Level scaling ruins the game

[moonknightgog]

Character progression is a very important element of the RPG genre. It's the journey of your character going from total rookie to master, and traditionally this reflects on the difficulty curve. You start the game with an incompetent character and everything is difficult, then you character become more and more competent and things become increasingly easier. The pre 2.0 Cyberpunk was like this. Your V starts low level and combat and stealth and netrunning are hard, and then V increases in experience, buys more and more cyberware, and everything become easier. There's a very good sense of progression in there.

But level scaling ruins it. Now every enemy is as competent as V regardless if it makes sense for them to be (gonks like Valentinos can stand their own against a level 50 super augmented V). It completely removes the sense of progression, it makes V's abilities feel weaker and the enemies become bullet sponges. As a result the game feel samey and it flattens the difficulty curve. It's a dirty way of bringing balacing to the game, regardless if the game actually needs it.

It's an horrible decision and I hope it will be made optional in the near future.

 

[Guest 4702915]

Agreed, but...does it matter, any more?
As all options for gameplay bar 'charge in and shoot everyone' have been removed due them killing hacking entirely, what does it matter?

 

[GrimReaper801]

Level scaling is the one thing about the update I'm slightly miffed about.

I say slightly miffed because I can't say I have played enough with the new update to really feel whether it does or not destroy the sense of progression. What little I have played seems to indicate that enemy level scale to your level but don't scale to your overall power.

Meaning that enemies get stronger in a very linear fashion whereas you get exponentially stronger as you upgrade your gear/cyberware and gain various perks. Ultimately leading to a sense of clear progression.

Again, I may be wrong as I started over and am barely getting into the new systems but within a few hours that's what I noticed.

 

[Iferrebee]

So this is why I am not one tapping everything thing that moves

Makes sense now.

Wish the would of left hacking alone. Guns don't feel as rewarding when you have to shoot everything for such a long time

 

[Industrial-Rusty]

agreed. level scaling makes it a complete different game - i won`t buy. will not buy phantom liberty and go back to 1.6 somehow. this game is ruined.

luckily, they let us know what they planned without spending an additional $ for phantom liberty. so i don`t go into this trap.

 

[Aron_Acker]

CD PRJOJECT RED now gonna change my review to 7/10.Stupid decisions by [...] devs....

 

[burgledikon]

The game is dead. It's just another shooter now so who cares? I'm not getting that DLC and just gonna move on.

 

[FeadHit]

we should be given an option just like in the witcher, you could enable lvl scaling or disable anytime

 

[jeka1900]

we should be given an option just like in the witcher, you could enable lvl scaling or disable anytime

Yep, it's a obvious solution

 

[Spectral_Warrior]

The game is dead. It's just another shooter now so who cares? I'm not getting that DLC and just gonna move on.

Its a singleplayer game, wether its 'dead' means absolutely nothing.

On topic, I'm rather indifferent. You'll probably will be able to make yourself into a machine of death OP legend. Except now YOU have to put in more work to make it happen rather than just level up without further effort.
Sounds like a (so far) theoretical non-issue.

 

[MartineDee]

Oh, level scaling was added? Daym, no, ... that thing was annoying af in Oblivion.

 

[ShinAkira00]

The game is dead. It's just another shooter now so who cares? I'm not getting that DLC and just gonna move on.

So why are you here, on a forum about a game you think is dead and have no intention of playing talking about a DLC you just said you will not buy :/ Criticism is fine, I have plenty but this just feels like adding noise.

 

[cammoking123]

I disagree. It's fun now. I've felt Cyberpunk was a little too easy on the harder difficulties. I used to get bored late game because my V was basically invulnerable. Before Cyberpyscho's were the only enemy that could harm a high level V. Now things are more balanced.

 

[moonknightgog]

It's also important to add that level scaling also ruins stealth. You can't one shot enemies in the head with a silenced pistols, you need 2-3 shots and the other enemies get alerted.
It's like they developed this update with only combat as a focus, but the strenghts of this game was to be able to choose how you wanted to complete a mission.

 

[ShinAkira00]

Character progression is a very important element of the RPG genre. It's the journey of your character going from total rookie to master, and traditionally this reflects on the difficulty curve. You start the game with an incompetent character and everything is difficult, then you character become more and more competent and things become increasingly easier. The pre 2.0 Cyberpunk was like this. Your V starts low level and combat and stealth and netrunning are hard, and then V increases in experience, buys more and more cyberware, and everything become easier. There's a very good sense of progression in there.

But level scaling ruins it. Now every enemy is as competent as V regardless if it makes sense for them to be (gonks like Valentinos can stand their own against a level 50 super augmented V). It completely removes the sense of progression, it makes V's abilities feel weaker and the enemies become bullet sponges. As a result the game feel samey and it flattens the difficulty curve. It's a dirty way of bringing balacing to the game, regardless if the game actually needs it.

It's an horrible decision and I hope it will be made optional in the near future.

I would agree with you but I'm pretty sure the difficulty setting still works so the enemies can still be your difficulty or more difficult on hard. level isn't the only factor and that's defnitely not the defining factor for the balancing. The enemy AI is all round better.

Also, the game was ridiculously easy before with ppl meme punching their way through early levels, definitely did not feel like you were progressing so much as you were always the most powerful. Enemies always felt like they were incompetent and half your level. If I had to choose between that and the update, then the update is the better choice. Frankly with the rework you become powerful faster than you did in the base game so this seems like a non-issue.

Post automatically merged: Sep 22, 2023

It's also important to add that level scaling also ruins stealth. You can't one shot enemies in the head with a silenced pistols, you need 2-3 shots and the other enemies get alerted.
It's like they developed this update with only combat as a focus, but the strenghts of this game was to be able to choose how you wanted to complete a mission.

You can still do that with the right upgrades, it' s just not a one off easy kill and I'm good with that because it made no sense that they have chromed up heads and always just die from a bullet. As for enemies being alerted, no. They just won't ignore the slumping noise of a body only few feet away from them so they may investigate if close. It just means being smart and luring one away before you do a headshot or try to deal with both simultaneously. You could also just wait to get the skills you need to execute those kills more efficiently...you know, that character progression that OP said isn't in the game. It just requires actually being strategic, as most snipers generally are.

 

[Guest 4702915]

I would agree with you but I'm pretty sure the difficulty setting still works so the enemies can still be your difficulty or more difficult on hard. level isn't the only factor and that's defnitely not the defining factor for the balancing. The enemy AI is all round better.

Also, the game was ridiculously easy before with ppl meme punching their way through early levels, definitely did not feel like you were progressing so much as you were always the most powerful. Enemies always felt like they were incompetent and half your level. If I had to choose between that and the update, then the update is the better choice. Frankly with the rework you become powerful faster than you did in the base game so this seems like a non-issue.

Post automatically merged: Sep 22, 2023

You can still do that with the right upgrades, it' s just not a one off easy kill and I'm good with that because it made no sense that they have chromed up heads and always just die from a bullet. As for enemies being alerted, no. They just won't ignore the slumping noise of a body only few feet away from them so they may investigate if close. It just means being smart and luring one away before you do a headshot, try to deal with both simultaneously or wait to get the skills you need to make fights easier...that progression OP said isn't in the game. It just requires actually being strategic, as most snipers generally are.

Sorry, but just no. I agree that we were way too UBER OP before, with us being able to clear any building via hacks without even approaching the damn street, but this is a swing WAY too far the other way.
Hacking is now, categorically, pointless. It does nothing that simply walking in and running-and-gunning can't do. It is no longer a viable alternative method of play on its own. This is a huge slap in the face for anyone trying to play that way, and an even bigger one to the source material.
Netrunners are supposed to own Night City. Now, we're all just thugs with guns in A.N.Other Vanilla Shooter.

 

[AGlezB]

Sorry, but just no. I agree that we were way too UBER OP before, with us being able to clear any building via hacks without even approaching the damn street, but this is a swing WAY too far the other way.
Hacking is now, categorically, pointless. It does nothing that simply walking in and running-and-gunning can't do. It is no longer a viable alternative method of play on its own. This is a huge slap in the face for anyone trying to play that way, and an even bigger one to the source material.
Netrunners are supposed to own Night City. Now, we're all just thugs with guns in A.N.Other Vanilla Shooter.

I totally agree with the netrunning part. Elite netrunners are supposed to be able to fry your brain from half way around the world and you can see that in the Corpo path when the whole EU space council gets taken out.

For the other part I'm very conflicted. On one hand I hate bullet-sponginess because I think is just a lazy way to inflate difficulty. On the other hand if the game is too difficult you can always lower the difficulty setting.

Right now I'm testing a fully leveled character (will all stats and perks) equipped with all Tier 5 weapons and Tier 5+ cyberware tailored to stealth headshots and I still need 2-4 headshots (starting from stealth) to take down a common enemy. That's on Very Hard, but still is too much. I think the balance needs to be tweaked a lot because with a character that powerfull I should be able to take out pretty much everyone with one headshot from stealth, regardless of difficulty.

 

[DAOWAce]

Level scaling in an RPG is perhaps the stupidest design decision one can make.

The point of an RPG is, aside from roleplaying, leveling up and progressing your character to become stronger and feel those changes over time.

Having enemies scale in level with you removes this aspect of an RPG.

Reading about how hacking is now atrocious because of this scaling (and skill tree overhaul) reinforces this being a bad decision.

I was waiting for the 2.0 update to really play, but after seeing the changes.. I can confidently say I'm sticking with 1.63 until they overhaul this overhaul.

 

[MrGuyton]

I totally agree with the netrunning part. Elite netrunners are supposed to be able to fry your brain from half way around the world and you can see that in the Corpo path when the whole EU space council gets taken out.

For the other part I'm very conflicted. On one hand I hate bullet-sponginess because I think is just a lazy way to inflate difficulty. On the other hand if the game is too difficult you can always lower the difficulty setting.

Right now I'm testing a fully leveled character (will all stats and perks) equipped with all Tier 5 weapons and Tier 5+ cyberware tailored to stealth headshots and I still need 2-4 headshots (starting from stealth) to take down a common enemy. That's on Very Hard, but still is too much. I think the balance needs to be tweaked a lot because with a character that powerfull I should be able to take out pretty much everyone with one headshot from stealth, regardless of difficulty.


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I wanted to ask about people's difficulty levels, I started a fresh playthrough last night so I can't comment but surely if they've made hard harder that's a good thing?
Has anyone got a high level normal or easy character that can comment?

 

[ShinAkira00]

Level scaling in an RPG is perhaps the stupidest design decision one can make.

The point of an RPG is, aside from roleplaying, leveling up and progressing your character to become stronger and feel those changes over time.

Having enemies scale in level with you removes this aspect of an RPG.

Reading about how hacking is now atrocious because of this scaling (and skill tree overhaul) reinforces this being a bad decision.

I was waiting for the 2.0 update to really play, but after seeing the changes.. I can confidently say I'm sticking with 1.63 until they overhaul this overhaul.

Except you are stronger, you have skills no one else in the game has. You are taking on Max tac on your own, Arasaka on your own and now Dog Town. You quite literally are the strongest merc in Night City.

I'm sure there may be some valid criticism in there somewhere if you guys took the time to explain instead of just being contrarian with the most extreme takes. "Level Scaling RUINS the game"? Really...does it really ruin the entire game? Come on mates, lets do better.