pls
optimizations to these kinda problems have been around for years
have some faith in developers, its not like theres a rule that everything has to be implemented in the most straightforward way possible
optimizations to these kinda problems have been around for years
have some faith in developers, its not like theres a rule that everything has to be implemented in the most straightforward way possible
Do you guys have any idea how much computational power that would take, if it was really random?
How complex code will become, because it's a random generator. I love the idea, but I'm not sure if it's feasible yet for any game to have such a huge resource chunk taken away by the pure AI.
Furthermore, the way this engine is coded might not allow for full loading of these NPCs, as several layers of detail are used.
The closer the object is = the better, if you go out for enough from the object it dissapears.. animations are not loaded and you get some weird lookign glitches(Look on youtube).
I'm pretty sure, this would only work if they left the AI, in a certain 'end' state and it will recover/continue from that 'endstate' when geralt is close enough.
In other words, huge roaming packs probably won't happen because the world is loaded near Geralt, but not fully loaded when you run around, so either you have to activate the world (which is a huge resource chunk, and the optimaztion now is much better) or you spawn random stuff near Geralt, but then it only happens near you.
How complex code will become, because it's a random generator. I love the idea, but I'm not sure if it's feasible yet for any game to have such a huge resource chunk taken away by the pure AI.
Furthermore, the way this engine is coded might not allow for full loading of these NPCs, as several layers of detail are used.
The closer the object is = the better, if you go out for enough from the object it dissapears.. animations are not loaded and you get some weird lookign glitches(Look on youtube).
I'm pretty sure, this would only work if they left the AI, in a certain 'end' state and it will recover/continue from that 'endstate' when geralt is close enough.
In other words, huge roaming packs probably won't happen because the world is loaded near Geralt, but not fully loaded when you run around, so either you have to activate the world (which is a huge resource chunk, and the optimaztion now is much better) or you spawn random stuff near Geralt, but then it only happens near you.
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I like the world in the witcher 3 a lot, I don't mind a bit of grinding in it tbh. Wander around looking for monsters, surprised by random events, no need to log this kind of events in quests, just for immersion sake. How awesome is that. Especially if the graphics, lighting etc are restored like E3 35 minutes demo. More monsters are also welcome, I <3 monsters.
CDPR should make a counter like :
- per 50,000 copies sold, add 1 animal.
- per 100,000 copies sold , add 1 monster or wild animal.
- 10m copies sold , graphics overhaul for pc ;D
by the time it reached 10m, we'll have nicer graphics, 60 new monsters (bruxa, striga, cockatrice, graveir, kikimore, fleder, devourer, cemetaur, bloedzuiger, garkain, crocodile, anaconda, tiger, lion, hyena, puma, cheetah, honey badger, and many many more), 120 animals (monkeys, lizards, elephants, giraffes, butterflies, baboons, frogs, snakes, turtles, donkeys, owls, bats, squirrels, penguins, moose, walrus, foxes, seals, and a lot more).
Most of the area is wilderness , should put those creatures to make it more alive.
And add rules for those animals, for example tiger, tiger is a king of the jungle, Geralt doesn't kill king, so if Geralt encounter one, tiger might attack but Geralt only dodge/roll, 1 minute and the the tiger will flee. Tiger is territorial so make it less in numbers, like there are only five throughout the game, unkillable(blue name) and only avoid its attack for 1 minute if sees one. Should be great for randomized event and surprise.
CDPR should make a counter like :
- per 50,000 copies sold, add 1 animal.
- per 100,000 copies sold , add 1 monster or wild animal.
- 10m copies sold , graphics overhaul for pc ;D
by the time it reached 10m, we'll have nicer graphics, 60 new monsters (bruxa, striga, cockatrice, graveir, kikimore, fleder, devourer, cemetaur, bloedzuiger, garkain, crocodile, anaconda, tiger, lion, hyena, puma, cheetah, honey badger, and many many more), 120 animals (monkeys, lizards, elephants, giraffes, butterflies, baboons, frogs, snakes, turtles, donkeys, owls, bats, squirrels, penguins, moose, walrus, foxes, seals, and a lot more).
Most of the area is wilderness , should put those creatures to make it more alive.
And add rules for those animals, for example tiger, tiger is a king of the jungle, Geralt doesn't kill king, so if Geralt encounter one, tiger might attack but Geralt only dodge/roll, 1 minute and the the tiger will flee. Tiger is territorial so make it less in numbers, like there are only five throughout the game, unkillable(blue name) and only avoid its attack for 1 minute if sees one. Should be great for randomized event and surprise.
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It is not impossible to code. Lol. Once again, it has been done before.
All that is required is that they spawn more groups of AI at a faster rate and increase the variety to include more big monsters. The relationships between the AI exist. They know what to do when they come across another enemy. The game simply needs to be tweaked to allow for more chances of these AI systems interacting with each other.
It was done in RDR. It was done in GTA5 even. It was done in Far Cry 4. It has been done
Now, in terms of the things like "if you kill a certain number of wolves deer population goes up"..I don't know. That would require an extensive amount of research and scientific method BS to figure out, and frankly I am pretty sure they just said that simply because it is impossible to properly conduct and experiment to find the result. It's like them saying that there is another wold map outside the explorable map that is constantly evolving based on your actions. You would never know if they are lying or not
The only way we can know for sure is by looking at the actual code.
Okay so UPDATE: After a lot more gameplay, exiting the game, coming back, exploring, ect-
1. That deer body is still in the same spot. However, I looted it once and can no longer do so. I am not sure at this point if it was a decal placed there from the beginning or if it appeared there sometimes and never disappears.
2. I explored the night time and meditated a lot to wait for a full moon.
I have not encountered any werewolves.
All that is required is that they spawn more groups of AI at a faster rate and increase the variety to include more big monsters. The relationships between the AI exist. They know what to do when they come across another enemy. The game simply needs to be tweaked to allow for more chances of these AI systems interacting with each other.
It was done in RDR. It was done in GTA5 even. It was done in Far Cry 4. It has been done
Now, in terms of the things like "if you kill a certain number of wolves deer population goes up"..I don't know. That would require an extensive amount of research and scientific method BS to figure out, and frankly I am pretty sure they just said that simply because it is impossible to properly conduct and experiment to find the result. It's like them saying that there is another wold map outside the explorable map that is constantly evolving based on your actions. You would never know if they are lying or not
The only way we can know for sure is by looking at the actual code.
Okay so UPDATE: After a lot more gameplay, exiting the game, coming back, exploring, ect-
1. That deer body is still in the same spot. However, I looted it once and can no longer do so. I am not sure at this point if it was a decal placed there from the beginning or if it appeared there sometimes and never disappears.
2. I explored the night time and meditated a lot to wait for a full moon.
I have not encountered any werewolves.
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You'd think werewolves are the perfect example of CDP's "monsters change tactics based on time of day and weather"
I would have thought werewolves would occur during full moon, at the very least during the night (because waiting for a full moon is like 10 in game days and that destroys gameplay fun just waiting)
IDK. I am holding out hope that the AI and spawning for all these enemies are there but they just are coded to appear VERY rarely.
I would have thought werewolves would occur during full moon, at the very least during the night (because waiting for a full moon is like 10 in game days and that destroys gameplay fun just waiting)
IDK. I am holding out hope that the AI and spawning for all these enemies are there but they just are coded to appear VERY rarely.
Well I can't speak for the whole game, and I did also not encounter something like "smiths wife dies so he moves to other town" or something like that.
There are the areas which you can "liberate" from monsters. ALso, sometimes the environment will react to changes.
And there is that, I came across it one or two times in my playthrough so far....
[video]https://youtu.be/EpHNPsaBrU4?t=19m52s[/video]
The wolfes attacked the Bandits because they were nearby and "sensed" or "smelled" the blood.
I had another instance where 2 parties (think drowners and wolfes) did actively kill each other while I was fighing with drowners initially. The wolves won and the surviving 2 did attack me afterwards.
There are the areas which you can "liberate" from monsters. ALso, sometimes the environment will react to changes.
And there is that, I came across it one or two times in my playthrough so far....
[video]https://youtu.be/EpHNPsaBrU4?t=19m52s[/video]
The wolfes attacked the Bandits because they were nearby and "sensed" or "smelled" the blood.
I had another instance where 2 parties (think drowners and wolfes) did actively kill each other while I was fighing with drowners initially. The wolves won and the surviving 2 did attack me afterwards.
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I've seen plenty of the "living ecosystem" without even looking for it. Coming across wolves hunting rabbits/deer. Fighting a group of monsters and being forced to flee into a different group and they engage eachother allowing me to rejoin the fight. And I could go on. I wouldn't doubt deer populations increasing when I kill wolves, again I'm not testing it in any type of scientific way, as I'm sure is what you did before writing this thesis.
Hm, that was interesting. Perhaps the wolves actually do sense stuff like that.
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Please, I would really like to know what else you came across.
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Just the fact that a player is able to successfully every time come across a red fiend at a specific point on the map, unmarked by any location, is incredibly disappointing. There is nothing organic or dynamic about that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyaVFKDvjlA
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same thing with a griffin here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y39Wwfh0288
It is unmarked, in the "open world" and always spawns in the same exact spot no matter what
(Why am I doing this... again?)
There is no AI. No game ever had AI. NPCs all go by whatever their behavior package tells them to do. The behavior package is/are script(s).
"Breathing and living ecosystem": a matter of expectation and perception. For example, re-population areas. At its core, it is "kill monsters and people will come back, boost economy". Is that part of a breathing and living ecosystem? Yes, it is. Is it present in the game? Yes, it is. But, then there is the expectation of what one wants to see. In the case of re-population areas, the game provides a sort of "instant gratification" ecosystem: kill monsters, see people re-populate, vendor is open for business. To most, that's enough; after all, that whole scenario is ancillary/window dressing to the meat of the game, the story. Now, if you want to see something like: kill monsters... pass by location 3 days later, see 2-3 folks building a hut... pass by location 3 days later, see 4-5 folks working on same hut... pass by location 3 days later, see 12 folks, first hut finished, working on second hut... etc etc etc, well, you are going to be disappointed. That level of detail for an ancillary aspect of the game, it just doesn't make it into the game; just too much effort for 1 small aspect of mere ambiance.
There is no AI. No game ever had AI. NPCs all go by whatever their behavior package tells them to do. The behavior package is/are script(s).
"Breathing and living ecosystem": a matter of expectation and perception. For example, re-population areas. At its core, it is "kill monsters and people will come back, boost economy". Is that part of a breathing and living ecosystem? Yes, it is. Is it present in the game? Yes, it is. But, then there is the expectation of what one wants to see. In the case of re-population areas, the game provides a sort of "instant gratification" ecosystem: kill monsters, see people re-populate, vendor is open for business. To most, that's enough; after all, that whole scenario is ancillary/window dressing to the meat of the game, the story. Now, if you want to see something like: kill monsters... pass by location 3 days later, see 2-3 folks building a hut... pass by location 3 days later, see 4-5 folks working on same hut... pass by location 3 days later, see 12 folks, first hut finished, working on second hut... etc etc etc, well, you are going to be disappointed. That level of detail for an ancillary aspect of the game, it just doesn't make it into the game; just too much effort for 1 small aspect of mere ambiance.
Once again, I would appreciate you all stop twisting my words. I never said ANYTHING close to that. In fact I clarified multiple times that I was not looking for that level of "world simulator" nonsense.
What the game needs, (what they advertised) is simply proper interaction between the different AI systems. A changing, dynamic world in terms of the beings that populate it. Animals attacking human settlements. Animals being attracted to rotting corpses. Animals wandering the world instead of spawning in the same spot over and over again.
For example, update,
The whole "monsters are drawn to rotting corpses" thing is complete BS.
3 times I killed a deer and waited via meditating for 24 hours each time. Since the world doesn't pause while you meditate, if a monster or animal was gonna be attracted, it would have come.
Next, I killed 2 deer and waited around without meditating, because maybe the meditation system prevents it or something. I took as many variables into consideration as I could.
Still, no monsters showed up.
---------- Updated at 02:21 AM ----------
This article makes me upset
http://www.dualshockers.com/2015/04/16/the-witcher-3-developer-talks-about-systems-fetch-quests-adaptable-loot-nudity-and-penises-and-more/
"If you kill that goat, it’s gonna produce a smell, and monsters may be attracted to it if there’s one that likes that kind of meat in the radius. If no one eats it and the corpse rots, a different kind of monster that eats rotten meat will be attracted."
Well after conducting some tests...nope.
"In some cases when you kill the monsters in an area, humans will settle it. In the prologue there’s actually a cutscene that shows is as it happens so that the players understand the mechanic. It’s not always so simple, and there are different states. Whenever you go into an area the game will check what you have and what you haven’t done, who you helped, who you killed, the decisions you made during quests and dialogue. That can change a lot of things, including the people that spawn in a village. The mechanic is simple, but it can get complex because of all the branching."
THis^ is the biggest middle finger I can imagine.
The truth is that each "empty site" is populated with monsters, and once you clear them, the same people populate EVERY PERSON's GAME the same way no matter what, and they all have the same lines of "thanks Geralt"
They try to build it up as if it'll be some special new thing every time when in reality it simply isn't. I love how they say "oh there's a cutscene in the beginning so you understand" and EVERY SINGLE ABANDONED SITE in the actual game is accompanied by the same rehashed cutscene
This is an incredibly recent interview by the way.
Anyway, in terms of the whole "monsters being attracted" thing, I will continue to experiment and research.
Perhaps If I keep killing deer in certain areas eventually maybe a group of wolves that spawned will come. I will keep you all posted.
They also talk about how a random farmer may be attacked while walking down the road..but all the civilians only stay in their respected villages, which no monsters attack.
It is all a matter, once again, of the weird sparsity that the code spawns these AI systems. Who knows, maybe if human travelers spawned more commonly there would actually be some attacks. Maybe if wolves and deer and monsters spawned more commonly, we might actually see examples of monsters attracted to smell.
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Interesting stance OP.
First, to the people on this thread stating there is AI in Far cry 4, GTA, and any other number of games to the level the the OP wants, you are full of it or you do not remember things the way most of us do, most likely being drunk and watching enemies spawn from nowhere or seeing some filler npc move a certain way and thinking..."Wow, that's some AI".
I have been alive a while, there isn't a single game out there currently that has any AI the OP wants. The OP wants to apparently live in their game instead of the real world. Most, being the massive majority play a game for a couple hours max and then tend to life. You do have the Gamers that because of whatever problem NEED to live in a game and need it as real as possible or they become bored and start to realize the game is actually....just a game. This creates bad feelings and a host of other problems we wont delve into.
No game to date has the level of AI needed by a lot of the folks typing on this thread about the subject. The cost, the work, the maintenance required to keep it running smoothly because bugs would be an issue with that level of complexity, The size of one file for one rabbit or one human npc, staggering if any of you have bothered to read up on the subject. It's simply not feasible.
What I have seen in the Witcher 3 currently. Mobs do spawn in roughly the same areas and some in the same spots. Mobs do rove in wide areas. Wolves eat rabbits, Nekkers eat pretty much everything, rabbits, dear, wolves, though Nekker verse wolf fights are great to watch, bears kill werewolves (yup I watched that one), Drowners kill humans and are killed by humans (seen a few roving bandit gangs attack a group of Drowners and lose horribly, though taking a few of them with them. Towns are never retaken by animals, bandits or monsters that I have seen other than the one choice I made that ended up getting a certain town slaughtered, oh well. Wraiths spawn and raise hell but rarely kill as I have sat and watch a noon wraith terrorize a few field(s) of farmers but not kill a single one but it did end up killing lots of rabbits and a few wolves. I watch two brothers commit suicide beneath a tree because they couldn't face failing their third brother over the death of his bride. i came back a while later to see the tree they had died at (exploring), it had two faces carved into it (for the brothers obviously) i then went to the spot the bride had died and witnessed the fiancee placing flowers and then praying, interesting i thought, but I wasn't going to stick around to see if he did this repeatedly.
There is a very satisfying amount of AI in this game. Much of it most likely missed by those blowing through the game or not exploring. Much can be seen by simply sitting in a heavy area of wildlife/monsters and just observing.
About werewolves, there are quite a few in Skellige I have found with the big white wolf packs at night. Killed enough of them simply exploring, not around question marks either. They are not with them all the time nor in the same areas.
Is the AI remotely close to real life situations, not even a little bit. It is on par with any other game AI and better in some, worse in others. Is it enough for a game of this type, of course it is. Some modder out there will eventually take the kit and create what the OP and some other folks want, something to fulfill their lives and help them stay away from reality and live in the game and be comfortable.
First, to the people on this thread stating there is AI in Far cry 4, GTA, and any other number of games to the level the the OP wants, you are full of it or you do not remember things the way most of us do, most likely being drunk and watching enemies spawn from nowhere or seeing some filler npc move a certain way and thinking..."Wow, that's some AI".
I have been alive a while, there isn't a single game out there currently that has any AI the OP wants. The OP wants to apparently live in their game instead of the real world. Most, being the massive majority play a game for a couple hours max and then tend to life. You do have the Gamers that because of whatever problem NEED to live in a game and need it as real as possible or they become bored and start to realize the game is actually....just a game. This creates bad feelings and a host of other problems we wont delve into.
No game to date has the level of AI needed by a lot of the folks typing on this thread about the subject. The cost, the work, the maintenance required to keep it running smoothly because bugs would be an issue with that level of complexity, The size of one file for one rabbit or one human npc, staggering if any of you have bothered to read up on the subject. It's simply not feasible.
What I have seen in the Witcher 3 currently. Mobs do spawn in roughly the same areas and some in the same spots. Mobs do rove in wide areas. Wolves eat rabbits, Nekkers eat pretty much everything, rabbits, dear, wolves, though Nekker verse wolf fights are great to watch, bears kill werewolves (yup I watched that one), Drowners kill humans and are killed by humans (seen a few roving bandit gangs attack a group of Drowners and lose horribly, though taking a few of them with them. Towns are never retaken by animals, bandits or monsters that I have seen other than the one choice I made that ended up getting a certain town slaughtered, oh well. Wraiths spawn and raise hell but rarely kill as I have sat and watch a noon wraith terrorize a few field(s) of farmers but not kill a single one but it did end up killing lots of rabbits and a few wolves. I watch two brothers commit suicide beneath a tree because they couldn't face failing their third brother over the death of his bride. i came back a while later to see the tree they had died at (exploring), it had two faces carved into it (for the brothers obviously) i then went to the spot the bride had died and witnessed the fiancee placing flowers and then praying, interesting i thought, but I wasn't going to stick around to see if he did this repeatedly.
There is a very satisfying amount of AI in this game. Much of it most likely missed by those blowing through the game or not exploring. Much can be seen by simply sitting in a heavy area of wildlife/monsters and just observing.
About werewolves, there are quite a few in Skellige I have found with the big white wolf packs at night. Killed enough of them simply exploring, not around question marks either. They are not with them all the time nor in the same areas.
Is the AI remotely close to real life situations, not even a little bit. It is on par with any other game AI and better in some, worse in others. Is it enough for a game of this type, of course it is. Some modder out there will eventually take the kit and create what the OP and some other folks want, something to fulfill their lives and help them stay away from reality and live in the game and be comfortable.
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@Graill I'm not even gonna go in depth in response. Simply put, just because I want the game to have what it was advertised doesn't mean I am some shut-in gamer who has no life. Your entire post is irrelevant, simply because I am trying to figure out if each thing they promised in terms of the ecosystem is true or not. It isn't open to interpretation. It either is or isn't. I am not trying to argue what makes "perfect systemic AI". I am testing what CDP said themselves. Nothing more. If you claim that the things I discuss in the OP are "impossible", then you just confirmed my point, that CDP effectively lied and/or exaggerated the AI system. G'day
Okay, confirmed the animals being attracted feature is BS. I killed deer in the vicinity of wolves 3 times. Each time, I meditated for 24 hours. The wolves were still there but didn't show.
I did the same thing with hares in the presence of wolves, hares in the presence of bears, deer in the presence of nekkers, and the same results every time, which is to say, no result.
Okay, confirmed the animals being attracted feature is BS. I killed deer in the vicinity of wolves 3 times. Each time, I meditated for 24 hours. The wolves were still there but didn't show.
I did the same thing with hares in the presence of wolves, hares in the presence of bears, deer in the presence of nekkers, and the same results every time, which is to say, no result.
Humans once thought flying wasn't possible....until aeroplanes. Gamers once thought Tomb Raider was the best 3D game ever made...now we're playing The Witcher 3.
I wonder if someone who acts like he knew much about other people was/is actually experiencing the thing he knew about so damn much. It takes one to know one as they say.
I wonder if someone who acts like he knew much about other people was/is actually experiencing the thing he knew about so damn much. It takes one to know one as they say.
(Please, someone stop me)
But I am not twisting your words, on the contrary, I hit the nail on the head, as proven by your next statement:
First, you need to understand the difference between a corpse and a carcass. A dead human is a corpse. A dead animal is a carcass. Rotten corpses are found in all the battlefields, along the river banks, etc., and often you will find monsters there, being ghouls, alghouls, nekkers, drowners, etc. So your statement of The whole "monsters are drawn to rotting corpses" thing is complete BS. is erroneous.
But even if we go with the "dead deer count as corpses" idea, look at your expectation of "living, breathing ecosystem":. You expected that, after you kill a random animal at some random location, the carcass was going to rot over time, then, once rotten, attract monsters. That is very much in line with the re-population example I posted: you are expecting too much for what amounts to window dressing.
And please, stop using the term "AI". It isn't.
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Is it just me that some monster in the game run after losing a fight?
I have exp this twice destroying nekker nest kill bunch of nekker then one of nekker fleeing, i really wanted to catch that nekker but loot are quite important so ended that nekker survived.
Also exp this dealing w/ wolves, doing a quest w/ an ai partner. We kill bunch of wolves in each side one wolf just runaway and fleeing.
Seriously this mechanic will be cool if human bandit and peasant are affected on this. Seeing one of their buddy being beheaded, cut in half and etc they should flee and run.
I have exp this twice destroying nekker nest kill bunch of nekker then one of nekker fleeing, i really wanted to catch that nekker but loot are quite important so ended that nekker survived.
Also exp this dealing w/ wolves, doing a quest w/ an ai partner. We kill bunch of wolves in each side one wolf just runaway and fleeing.
Seriously this mechanic will be cool if human bandit and peasant are affected on this. Seeing one of their buddy being beheaded, cut in half and etc they should flee and run.
As far as I've noticed, if you keep killing wolves, more deers spawn. That's the only example of a "living breathing eco-system" I've seen in-game.
In my game I have noticed an increase in both deer population and rabbit population from killing so many wolves and wild dogs. I've come across a rabbit carcass and within a few minutes in the area, a pack of wolves came out of a tree line and made a bee line for the rabbit carcass. On one instance I did see nekkers and drowners fighting, it was in Velen as I was crossing a stream looking for an inn to find Hendrik. For the most part, they'll team up on me, any monsters. Granted I'm not far in, having only clocked a mere 33 hours so far because I lead a very busy life and my weekends have been filled with various things to do. So I've yet to get to really settle in for a whole weekend and just play. This weekend looks to be the same so far..