"Living Breathing Ecosystem"

[Wolfmeister1010]

Lol I didn't get the joke the first time I read it, it was off but I didn't catch it. Now that I read it again it's quite funny xD
---

Anyway, animals like wolves are only killing for survival or when hungry, they don't kill for sport, eventhough wolves or other carnivores might kill more than they can eat when they do hunt. Maybe that's why sometimes they react to their prey, dead or alive, and some other times they don't and it's randomized to make it simpler. If they hunt and eat everytime they see a prey, the wolves will become furry pigs ;D

Might apply to monsters as well for reaction with corpses/carcasses. Encounters between living aggresive creatures will trigger a 'survival' script, for tamed animals it's 'feeding' script and the hunger is randomized. Maybe things like that are factored in, too.

But then the wolves kill everything in sight. I have watched them kill a deer, see another one, chased after it, and so on. I don't think real wolves would do that. They stick to one kill. So I don't think that sort of realism is factored in

Unless, of course, the system is bugged

 

[Smurfin]

They do kill a lot when they hunt, it's called surplus killing, killing more than they can eat, but probably it isn't that far-thought for a game and just a coincidence.

 

[Butcher_of_Cidaris]

I saw when wolfs attacked rabbits, nilfgaardian patrol just walk in some bandit group and killed them.

But i do want to see unscripted attack of griffin or vyvern on some group of people or small villages, like dragons do in Skyrim. I dont say game should copy a Skyrim, it's Witcher after all and good at it, but environment dont feel much dynamic on it's own.

Some A.I tweaks are welcome.

 

[SystemShock7]

Sigh.

And fine, I will bite.


If it isn't AI, then what is it? Because there are literally described as advanced AI systems by REDs in interviews.

---------- Updated at 06:50 PM ----------

"As for the advanced AI, monsters can spawn in the world very far away from the players current location. If you for example kill a deer, that deer will produce a smell, the game-eninge then calculates if there are any monsters around, and if they would be drawn to the smell."

I don't remember who started calling behavior packages "A.I.", or when, but it is not A.I. I guess Artificial Intelligence sounds much cooler and more hi-tech than Behavior Package. Behavior packages are just scripts that determine what an NPC does and when it does it. I guess it sounds cool from a marketing perspective to call it A.I., but it isn't. True A.I. does not exist. The closest thing I know to A.I. is IBM's Watson, and no one is going to be running anything close to Watson on a PC after a one time $60 payment.

At its most basic, A.I. learns and adapts without being told specifically what to do. A good example of not A.I. would be those camps guarded by NPCs. You attack the camp, run a bit away from it, and NPCs would just stand at the edge of their zone, while you hit them with your crossbow. If there was a trace of A.I. in the game, those NPC would so something other than stand there and get hit without being specifically told what to do. If the behavior package would tell them "if you reach your zone's edge and still taking damage, do this", still not A.I.

Anyway, at the end of the day, pet peeve of mine, game scripts being called "A.I." because it sounds cooler than "bundle of scripts".

As for the quote above, I am curious as to where the quote comes from. Misspelling and bad sentence structure (not to mention, no link) make me skeptical of any quote or statement. Even if one were to take the quote at face value, then the question would need to be asked, what constitutes a monster "being around"?

 

[Wolfmeister1010]

http://wccftech.com/witcher-3-pax-east-destruction-and-ai/

http://www.gameranx.com/updates/id/24708/article/the-witcher-3-wild-hunt-ecosystems-operate-on-their-own-can-be-interrupted-by-geralt/

---------- Updated at 06:13 PM ----------

Guess you better tell CDP they're using the "wrong terminology"

 

[-Olek]

http://imgur.com/a/Ijuz2

Hope the next Witcher will look like this. Took these pics few hrs ago.

 

[Smurfin]

Imo it is fair to call those AI, it is intelligent behaviours and it is artificial, hence the name AI.

If I have to be nitpicking about calling things, I'd start with a MOUSE for my computer xD , the closest thing I know to a mouse is....well... a mouse.

 

[SystemShock7]

http://wccftech.com/witcher-3-pax-east-destruction-and-ai/

http://www.gameranx.com/updates/id/24708/article/the-witcher-3-wild-hunt-ecosystems-operate-on-their-own-can-be-interrupted-by-geralt/

---------- Updated at 06:13 PM ----------

Guess you better tell CDP they're using the "wrong terminology"

The quote you posted comes from the first link. That quote is not from CDPR. It is from a blogger for that site.
The second link, Damien Monnier says nothing of the sort in the video, although it touches on some aspects of the game's ecosystem.

I would gladly discuss the terminology with any of the devs at CDPR.

 

[Wolfmeister1010]

The quote you posted comes from the first link. That quote is not from CDPR. It is from a blogger for that site.
The second link, Damien Monnier says nothing of the sort in the video, although it touches on some aspects of the game's ecosystem.

I would gladly discuss the terminology with any of the devs at CDPR.

You do realize that the interview was with the lead game designer, correct?

This quote is from the second link: " if you decide to interfere with that ecosystem, there will be consequences. Kill all the deer in the area, and the wolves will leave, to find other places with more food. Kill all the wolves, and the deer population will start to grow."

I don't even understand what point your are even trying to make anymore.

Call it whatever you want, but we are discussing if it is in the game or not in the game like they advertised.

 

[SystemShock7]

Imo it is fair to call those AI, it is intelligent behaviours and it is artificial, hence the name AI.

If I have to be nitpicking about calling things, I'd start with a MOUSE for my computer xD , the closest thing I know to a mouse is....well... a mouse.

The thing is, there is no "intelligence" involved. Everything NPCs do, every action they take, they do so because they are explicitly commanded to do so. Without seeing the code, and just going by what I see in-game, I can't even call it fuzzy logic, let alone artificial intelligence.

As for a computer mouse, at least I can see where the reference comes from: the skinny tail, the jerky movement, the sort of humpback shape...

---------- Updated at 03:36 PM ----------

You do realize that the interview was with the lead game designer, correct?

This quote is from the second link: " if you decide to interfere with that ecosystem, there will be consequences. Kill all the deer in the area, and the wolves will leave, to find other places with more food. Kill all the wolves, and the deer population will start to grow."

Yes, I do realize he's the lead designer. He said at the beginning "I am the lead designer". The scenario he describes and you quoted, I have seen that very scenario happen in my game, many times. Where does the lead designer say "if you kill a deer anywhere, you can wait x number of days, and it'll turn into a rotten corpse that would attract monsters'? If he said that, then it is a different story, and you have a valid point. But if not, then you took what a blogger said and ran with it.

 

[Smurfin]

@SystemShock7
I see that you can see a lot from that 2 letter words, you even go into details about it and why it shouldn't be called as such, you disagree about the term but you perfectly understand what it is in the context of gaming, that is all that matter.

The same with mouse, only the difference you agree calling it a mouse.

 

[BlackWolf500.298]

There is no AI. No game ever had AI. NPCs all go by whatever their behavior package tells them to do. The behavior package is/are script(s).

Well, no shit Sherlock, obviously there is no real Artificial Intelligence. But in games you generally call the programmed behavior pattern and parameters of the enemies and NPCs "A.I.", even if the statement does not equal the actual meaning of the word.

 

[Wolfmeister1010]

The thing is, there is no "intelligence" involved. Everything NPCs do, every action they take, they do so because they are explicitly commanded to do so. Without seeing the code, and just going by what I see in-game, I can't even call it fuzzy logic, let alone artificial intelligence.

As for a computer mouse, at least I can see where the reference comes from: the skinny tail, the jerky movement, the sort of humpback shape...

---------- Updated at 03:36 PM ----------



Yes, I do realize he's the lead designer. He said at the beginning "I am the lead designer". The scenario he describes and you quoted, I have seen that very scenario happen in my game, many times. Where does the lead designer say "if you kill a deer anywhere, you can wait x number of days, and it'll turn into a rotten corpse that would attract monsters'? If he said that, then it is a different story, and you have a valid point. But if not, then you took what a blogger said and ran with it.

Fair enough

---------- Updated at 10:40 PM ----------

I suppose I couldnt care less if the system is perfect.


I simply want someone to make mod that adds more enemies, more bandits patrols, more monsters.

Perhaps a mod that makes a monster spawn attacking a village every now and then, or mod to give a griffin a patrol flight across a certain space.

I don't know

 

[Darkcloud.282]

The thing is the game actually does less then Skyrim. Skyrim did a fairly good job at spawning random enemies in the world. The wildlife and bandits don't feel like they are just there to be an obstacle to you and having some random lines spread across all people of a cerain type of person also works better overall. The arrow to the knee line was just one that was poorly chosen for such a line but in general the system is better than hearing for the 5000 time that your smith of choice is adding orments because he always talks about it when you come near him.

people at least somewhat reacting to weather would not be that hard. A system of certain groups of people and creatures fighting each other should also not be that hard but the hard part would be spawning them in a way that they come in contact often enough but that the results still stay predictable enough.

Also Skyrim had some random events you could encounter on tje road. They were small enough so that missing them would nit be all that bad but interesting enough to ad more variety
to the world.

There is also a war going on but you never see any figbts between Redenian and Nilfgardian forces. There was a mod for Skyrim that added great war encounters in the appropriate areas. The performance was shit but that seems to be mai ly because of the horrible scripting engine of Skyrim.

 

[Cirivia]

Why are we talking about Skyrim? CDPR doesn't have a team anywhere near as large as Bethesda so it's unfair to compare them. The living breathing world is present in Witcher 3 maybe not to the extent people had imagined but it is definitely in the game.

Yesterday I watched some villagers in White Orchard work during the late hours and at around 10:00 PM on the in game clock one child ran inside and went to bed and a few minutes later another child went inside. About an hour passed in game when a male and female npc went into the same house that the children were in. Today I was fighting a group of bandits in Velen when a wolf killed one of them and started attacking another. The bandit proceeded to kill the wolf and I killed the bandit before being swarmed by 5 other wolves.

Some other things i've noticed are:

- people fishing off of bridges
- deer being chased by wolves, wolves being chased by nekkers
- traders walking away from villages in the morning and coming back at night

 

[Wolfmeister1010]

Why are we talking about Skyrim? CDPR doesn't have a team anywhere near as large as Bethesda so it's unfair to compare them. The living breathing world is present in Witcher 3 maybe not to the extent people had imagined but it is definitely in the game.

Yesterday I watched some villagers in White Orchard work during the late hours and at around 10:00 PM on the in game clock one child ran inside and went to bed and a few minutes later another child went inside. About an hour passed in game when a male and female npc went into the same house that the children were in. Today I was fighting a group of bandits in Velen when a wolf killed one of them and started attacking another. The bandit proceeded to kill the wolf and I killed the bandit before being swarmed by 5 other wolves.

Some other things i've noticed are:

- people fishing off of bridges
- deer being chased by wolves, wolves being chased by nekkers
- traders walking away from villages in the morning and coming back at night

Okay, the comment about a "smaller team" is completely irrelevant. A 3 or 4 person team created No Man's Sky, a procedurally generated open world universe, and Ubisoft, with hundreds working on a single game, ship out a buggy mess.

Team size has little to do with the quality of the game, and I wish people would stop using that as an excuse. More people does not equal better game. Most of the time it has to do with the skill of the members and the time they put into the game.

CDP has plenty of professional and respected programmers and designers who have worked on the game for half a decade.


But, you are right about how we shouldn't compare to skyrim.

Skyrim is a sandbox game through and through, whereas Witcher is a narrative first, then open world.

That being said, I would love mods that bring the war into the lands in real time and add more random encounters (they didn't put many of those in because they are all about dat "handcrafted content" instead of radiant quests like Elder Scrolls or RDR)-I suppose it is up to the fans in that regard.


Not to mention that even Skyrim fails at being skyrim. The placement of random encounters was garbage, and the "civil war" system is universally panned, it is almost a running gag.

Mods, again, are what made the open world of Skyrim bearable.

 

[Cirivia]

Okay, the comment about a "smaller team" is completely irrelevant. A 3 or 4 person team created No Man's Sky, a procedurally generated open world universe, and Ubisoft, with hundreds working on a single game, ship out a buggy mess.

Team size has little to do with the quality of the game, and I wish people would stop using that as an excuse. More people does not equal better game. Most of the time it has to do with the skill of the members and the time they put into the game.

CDP has plenty of professional and respected programmers and designers who have worked on the game for half a decade.


But, you are right about how we shouldn't compare to skyrim.

Skyrim is a sandbox game through and through, whereas Witcher is a narrative first, then open world.

That being said, I would love mods that bring the war into the lands in real time and add more random encounters (they didn't put many of those in because they are all about dat "handcrafted content" instead of radiant quests like Elder Scrolls or RDR)-I suppose it is up to the fans in that regard.


Not to mention that even Skyrim fails at being skyrim. The placement of random encounters was garbage, and the "civil war" system is universally panned, it is almost a running gag.

Mods, again, are what made the open world of Skyrim bearable.

I know a larger team doesn't equal a better game my point was geared towards the fact that if CDPR had a larger team Witcher 3 would no doubt be even more impressive (if that's possible) given CDPR talent.

 

[Merism]

As much as we want a game to be as realistic as possible, it is impossible to create a true living breathing ecosystem, even if it's possible, that would need more development time and resources. For example the kids playing burn the witch, if we want different line or activity, they would need to do it to other kids with their activities as well, with more activity they all multiplies. If they have like 10 kids and keep playing the same thing, they have to create 10 lines/activities, 2 activities=2x10 , 3 activities 3x10.

If we want guard/random npc say more varied lines like 1/2 less repetitive then they have to make twice the total existing random lines, 1/4 less repetitive, they have to make 4x the total existing random lines, and so on.

You make valid points, but keep in mind this is something quoted from CDPR themselves as a huge selling point--something they promised us. The OP makes a very tasteful and accurate correction to this claim which has unfortunately turned out to be erroneous.

 

[cloolvl]

If the behavior package would tell them "if you reach your zone's edge and still taking damage, do this", still not A.I.

but who was expert systems

 

[Smurfin]

You make valid points, but keep in mind this is something quoted from CDPR themselves as a huge selling point--something they promised us. The OP makes a very tasteful and accurate correction to this claim which has unfortunately turned out to be erroneous.

I think they already delivered what they promised as best they can or what they think is best enough, but the problem is WE WANT MORE xD

They delivered Living Breathing Ecosystem as they called and meant it to be, but we want MORE Living Breathing Ecosystem.
They delivered great graphics as they meant it to be, but we want BETTER THAN GREAT graphics.
They delivered 80 monster types as they promised, but we want 1000 monster types.
They delivered a gigantic world bigger than any game of the same genre, but we want A SUPER GIGANTIC world.
and so on.

I just read a good quote here , which he quoted from someone else, he said :
"And please release the red engine 2 modtools. Gaben said it : you cant compete with ur userbase; they'll fix and optimise the game for/with u.
U surely cant match the time of thousands of ppl (a fraction of ur customers) when ur 200-300 ppl strong a dev team."

The game had been made and released, it's very unlikely they'll make any specific big changes or release anything new other than bugfix for the time being, the 16 free DLC and 2 expansions as scheduled. We will need the REDkit for multi purpose and of course...time.