Level scaling ruins the game

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I totally agree with the netrunning part. Elite netrunners are supposed to be able to fry your brain from half way around the world and you can see that in the Corpo path when the whole EU space council gets taken out.
This is pretty much against the lore (though I will admit I am not as familiar with the RED version as I am the 2020 version of the TTRPG). Pre-2023, sure a Netrunner could be half-way around the world. However, this presented issues with party coherence for an RP session. The runner would never have to go anywhere with the rest of the group, forcing a GM into running two separate games pretty much. In RED, they may have restored an international internet function, though that would run the same risks, but as I said I am not as familiar with the lore of RED.

Then came Rache Bartmoss. He crashes the internet with his release of daemons, well with his death anyway (a failsafe, and I am not sure there would be a body, if I recall right, I think they used an orbital mass driver on his location-they did not want him dead, they wanted him erased). At this point the Corps had to remake things and everything became localized, there was no sharing of data across an international internet, everything was kept on local internal nets. The 'runner now needed to actually go on location to hack into a net. My belief is that Talsorian did this to keep a party together when doing jobs, now the 'runner had to be there and take risks.
 
But with level scaling, aren't enemies now getting those "bonus hit points and bonus damage which was inexplicably linked to your character level" as you described?
Technically, yes. This is what I mean when I say it could have been better-communicated.

You can think of it as "V and every enemy magically get more powerful because of level, more hot points, damage, everything".

Or you can think of it as "Because everything cancels-out at all times, nobody is getting more powerful in terms of damage or hit points due to level".

Since they are functionally equivalent, I prefer the second option. I wish CDPR had communicated it that way instead. They'd have avoided a whole lot of criticism I bet.
 
That's true, Toreador. If you and the opponent are gaining the same stats each level you are equal, and it it comes down to the extras you learned that your opponent didn't in the form of perks and new abilities.

My first comment, comment #134 in this thread addresses this though. If you level in too much of a jack of all trades way you may get weaker if the level scaling is too strong. I haven't played since the update enough to confirm if it happens here but it absolutely happens in other games with level scaling.
 
The difficulty matters more to me than "what an RPG is supposed to be like".
Plus, it's not exactly true that you don't get much stronger as you progress through this game even if enemies scale.

Once you hit level ~30-40 and start unlocking the Tier 5 Cyberwares you pretty much become immortal. Blood Pump + Biomonitor + Health tree alone guarantee you surviving entire encounters even on Very Hard with everyone shooting you from all over the place. And that's not even accounting Sandevistan in the mix, or Berserk if you like punching things, which makes you immortal for its duration + heals you to full when it's over.

Weapons themselves also become stupidly powerful.

SMG and Assault riffles just completely rip through enemies. I heard Sniper rifles are still extremely strong. Pistols and Revolvers feel dummy strong even when I don't have a single point in their skill tree. Blunt weapons have a lot of useful perks and benefit from Berserk. Katanas get their finishers extremely fast, which heal you, and they abuse Sandevistan the best. Shotguns and LMGs are still a little weak but their knockdown chances and the very high chance to obliterate enemies still make them a force to be rekoned with. I can't talk about Netrunning because I have only ever did 1 playthrough with it and I find it boring.

You got Iconics, and then slowly start finding Tier 5++ regular weapons in the city which you can mod. Elite enemies are a little too much of bullet sponges and they're difficult to make flinch but half of the Elite enemies wield LMGs which have terrible movement and AI, or Snipers which crumble the moment you get close to them.

I do miss certain enemies being higher level than you in some parts of NC like City Center though, I thought this was nice. You could still visit those places, just not mess with enemies until you leveled up. It made sense since the strongest gangs/corps are the ones holding these parts of the city.
 
I think the level-scaling was an attempt to increase player freedom and actually make the in-game relationships between factions feel more logical. On the freedom side, V can now actually go anywhere after the heist rather than having to complete districts in a specific order to avoid one-shot flatlines from basic goons. This increases playthrough variability in addition to letting players do content in the order they find most fun, rather than what the recommended levels dictate. On the lore side, I think level scaling makes the world, especially gang conflicts, feel more believable. If one Valentino could walk over to Watson and solo the whole district because Maelstrom members were always so much weaker due to fixed levels, why haven't they? If Jackie had stayed with Padre and the lads, he'd have become an NPC capable of facetanking everything in Konpeki using the old scaling logic. Truly the biggest mistake of his career.

Right now, everyone is learning the new system and it's extremely doubtful that anyone has gotten to do a full run from a fresh save in the time since 2.0 dropped. That makes it really challenging to gauge the new balance of the game, especially at high levels. We might discover that after playing with 2.0 for a while, things like bullet sponges or underwhelming player options are entirely avoidable with a proper build and understanding of new synergies. But it's also possible that the new balance is actually a bit off and shoehorns people into a handful of viable options. Ideally, you'd get to feel powerful endgame because you got gud and your build synergies outpace the options available to enemies rather than a simple numbers difference via levels. We just don't have any way to know the reality of things until more people have finished 2.0 and uncovered the new build meta.
Yes!
 
I totally agree with the netrunning part. Elite netrunners are supposed to be able to fry your brain from half way around the world and you can see that in the Corpo path when the whole EU space council gets taken out.

For the other part I'm very conflicted. On one hand I hate bullet-sponginess because I think is just a lazy way to inflate difficulty. On the other hand if the game is too difficult you can always lower the difficulty setting.

Right now I'm testing a fully leveled character (will all stats and perks) equipped with all Tier 5 weapons and Tier 5+ cyberware tailored to stealth headshots and I still need 2-4 headshots (starting from stealth) to take down a common enemy. That's on Very Hard, but still is too much. I think the balance needs to be tweaked a lot because with a character that powerfull I should be able to take out pretty much everyone with one headshot from stealth, regardless of difficulty.

But you have a hacking OS instead of an Apogee or even a Falcon that would allow you to shoot 3-4 times before they even register the hit, killing them instantly while also extending how long it's up for, giving more damage too. You're also using a Liberty. Liberty is one of the lowest base damage semi-auto pistols in the game. The Unity is higher than it, then there's the Nue which boasts 25% armor pen in addition to its much higher base damage, then there's the highest of Tamayura that has the same 25% armor pen. You even neglected the mod that converts some damage to Thermal, which can increase your damage further since most targets are weak to Fire damage on top of Fire damage being unaffected by armor.

Essentially, you're not optimizing for one shotting from stealth. You've attempted to get as many multipliers as you can, but failed to get a strong enough base damage and ignored things like Sandevistan and Optical Camo. This isn't Skyrim where you can turn any weapon into a nuke from stealth.

You need to get the right gear and the right 'ware for the gig, choom.
 
But you have a hacking OS instead of an Apogee or even a Falcon that would allow you to shoot 3-4 times before they even register the hit, killing them instantly while also extending how long it's up for, giving more damage too. You're also using a Liberty. Liberty is one of the lowest base damage semi-auto pistols in the game. The Unity is higher than it, then there's the Nue which boasts 25% armor pen in addition to its much higher base damage, then there's the highest of Tamayura that has the same 25% armor pen. You even neglected the mod that converts some damage to Thermal, which can increase your damage further since most targets are weak to Fire damage on top of Fire damage being unaffected by armor.

Essentially, you're not optimizing for one shotting from stealth. You've attempted to get as many multipliers as you can, but failed to get a strong enough base damage and ignored things like Sandevistan and Optical Camo. This isn't Skyrim where you can turn any weapon into a nuke from stealth.

You need to get the right gear and the right 'ware for the gig, choom.

Yeah. It's been said before. That build was minutes into the game and I didn't have anything better.

That was then, this is now:

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Man, I remember making these arguments back with Oblivion.

I bet it went something like this:

- we've revamped everything!
- oh no, combat is too easy now in places!
- do we have time to rebalance all combat?
- daft question, let's throw in the level scaling system we put on ice and move on to Witcher 4.
 
I'm not going to re-read 9 pages, but most if not all of this has probably been said already. Anyway:

I disagree that level scaling is an inherently bad thing in an RPG, and I could not disagree more that it "ruins the game".

Not being able to steamroll early-game enemies with a higher-level character does not mean there is no sense of progression; the sense of progression is in your abilities, weapons, etc. being stronger.
Yeah, the enemies get stronger, too, but that simply incentivises planning how you're going to build your V so that you can hold your own or even breeze through encounters.


Let's look at the two biggest CDPR games, Witcher 3 and Cyberpunk 2077. One doesn't have level scaling (except optional upscaling), the other now does.

Does that automatically make one of the games superior in terms of how good an RPG it is? No, it does not.

Does it mean one of the games provides more of a sense of progression? No, not really. I mean, sure, you can steamroll low-level enemies with a high-level Geralt, but all that's really happened is you've gained better abilities, weapons, etc. Which is exactly what happens in Cyberpunk as well.


You can even come up with justifications for why formerly low-level gangers now scale in level:
They drive around the city, and fight other gangs whenever they see those, so why shouldn't their skills be going up just like V's do?
Gangers also are no strangers to stealing, so why couldn't they have stolen better items with which to replace what they originally had?
They kidnap people, so why couldn't they have learned skills from victims?


I'm only playing on Normal, like I always do the first time I play a game, but early on I started to notice how my character started to get stronger and have an easier time disposing of enemies. By now (level 15) I feel my V's on an entirely different progression level.
Despite the enemies scaling with my character's level.


My playstyle with RPGs always includes purposely avoiding the main quest for long periods of time, which in a game like Witcher 3 (i.e. no level scaling) can make main quests ridiculously easy. Now, some people enjoy that, but I usually would rather have a challenge DESPITE my playstyle. Level scaling provides exactly that.
 
My playstyle with RPGs always includes purposely avoiding the main quest for long periods of time, which in a game like Witcher 3 (i.e. no level scaling) can make main quests ridiculously easy.
Good point :)
I never use level scaling in The Witcher 3, but after experiencing it in Cyberpunk, I will give it a shot the next time I replay TW3. Maybe I'll avoid a "bad" habit that I have while playing which is to "conscientiously" try to complete quests at the level they're supposed to be completed. Instead of having the freedom to complete the quests I want or quests that seem appropriate to complete at that time. And I have to say folloning the quest level is not an easy task, you level up faster than quests you receive generally...
 
Cyberpunk - level scaling - no new game plus
Witcher3 - no level scaling - new game plus
Weird.

My playstyle with RPGs always includes purposely avoiding the main quest for long periods of time
Depends on how you do it. If you clean up an area after the main quest before moving on it is fine. Exploring areas before the quest can lead to weird situations or even derail the game.
 
Personally, I have mixed feelings about the skill testing being leveled, or at least a bit out of touch. I like the npc's leveled at least I can be level 20 and still do Dino's quests, or example. That being said, the attribute testing is way out of wack.
In the Delimain quest to reset Dels mind, only one attribute made the mark, in the whole gig, for me. The amount of total attribute tests through out the gig was more for a level 45 or greater, not a level 23, which I was at the time. Also, what made it worse as the hints and path was so messed up I was going around in circles, until I stopped, scan the area and manage to overcome the confusion and electrified floor, semi ignoring the game hints.
 
That being said, the attribute testing is way out of wack.
That's an different type of level scaling, one that I think makes absolutely no sense.

Think W3 has a toggle for it?
It does, but unless they changed it in the next-gen update the setting only upscales lower-level enemies; a complete level scaling system would also downscale higher-level enemies.

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To add to my previous post, there are RPGs I love in both the "enemy levels scale with you" and "enemies have static levels" categories. I adjust my playstyle to fit each game, if necessary, and that's perfectly fine. I can't expect to be able to effectively play every game in the same way, even within a single genre, that's a simple fact.

If Cyberpunk hadn't been changed to have level scaling, I would play it more similarly to how I play Witcher 3 -- but because it was changed, I play it more similarly to how I play Skyrim. No problem.
 

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I bought this game at launch on a ps4, and despite the bugs and crashes every twenty minutes, I stuck with it until they abandoned last gen after duping people. I recently got a new gen X-box a few months before 2.0 and I had a great time. so, I bought this game twice. I tried the new update and the dlc and the level scaling has literally ruined the game for me, it ruined hacking for sure, but more than that, the attribute checks are awful. If i do an early mission at a high level, the checks are too high - I did 'till death do you part' at level 38, and i needed a 19 technical to open a door. Even when you get the points you need, you go back and the check has raised. Another mission where i have a body check in dialogue, and it went from 6 to 12 in a few levels. I thought I could go around it with gorilla arms, which at base up your body check by 2, but no, when i tried this, the check raised again, this time to 14. You'll never make them, and its so upsetting because that's how I like to play, like I'm playing a role in some kind of game. Of all the things they changed, the element that allowed you have fun is gone now. its a frustrating grind to always feel like your doing something wrong. So, I'm officially done with the game, and I never got to do that perfect run I planned because what is the point if every enemy will always be the same difficulty? Or if I can't feel progress? Or enjoy this supposed RPG the way I want. I can't tell you how important those attribute checks are to me and my playthrough, but that's gone now, without even a say, like that was always the issue. Level scaling is such a terrible choice and I'm only here because they couldn't care less at this point. But this should be a lesson, this is what sticking by them gets you, just more disappointment, no choice in the matter, no new game plus, no respec options during the game, (oh, one time, how generous). It sucks because this could be a great game, and has routinely almost been one, but its always one step forward, two steps back.
Still waiting on my Quadra, too.
 
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I must honestly admit, that these days 2.0 is no more a problem to me, even level scaling, perks and other changes. The more I play the more I learn about new system and how to exploit all its pros and cons to my advantage. Maybe a time needed to adapt has passed already or I just learnt how to efficiently move over to new play styles.
On hard dificulty, I have no problems with either stealth head-shooting, running away from police chase and melee fighting many cops or maxtac agents at 5 stars. On max - very hard it's also doable, but for me it was just more frustrating, so I stick to Hard.
I was angry for CDP when they took away all the medkits and grenades, decreased importance of crafting, did all those bad choices to the game. But I learnt how to play and now have fun with what we have. The Dogtown district, influencing so much on the game in quests and characters, creating much more dense and intensive atmosphere, it made such a new environment I like to be part of.
After I complete actual Nomad with pistols/melee build, I'm going to start netrunner build again. Netrunning was my first completed game as a Punk - an obvious choice in Cyberpunk - but on old system. I'm very curious how netrunning works now with 2.0 changes, I'm eager to check Corpo netrunner build with smart guns. I bet I will adapt very fast and will have a lot of fun.
 
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Prior to 2.0, you hit 50 or close to that rather quickly, and 90% of enemies were grey giving you a massive advantage. At that point, your build is tertiary as whatever you do you pretty much one-shot things. With 2.0 they tried to balance things. They nerfed universal weapon types/groups and they added scaling so that the game doesn't become irrelevant as soon as you hit high levels or to not block all those levels behind fully clearing the map.

It also opens a way for New Game+ :)

Skyrim or Fallout 4 do have world scaling, so I guess Cyberpunk 2077 can be as good as Skyrim ;)
 

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Prior to 2.0, you hit 50 or close to that rather quickly, and 90% of enemies were grey giving you a massive advantage. At that point, your build is tertiary as whatever you do you pretty much one-shot things. With 2.0 they tried to balance things. They nerfed universal weapon types/groups and they added scaling so that the game doesn't become irrelevant as soon as you hit high levels or to not block all those levels behind fully clearing the map.

It also opens a way for New Game+ :)

Skyrim or Fallout 4 do have world scaling, so I guess Cyberpunk 2077 can be as good as Skyrim ;)
Arguably, the scaling has made the game irrelevant as soon as people heard it was implemented. emoji.
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I disagree that level scaling is an inherently bad thing in an RPG, and I could not disagree more that it "ruins the game".

Well, if you don't like RPG's, you would feel that way.
 
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Skyrim or Fallout 4 do have world scaling, so I guess Cyberpunk 2077 can be as good as Skyrim ;)

It's been a while since I discussed Skyrims "scaling", but from memory those games have scaling within brackets not universal and they are 'first contact' locked? So a 'region' has a definition for lower and upper enemy level limits, the scaling only operates within that, and whatever level you first enter the region the region gets locked to it? So if at level 1 you entered a lvl 5-20 region it would get locked to lvl 5 scaled encounters. If you entered the same region at level 50 it would lock at 20. And within all that enemies themselves can have static level limits or scaling to the player, right? It means there is real tangible benefit to levelling the character giving a sense of progress by no matter build or skills unlocked. If only CP2077 scaling seemed to have that kind of smarts to it.

Level scaling was not a good solution to giving the group (it's not all) of players who don't like being God Mode in Cyberpunk 2077 the gruelling challenge they wanted. And, it still hasn't given anyone a challenge, has it? - the challenges come in small bites, for me the Lilith cyberpsycho and Oda, everything else is this kind of "meh" same-difficulty-everywhere-all-the-time, so what has been gained? really gained? All that's been gained is a lack of variety in enemy strength.

A better answer would have been the New Game+ you mentioned. Or optional scaling (hhmm another game has done that, who was it again...oh yeah, CDPR). Or adding more enemy types and encounters that start spawning at levels.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Leveled_Creatures_(Skyrim) <- that's a really old way to scale things, it's not super sophisticated and yet longevity of Skyrim has not been hurt.

Scaling gangoons up to come close to your level once you've got elite abilities (like scaling doors to be heavier, or access points to be 'smarter') makes as much sense as it would for the mudcrabs around Riverwood standing a chance at taking out the now level 50 Dragonborn when they return to the area.

edit: pulling tangentially into this: for all the crap BGS's Creation Engine monstrosity has copped in the last month since Starfield launched, it is ridiculous that something so "flawed" is still doing a scaling/encounter balance better than RED. That's my opinion, anyway.
 
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