'Tael are the most well designed overall. But they are far more of a concept than Skellige, and have a more specific type of play, and cards that fit the main concept of the faction.

If you adjust all the factions to the strength of Skellige it would just unbalance the whole game and the core of the game, like Skellige now does, requiring you to bring 5x Leo/Geralt to be able to handle a single deck or always have a 5-6 damage special card at hand.

Monsters is the faction that is suppose to have giant units, it fits the lore and it does not make Monsters overpowered. Don't you even remember how easy it is to take out a bear in the Witcher 3? You could even take out the "super bear champion" with your bare hands. Making these units giants doesn't fit with the overall concept, so tone it down. Olaf I don't mention, because it is passable and I think most people like or don't mind that card.
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Since we're mentioning tech cards that punish big units, as someone who runs them regularly, I'd like to point out that they just don't get the same value across the board as you think. It's pretty easy to brick with Geralt, Leo and Scorch if you're up against decks that go wide, or your opponent just doesn't have a big 8+ unit to finish with. Geralt:Igni, a card that used to see a lot of play in open beta, really struggles to find value with the overall low unit value. Which brings it back to the other problem Gwent has always had - most tech is too situtational and lacks a good body to offset the effect of bricking.

I agree. Leo bricks less often than Geralt though. Logically speaking they should have the opposite abilities. But the giant killer of Skellige never bricks, and that was part of the issue I mentioned to, he always get's value, the condition is ridiculously easy to meet. Sure he can't take on a boosted unit, but the variable damage units can, easily.

I do bring Leo in all my decks though, chance is that I get to use it somehow. Maybe 33/33/33, giant/witcher/brick. But I can remedy the brick a little bit with Vivienne for example, it's not ideal, but at least something.
 
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2 cards made me quit Gwent until they are toned down. Vildkaarl and Svalblod Priest. The Priest needs to be slightly nerfed to a 2 STR body so you can at least remove him with a 4 damage card otherwise he's a neverending engine that ticks and ticks and ticks every single turn and you need locks or spend too much to kill him (like a Geralt... but wait you will miss him when they put Olaf or Vildkaarl on the board). For toning down Vildkaarl I suggest giving the Champion of Svalblod card a doomed tag so he won't get Renewed or used again in combination with Hjalmar. The card is just too good, it can even heal itself.
So far I only won against Svalblod consistently with Crach an Craite (yeah another Skellige deck) but that deck is just HARD control, it kills almost every engine you can put. It has Geralt: Pro, Vabjorn, Djenge, Cleaver, Curse of Corruption, Ulfhedinn, Hjalmar to deal with tall units and engines. There are other problematic cards like the cheap 7 point Brawler or the cheap 7 point swing Primal Savagery. Blueboy lugos never in a million years warranted a buff too.
 
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DRK3

Forum veteran
@mzeebra Just an infobit, since i know you started recently and might be unaware of certain "older" SK strategies:

One card you constantly criticize is Disgraced Brawler, saying how good it works with Hjalmar...
Well, before there was Disgraced Brawler, and really before the self-damage archetype was really fleshed out in CC (some would say 'too fleshed out'...), there was the Warrior Archetype, associated with Eist.

And there's these cards: Tuirseach Veteran and Jutta, which are Warriors with high base strengthts (8 and 12), but usually play at half of their base strength. Usually you'd want to discard a veteran (otherwise its just a 4pt bronze), so you can have Hjalmar do 8 damage, even better than with D. Brawler.

Honestly Disgraced Brawler is probably only OP on Arnjolf or Crach decks, where its very easy to get BT3, otherwise they're risky, since 4 dmg on them virtually becomes 7.

The card that REALLY needs to be nerfed, like i've been saying for awhile now, its svalblod priest, not disgraced brawler.
 
And there's these cards: Tuirseach Veteran and Jutta, which are Warriors with high base strengthts (8 and 12), but usually play at half of their base strength. Usually you'd want to discard a veteran (otherwise its just a 4pt bronze), so you can have Hjalmar do 8 damage, even better than with D. Brawler.

Good points in your post but disgraced brawler is problematic for more than 1 reason. If you don't run a control deck, you have to "waste" overkill on this unit, otherwise it will be huge value of Skellige. 7 points is higher than most units in the game. 6 is high "normal" and 5 is good points on the board.

I don't know on the top of my head, Tuirsearch Veteran provisions (5?), but I don't really mind that card, even as a combination with Hjalmar. It put's 4 point on the table, not 7. Personally I'd say Brawler is a better card than Veteran unless you run some kind of heal or similar things. The overall value is better for brawler, except perhaps against control decks with alot of 2-3 damage units. It was not so much ONLY the Hjalmar thing I mind with Brawler (Vildkarl/Champion, bwah), but the addition of more tall units for Skellige. Brawler is too much value.

I do mind all the cards I listed actually, and they are listed in no particular order. But I'd say Vildkarl/Champion and Svalblod Priest are pretty high up there. And then you have my personal disdain for that Slave Infantry copy (which is not an overpowered card, I just find it disgusting they added it to Skellige).

But well, for the provisions and the various value it can provide, I strongly dislike Disgraced Brawler too.
 
I agree. Leo bricks less often than Geralt though. Logically speaking they should have the opposite abilities. But the giant killer of Skellige never bricks, and that was part of the issue I mentioned to, he always get's value, the condition is ridiculously easy to meet. Sure he can't take on a boosted unit, but the variable damage units can, easily.
Yeah, but isn't that the same with Cleaver? That card can still do removal in all but the worst case scenario R3 and he hits boosted units. Problem being that other factions aren't that well designed, rather than SK being the swiss army knife faction. As was mentioned, if the same standard was applied to other factions, then nobody would complain about SK. The reality is that bad design has made it so that there's insufficient design space to make those improvements without making certain combos in other factions ridiculously overpowered.

I do bring Leo in all my decks though, chance is that I get to use it somehow. Maybe 33/33/33, giant/witcher/brick. But I can remedy the brick a little bit with Vivienne for example, it's not ideal, but at least something.
I run Leo and Geralt in a witcher themed deck. Geralt is intended to brick as a bait and switch to draw out the tall finisher. Works most of the time if it's not an immune unit. It's ok for jank, but still a sad reflection on the game that spending that many provisions on very situational tech is actually a thing. Logic suggests that the more restrictive and limited the condition is, the less the card should cost. Sadly, Gwent has been balanced more around what bug is up the community's butt this month, rather than the cards themselves.
 
"Let's talk Skellige - what's wrong with this faction?"

Nothing.

(But there's a lot wrong with all the other factions)
 
Problem being that other factions aren't that well designed, rather than SK being the swiss army knife faction.

Yes, think is pretty much the conclusion of the whole thread.

Yesterday, I was able to beat "famous" self-wounding deck with Henselt in ranked, but with all due respect, the opponent was most likely sleeping already or was just so sure he has to beat NR that switched the brain off. Putting Olaf on board in situation when opponent is having 2 Arbalests and 2 Mages with lot of charges ready is ridiculous, of course was shot down immediately. And pretty much whole match similar master pieces.. From my pov, this is just nice addition to the point made, as clearly illustrates how much "skill and focus" is required when playing Skellige to get to rank 7..
 
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