Level scaling ruins the game

[Tarille]

When scaling, distributing points is ... a formality. Don't assign points and enemies will adapt to the weaker one anyway. Distribute them and the weakest opponent will be a challenge - and he shouldn't.

But... That's not at all how scaling works.

Enemies scale based on levels. Not point distribution or equipment rarity or any of the other myriad of power variables a player has available to them.

If you don't distribute points, you won't make enemies weaker.

Also, with the number of ways to gain additional power besides levels, even the most powerful opponents become pushovers to your character.

Scaling excludes RPG, the essence of which is features, indicators and their growth.

The essence of RPG is playing a role. Hence being referred to as a Role Playing Game.

Growth is more of an adventure game thing, where you go from a starting point to the end of an adventure with a path of growth.

I don't understand why games with choices and a plot are described as RPGs

Same... But I probably have different reasoning for my confusion.

My qualm with "RPG's" is that in many cases someone slaps in some stats or equipment and all of a sudden it's an "RPG" even if the actual "Role Playing" of such a game is weak or even non-existent (Like the entire "ARPG" genre is mostly just a vapid loot pinata simulator where not only is your role weak it gets further watered down by loot grinding via farming areas over and over and thus killing named enemies again and again)

Your issue seems to be the opposite. You seem to equate Role Playing as "Get stats"

The plot and does not explain scaling.

The plot (And overall setting) provide more substance FOR scaling than AGAINST it.

With scaling, you get the idea that all the gangs (And corporation goons) are relatively equally powerful. There are people who are pretty strong around that justify MaxTac and provide tangible feedback in regards to why there are so many factions at odds with each other. With V's ability to surpass the generic scaling showing how they, uniquely, get strong enough to do things like single handedly take on Arasaka or go toe to toe with Adam Smasher.

Without scaling, you have to question why the gang in the highest level area who's clearly far more powerful than everyone else in the city haven't seized control over the entire city?

In your typical fantasy setting, lack of scaling makes more sense. Early game you fight things like rats and wolves and the like, while end game you're facing down Dragons, Liches and other powerful beings. So having scaling would make no sense having meagre pests like rats have equal stats to giant mythical dragons.

But in Cyberpunk, you're fighting the same type of enemies throughout the game. You start off fighting cyberware enhanced gonks and you end the game fighting cyberware enhanced gonks. There's no reason why one random gonk should be so much stronger than another, thus scaling helps keep all these gonks being on a relatively even footing against your character (I say relative because yes, they do get stronger over time. But relative to your character they roughly stay the same - Then all the extra bonuses your character gets lets you scale higher than enemies)

 

[SigilFey]

Overall, I don't normally like scaling, but I think it works more or less in CP2077. It's balanced in such a way as nothing is ever a push-over, nothing is ever overwhelmingly spongey, but the player still gets a sense of power creep as they progress.

So, there's a sense of increased power and versatility as V levels up, but there doesn't seem to be the Action-RPG silliness of a high-level character flattening 30 enemies with one shot each and taking virtually no damage in return. Everything stays dangerous, but I still feel that it gets easier as the levels and gear roll in.

I was honestly a little hesitant when I heard that all enemies now scaled, but there have only been a few times where it felt like an NPC took way too much damage before dropping. Generally, I don't really notice it.

 

[jeancastex]

Everything stays dangerous, but I still feel that it gets easier as the levels and gear roll in.

Sometimes too easier. Netrunners become OP around level 25 on very hard. You just kill all ennemies (except bosses) by looking at them with infinite ram.

 

[GrimReaper801]

I don't get how this is still apparently an issue.

When scaling was first introduced, sure, there was a period of adaptation and due to how various games had implemented level scaling before I was hesitant at first too. It's been over a year now though.... It should be clear to anyone by now that level scaling does not really affect the feeling of advancement. It's very clear that V is on a completely different curve than the NPCs. You get significantly stronger than them. Unless you're voluntarily ignoring the game's systems and voluntarily gimp yourself, by the end of the game you're still essentially a god of war that sows death and destruction wherever you go. Regardless of your chosen build.

I'm not a fan of level scaling but it can be done right and work just fine in an RPG.

I don't think CDPR's implementation is perfect mind you. The stat checks scaling with you is just absurd. Those should be static. Find X stat check requiring Y amount of Z stat only to come back later and find out it's higher because you're higher level is just dumb. I wouldn't care if that same check was a static 20 stat check throughout and I was locked out because I chose another route. I am fine with that, that's part of living your role within a role playing game. If I see a check that requires 5 of a stat and decide to invest to get there only to find out it's now 8? That's just bad.

And I wish enemies didn't all scale on the same curve. The average gangoon shouldn't be on the same curve as the average Arasaka agent.

But, overall, the scaling works. It just seems like it's one of these things where people just can't see beyond their own preconceived notions. They see something they don't like and thus it cannot be good/work well.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

But, overall, the scaling works. It just seems like it's one of these things where people just can't see beyond their own preconceived notions. They see something they don't like and thus it cannot be good/work well.

Funny enough, I remember people also complaining before the change... It made no sense that the same random enemy become incredibly more powerful hundred meters further in the next neighborhood

I don't think CDPR's implementation is perfect mind you. The stat checks scaling with you is just absurd. Those should be static. Find X stat check requiring Y amount of Z stat only to come back later and find out it's higher because you're higher level is just dumb. I wouldn't care if that same check was a static 20 stat check throughout and I was locked out because I chose another route. I am fine with that, that's part of living your role within a role playing game. If I see a check that requires 5 of a stat and decide to invest to get there only to find out it's now 8? That's just bad.

Yeah, it's (very) bad but they couldn't let skill checks statics like before... If someone, early game, decide to explore any neighborhood outside of Watson wouldn't be able to pass any check at all, even by investing every point he earned in one single attribute.

 

[GrimReaper801]

Funny enough, I remember people also complaining before the change... It made no sense that the same random enemy become incredibly more powerful hundred meters further in the next neighborhood

Highly agree with this, just like a ton of people were disappointed in the skill trees because they were essentially meaningless but then people were complaining about the skill trees being.... too meaningful I guess lol.

You can't please everyone. That much is certain.

Yeah, it's (very) bad but they couldn't let skill checks statics like before... If someone, early game, decide to explore any neighborhood outside of Watson wouldn't be able to pass any check at all, even by investing every point he earned in one single attribute.

This, though, I completely disagree with.

The way checks where built into the game before, they could have easily reassigned values throughout the game and leave them static. Players would have encountered checks requiring low levels of a certain stats all the way to the maximum requirements regardless of where they are. Additionally, this would give you a reason to revisit certain areas.

Even if they had to change all these checks manually. It really wouldn't be that time consuming and would be leagues better than the absurdity of scaling checks.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

The way checks where built into the game before, they could have easily reassigned values throughout the game and leave them static. Players would have encountered checks requiring low levels of a certain stats all the way to the maximum requirements regardless of where they are. Additionally, this would give you a reason to revisit certain areas.

Except... You can not revisit most of the areas afterward. Most of times, accesses are closed/locked after completing the quest, GIGs. So no, revisiting the areas in which you were not able to pass a check is not an option. Or they would have to change that too and make it possible to revisit all the quest/GIG locations

But I agree, it's pretty bad in the current state, it looks like a band-aid on an already shaky system. Let's hope they will think to implement a better system directly from the start in Orion.

 

[GrimReaper801]

Except... You can not revisit most of the areas afterward. Most of times, accesses are closed/locked after completing the quest, GIGs. So no, revisiting the areas in which you were not able to pass a check is not an option. Or they would have to change that too and make it possible to revisit all the quest/GIG locations

But I agree, it's pretty bad in the current state, it looks like a band-aid on an already shaky system. Let's hope they will think to implement a better system directly from the start in Orion.

I want to disagree on most checks being in areas that get closed off but, realistically, you've played far more than I have and chances are you are correct.

But still, even if that's the case, it's no different than it already is. If you can't open it now, you won't be able to open it later anyway since that check will have both scaled and become inaccessible, regardless of scaling, these areas become inaccessible. Static checks like I explained would give you an incentive to revisit those you can revisit. If an area is to become inaccessible, checks should be lower anyway.

Static checks have been the norm... essentially forever because, well, it works. It's how it should be. A lock doesn't become easier or harder to unlock. Your character just becomes proficient at unlocking it or it doesn't.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

I want to disagree on most checks being in areas that get closed off but, realistically, you've played far more than I have and chances are you are correct.

But still, even if that's the case, it's no different than it already is. If you can't open it now, you won't be able to open it later anyway since that check will have both scaled and become inaccessible, regardless of scaling, these areas become inaccessible. Static checks like I explained would give you an incentive to revisit those you can revisit. If an area is to become inaccessible, checks should be lower anyway.

Static checks have been the norm... essentially forever because, well, it works. It's how it should be. A lock doesn't become easier or harder to unlock. Your character just becomes proficient at unlocking it or it doesn't.

The major issue that you are not able to revisit areas, most of times. No idea, why areas are locked after, but I assume there is a reason... Just one exemple : the Konpeki. The whole building is totally unaccessible after the quest (If you didn't pick up the katana or the egg, it's dead^^).


To be honest, I have no idea how they could define a value for skill checks knowning that players can face pretty all skill checks at almost any level... Yes, for the ones during the main quests, it would be easier. But for all the other, you can complete pretty much every GIGs and quests on the map in any order at any level, before even starting the main quest in Act 2, so...

Before it worked because "high level" skill checks were "protected" by high level enemies, which prevented low level players to access them. It's no longer the case.


So I agree, definied skill check value would be far better, but as long as you're ble to revisit the areas in which you failed to pass the checks, but is not the case.

 

[Tarille]

The major issue that you are not able to revisit areas, most of times. No idea, why areas are locked after, but I assume there is a reason...

At a guess, I'd say it comes from the state of areas.

Like, during a mission an area might be full of enemies, but after V's gone through and cleared the place out? Do they put in normal NPC's doing normal things in that area? Do they simply respawn the enemies that have no reason being there? Do they just leave the space empty?

Either they put in additional work to make the areas make sense after a particular mission, or they leave it with potentially jarring states that can ruin immersion (While being something that the game has specifically tried for)

It's possible that some places could make sense being repopulated with what you encounter during a mission... But then you'd also have to diffuse any mission related triggers that can occur in those locations after the mission.

Then finally, you have the thing where sometimes the default state of a location is locked to prevent getting access to that area early. Then it opens up for the mission (Maybe through an entrance that only works during that mission), and goes back to its default locked state afterwards.

 

[jeancastex]

At a guess, I'd say it comes from the state of areas.

I think that's because the "open-world" team didn't had access and didn't want to interfer with Quest related areas.
It might be complex even after the quest is finnished (and we know they didn't had enough time to finnish the game), like the Cloud: depending on how the player played the quest, you need to adapt, you can't let the player enter like nothing happened if he just killed everyone last time lol.

 

[GrimReaper801]

The major issue that you are not able to revisit areas, most of times. No idea, why areas are locked after, but I assume there is a reason... Just one exemple : the Konpeki. The whole building is totally unaccessible after the quest (If you didn't pick up the katana or the egg, it's dead^^).


To be honest, I have no idea how they could define a value for skill checks knowning that players can face pretty all skill checks at almost any level... Yes, for the ones during the main quests, it would be easier. But for all the other, you can complete pretty much every GIGs and quests on the map in any order at any level, before even starting the main quest in Act 2, so...

Before it worked because "high level" skill checks were "protected" by high level enemies, which prevented low level players to access them. It's no longer the case.


So I agree, definied skill check value would be far better, but as long as you're ble to revisit the areas in which you failed to pass the checks, but is not the case.

I partially get what you're saying and I at least partially agree with what you're saying.

The fact that some areas are inaccessible, to me, is a non issue. Players not being able to revisit some areas isn't unheard of in RPGs. I'm personally fine with that. If you don't go out exploring, that's the price to pay; you miss out on stuff.

Plus, for some at least, it makes sense lore-wise. Konpeki, in my opinion, being completely inaccessible makes perfect sense. If the emperor of basically half the world was murdered in a hotel, you can be sure that hotel would be locked down for a long time while every nook and cranny is investigated with a fine tooth comb. Especially in a world where people can turn invisible. Considering V's story is *supposed* to happen over several weeks at most, not the months we players can stretch it out to, it makes sense that Konpeki never re-opens over the course of the game.

Ultimately, whether checks are static or not doesn't change the fact these areas will become inaccessible once you leave. I genuinely don't understand your argument about this.

Right now, if you encounter a 5 tech stat check and can't pass that check, you'll miss out. In a different playthrough, you may invest in those 5 tech point but do the quest at a higher level and the stat check is now 10 tech and you'll still miss out. Which is just plain stupid. If that tech check was a static 5, you may miss out and be locked out on your first playthrough but on your second, regardless of level, you won't miss out.

High level checks don't necessarily have to be hidden behind high level enemies either. It just has to make sense. You shouldn't be able to break into a high security Arasaka computer with a level 5 INT check for example.

You can hide a 20 STR check behind a level 5 enemy just fine. That's exactly where revisiting areas comes into play. Make a note of it and come back once you have the 20 STR. Or don't come back because you chose a different role than the strong brawler type. It's a necessary sacrifice. I don't personally think you should be able to see everything in this kind of RPG with just the one playthrough. It dilutes the role playing aspect of it all if you can be everything in my opinion.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

I partially get what you're saying and I at least partially agree with what you're saying.

The fact that some areas are inaccessible, to me, is a non issue. Players not being able to revisit some areas isn't unheard of in RPGs. I'm personally fine with that. If you don't go out exploring, that's the price to pay; you miss out on stuff.

Plus, for some at least, it makes sense lore-wise. Konpeki, in my opinion, being completely inaccessible makes perfect sense. If the emperor of basically half the world was murdered in a hotel, you can be sure that hotel would be locked down for a long time while every nook and cranny is investigated with a fine tooth comb. Especially in a world where people can turn invisible. Considering V's story is *supposed* to happen over several weeks at most, not the months we players can stretch it out to, it makes sense that Konpeki never re-opens over the course of the game.

Ultimately, whether checks are static or not doesn't change the fact these areas will become inaccessible once you leave. I genuinely don't understand your argument about this.

Right now, if you encounter a 5 tech stat check and can't pass that check, you'll miss out. In a different playthrough, you may invest in those 5 tech point but do the quest at a higher level and the stat check is now 10 tech and you'll still miss out. Which is just plain stupid. If that tech check was a static 5, you may miss out and be locked out on your first playthrough but on your second, regardless of level, you won't miss out.

High level checks don't necessarily have to be hidden behind high level enemies either. It just has to make sense. You shouldn't be able to break into a high security Arasaka computer with a level 5 INT check for example.

You can hide a 20 STR check behind a level 5 enemy just fine. That's exactly where revisiting areas comes into play. Make a note of it and come back once you have the 20 STR. Or don't come back because you chose a different role than the strong brawler type. It's a necessary sacrifice. I don't personally think you should be able to see everything in this kind of RPG with just the one playthrough. It dilutes the role playing aspect of it all if you can be everything in my opinion.

What I mean, it's to keep skill checks "relevant", devs have to more or less adjust the values to the players level (in short, more you level up, more difficult skill checks become). So to define and set skill check values, devs have to somehow know around which level players will encounter them.

In game like BG3, Pathfinder, Rogue Trader or most of RPGs with skill checks, it's rather easy, devs can have a good idea around which level will be the players when exploring the different areas of the game. It was also true with the "old" version of Cyberpunk, thanks to the enemies (a level 5 players would never have entered in an area with level 30 enemies... They would have destroyed him right away before encountering the checks).

But now, there is nothing (or almost) to "guess" the player level anymore... If you add the fact you can't revisit the areas, I assume that's why they chose this "weird" skill check level scalling.
To be honest, if you ask me how to do it better in the current state of the game, without modifying anything else, I would have no idea...
- Set skill checks "low"? Quite bad mid-end game.
- Set skill checks "high"? Quite bad early-mid game.
- Set skill checks randomly? Quite bad during the whole game.
There is no "good" solution in my opinion, that why it seem more like a band-aid on a system which was never intended to work that way.

 

[GrimReaper801]

What I mean, it's to keep skill checks "relevant", devs have to more or less adjust the values to the players level (in short, more you level up, more difficult skill checks become). So to define and set skill check values, devs have to somehow know around which level players will encounter them.

In game like BG3, Pathfinder, Rogue Trader or most of RPGs with skill checks, it's rather easy, devs can have a good idea around which level will be the players when exploring the different areas of the game. It was also true with the "old" version of Cyberpunk, thanks to the enemies (a level 5 players would never have entered in an area with level 30 enemies... They would have destroyed him right away before encountering the checks).

But now, there is nothing (or almost) to "guess" the player level anymore... If you add the fact you can't revisit the areas, I assume that's why they chose this "weird" skill check level scalling.
To be honest, if you ask me how to do it better in the current state of the game, without modifying anything else, I would have no idea...
- Set skill checks "low"? Quite bad mid-end game.
- Set skill checks "high"? Quite bad early-mid game.
- Set skill checks randomly? Quite bad during the whole game.
There is no "good" solution in my opinion, that why it seem more like a band-aid on a system which was never intended to work that way.

Ok, now I get your argument.

Thing is, for main quest, it's fairly easy to accurately guess how high players can be by the time they reach X point. For main quests, it really isn't an issue. For side GIGs, sure, it can be a "problem".

I put quotation marks there because this goes back to my other point that if you can't pass the check then it just is what it is. You chose to not play a netrunner, you miss out on a few netrunner centric things. There is nothing wrong with that.

It's no different in BG3 to be honest. Even as soon as the first act, there are plenty of checks you can get to very early. You aren't really meant to but you can stumble upon them. You can, if you want, head straight towards Karlach before heading into the grove if you want. You'll get exposed to a lot of checks you'll be level two for when you're really expected to be 3-4 for. Those two levels can have a tremendous effect on those rolls. Not to mention that BG3 is full of checks that can have a major incidence on the story and various arcs.

Granted, in a game like BG3 there is an element of luck to stat checks that isn't present in CP2077. You can, theoretically, be the luckiest level 2 bard in all of DND that somehow convinces an incredibly powerful undead creature to kill itself.

But the argument is that if you get to a roll and can't pass it, it just is what it is. Your character misses out on that. It's one of the base principles of role playing games.

Stat checks in CP shouldn't be any different. You either can pass them or you can't. Obviously, if you let players start specific content in which they are locked into until they finish it, like Konpeki, you need to make sur that all mandatory checks are low enough but that's just basic game design that would apply regardless of scaling or not. If they can return, then it really doesn't matter, it's up to the player to decide the path to follow for their character.

And nothing can be worse than a locked door at an abandoned cabin in the middle of the desert magically becoming more advanced. I honestly can't wrap my head around how CDPR thought that was a good idea.

 

[Tarille]

Thing is, for main quest, it's fairly easy to accurately guess how high players can be by the time they reach X point.

Actually, it isn't.

Since a player can literally be anywhere between level 1-50 BEFORE EVEN DOING A MAIN STORY MISSION.

Players can be similarly leveled at any point during the main story. Such is the price of having so much side content that can be done at any time (Even more so that a vast majority of side content is located in Watson, the place you're locked to during Act 1)

To be honest, if you ask me how to do it better in the current state of the game, without modifying anything else, I would have no idea...

Within the confines of the current game, a more vague scaling option would probably function.

Grade each possible skill check "Easy" "Medium" or "Hard" in difficulty and then have each of these have specific values that scale based on your level. With them being roughly equated to how heavily you've invested into that particular stat.

So "Easy" might simply be 3-5. Something you can do if you've just got a few points in a stat.
"Medium" might end up being like a 5-10 suggesting you've put a decent amount of focus into the stat.
While "Hard" would be like an 8-18 which is considering you focusing on the stat pretty heavily.

You might still encounter situations where you see a skill check, then come back to it with the stats to do it and then find out it has increased, but it should be overall less likely to occur with the smaller ranges of each skill check (Which are spanning the entirety of 1-50 so you'd overall need a bunch of levels just to see many things go up by 1 point)

 

[GrimReaper801]

Actually, it isn't.

Since a player can literally be anywhere between level 1-50 BEFORE EVEN DOING A MAIN STORY MISSION.

Players can be similarly leveled at any point during the main story. Such is the price of having so much side content that can be done at any time (Even more so that a vast majority of side content is located in Watson, the place you're locked to during Act 1)

Actually, it is.

It's very basic math to add up the experience one can earn from doing the missions required to get to a point. If someone gets to level 50 before hitting even the very first main mission; they are vastly over leveled anyway and the entire argument is moot at that point.

 

[Tarille]

Actually, it is.

It's very basic math to add up the experience one can earn from doing the missions required to get to a point. If someone gets to level 50 before hitting even the very first main mission; they are vastly over leveled anyway and the entire argument is moot at that point.

Actually, it isn't.

Not only is the fact that side quests exist to increase level, there are times when you get multiple options of "Main Story Mission"

For example, at the start of Act 2, you have the possibility to do Judy's missions, Panam's missions or Takemura's missions.

Then of course, you can open up the possibility to access Phantom Liberty and do some/all of those main story missions too.

CP's main story isn't linear enough to be able to accurately quantify what level any person will be when doing them.

You could always lowball what the "Minimum" level should be and then put skill checks based around that... But why not just put all skill checks to 1 in that case if you're not going to actually account for player progression?

 

[GrimReaper801]

Actually, it isn't.

Not only is the fact that side quests exist to increase level, there are times when you get multiple options of "Main Story Mission"

For example, at the start of Act 2, you have the possibility to do Judy's missions, Panam's missions or Takemura's missions.

Then of course, you can open up the possibility to access Phantom Liberty and do some/all of those main story missions too.

CP's main story isn't linear enough to be able to accurately quantify what level any person will be when doing them.

You could always lowball what the "Minimum" level should be and then put skill checks based around that... But why not just put all skill checks to 1 in that case if you're not going to actually account for player progression?

Again, it's very basic math. you don't even need to lowball.

Plenty of other games with multiple threads to follow in an open world have done it. I wonder how?

I'm not going to engage is some back and forth on basic math. Again, this is purely for mandatory checks. So even if if only those were lowballed, nobody would care.

I'll agree to disagres.

 

[Tarille]

Plenty of other games with multiple threads to follow in an open world have done it. I wonder how?

Typically, they lowball things. Or have static values that make you return at a later time.

Again, this is purely for mandatory checks.

Of which there are very few. There's like a couple of them, one of which is always super low (Accessing PL there's like a Body check of 3) and one that was updated to be more reasonable (I.e. Low)

The vast majority of checks are by their very nature, optional. Simply because skill checks are an expression of your build, ergo their requirement would mean requiring a certain build.

Even in side content, there are simply no "Mandatory" skill checks. Every piece of content is completable without passing a skill check. Certain outcomes and bonuses might be behind a skill check, but those aren't required for completion.

Which holds true for many of the "Other games" too. Most of those have skill checks being optional too. Any tasks you NEED to do either don't require a skill check, or utilize a stupid low requirement that you'd have by default.

 

[CreepySpydre]

The skill requirements to do whatever you need to do, should be set, and not rise up with the level of the character..
With the friend/foe characters in the world being on par with you, the player, makes more sense with a leveling system. Why should Maelstrom be so easy to destroy on their home terf in Watson, but near impossible in city center. It makes NO sense and is very annoying and anti-immersive. Also, the way the level system was before the auto level, the other gangs (like the Valentinos) would just move into Watson and destroy without any effort the Maelstrom Gang.
Now with the level system is, it makes it more real. The gangs are about on par with each other, for V to deal with, barring the unique features each gangs have.... or suppose to have. This extends to V, as well. Does it not seem anti-immersive if you clear out Watson, do the Heist, then go to City Center only to have a ganger look at V and kill her in one shot..... because the unholy power of the Center boosted them.... for reasons.
Now the level system gives you resources to choose what skills, and abilities you want V to have, to make her stronger, instead of tying it to a number beside the word "Level".