Lock Assimilate to one proc per turn.

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There are two problems with Assimilate that makes it literally twice as powerful as "sister"-mechanics (Harmony, Thrive and Intimidate): self-proccing and double-proccing. Because of the direction of NG changes, both of these have been receiving support with basically every new card created for NG, because everything is create and play and spawn and play, etc. Just off the top of my head here's a list of cards that either self-proc, double-proc, or BOTH: Terranova, Braathens, Coup, Vigo, Lydia, diplomacy, bribery, runestone, Cantarella. Now, ONE card that does that would not be extreme (though somehow Harmony Saskia absolutely cannot create a play a Harmony engine :D and has to spawn a goofy token), but there are just too freaking many. The number of these cards amounts to self-and/or-double proccing nearly every turn, which gets insane when there are 4, 5, 6 assimilate engines on the board.

So since there's no easy way to prevent self-proccing due to how the mechanic works, lock it to once per turn to at least eliminate double-proccing.
 
This nerf is too harsh. NG would lose a ton of points. I agree that Assimilate in a long round is too overwhelming if you can't remove most of the engines, but this is too much considering the current power level of the game.
 
OK, but how about Thrive, Intimidate and Harmony, which can generate roughly half the points of Assimilate, "considering the current power level of the game"? Instead of nerfing Assimilate, should we find ways to add self-proccing and double-proccing to them? Should we add multiple Harmony 2, Thrive 2 and Intimidate 2 cards?
 
Well in theory all the other things can have multiple process too, but in almost all the case there is no current cards to do that - but the problem its the cards, no the mechanic.

As example i can remember know, usually people use auberon in thrive decks to thrive 2 times larvas

For harmony you can use forest protector in harvest and create and elf. That would proc 2 times harmony. I know i know, its not that simple and problably there is no sinergy puting forest and harvest in a harmony deck, but, as i said, the problem are the cards, not the mechanic.

Maybe devs should create more cards for the other factions that can proc 2 times those mechanics
 
OK, but how about Thrive, Intimidate and Harmony, which can generate roughly half the points of Assimilate, "considering the current power level of the game"? Instead of nerfing Assimilate, should we find ways to add self-proccing and double-proccing to them? Should we add multiple Harmony 2, Thrive 2 and Intimidate 2 cards?
Harmony 2 is given by Percival Shuttenbach and Waters of Brokilon.
Triggering Harmony twice in a turn is only really doable with Fauve or tutoring/creating Bountiful Harvest.
Thrive 2 is given by Nekker, Endrega Larva, Bloody Mistress and Phooca.
Thrive also has Caranthir + Koshchey and can double trigger easily while the engines are still small.
Intimidate has Sir Skewertooth, Cleaver and Ulrich for Intimidate 2.
Playing 2 Crimes in 1 turn is quite difficult.


There are two problems with Assimilate that makes it literally twice as powerful as "sister"-mechanics (Harmony, Thrive and Intimidate): self-proccing and double-proccing. [...]
The issue is that apart from Thrive all of those mechanics are mediocre at best and (currently) cannot function as the core of a deck.
The comparison is not damning if all you are saying is that it is better than failures.
Thrive by definition cannot the main focus, given that each subsequent trigger becomes more and more difficult.
Intimidate cannot reasonably be double triggered and outside of Cleaver and Ulrich does not allow decent cards to get Intimidate 2. Furthermore with the change Tunnel Drill the entire Crime + Intimidate archetype is dead and saw no further serious play.
[...] (though somehow Harmony Saskia absolutely cannot create a play a Harmony engine :D and has to spawn a goofy token), but there are just too freaking many. [...]
Harmony Saskia is not that way because of balance concerns, but simply because she is low on the "To-Do List".
Even if the token was played (triggering Harmony) and would get the Harmony tag as well that would hardly make Harmony problematic.

The issue with Harmony is:
(i) it has lost its most important play in using Waters of Brokilon from leader + immediately triggering these engines.
(ii) it has not exactly gotten adjustments for the powercreep since Harmony was relevant (which was something like 2 years ago)
(iii) the new Saskia Harmony is hilariously underpowered. No functioning archetype would want to include her, let alone an archetype that would need to be good.

In summary Harmony is even weaker than it was 2 years ago (not adjusting for any powercreep) and noone would expect a deck on the powerlevel from 2 years ago to be remotely playable.


The issue with the comparison is that these inferior comparisons are archetypes that are failing and desperately need help.
 
OK, but how about Thrive, Intimidate and Harmony, which can generate roughly half the points of Assimilate, "considering the current power level of the game"? Instead of nerfing Assimilate, should we find ways to add self-proccing and double-proccing to them? Should we add multiple Harmony 2, Thrive 2 and Intimidate 2 cards?
There's no denying that all of those archetypes you have listed are worse than Assimilate at the moment. But Assimilate is (roughly) on par with let's say Jackpot, Onslaught and all the other meta decks out there, that's what I meant with power level. Yeah, Harmony and the others should definitely receive buffs to make them more competitive. Way better than nerfing a deck whose performance isn't over the top. But I think we all know by now how long this will take CDPR.....
 
Harmony 2 is given by Percival Shuttenbach and Waters of Brokilon.
Triggering Harmony twice in a turn is only really doable with Fauve or tutoring/creating Bountiful Harvest.
Thrive 2 is given by Nekker, Endrega Larva, Bloody Mistress and Phooca.
Thrive also has Caranthir + Koshchey and can double trigger easily while the engines are still small.
Intimidate has Sir Skewertooth, Cleaver and Ulrich for Intimidate 2.
Playing 2 Crimes in 1 turn is quite difficult.
Yes, all of which illustrates the much lower double-proccing and non-existent self-proccing potential of these archtypes comparing to Assimilate.
The issue is that apart from Thrive all of those mechanics are mediocre at best and (currently) cannot function as the core of a deck.
The comparison is not damning if all you are saying is that it is better than failures.
Thrive by definition cannot the main focus, given that each subsequent trigger becomes more and more difficult.
Intimidate cannot reasonably be double triggered and outside of Cleaver and Ulrich does not allow decent cards to get Intimidate 2. Furthermore with the change Tunnel Drill the entire Crime + Intimidate archetype is dead and saw no further serious play.
This isn't the issue with the comparison. Rather, it's the point of it. All of these mechanics started out as the variations on the same concept: you start with slow-tempo, vulnerable engines that grandually build up and snowball into late-round value. The "issue" is that Assimilate received all of the support lately - Braathens, Terranova, Lydia, Coup - while the rest of these "related" archtypes received squat. And not only that, but virtually ALL of this new Assimilate support consisted of self-proccing and/or double-proccing cards. Now nobody even plays the "traditional" Assimilate cards - Ard Feann Heavy, Ducal Guard, Glynnis, even the Diviner is rarely seen - and these self-proccing and double-proccing "noveau"'-Assimilate cards are autoincude in every NG deck.
Harmony Saskia is not that way because of balance concerns, but simply because she is low on the "To-Do List".
Even if the token was played (triggering Harmony) and would get the Harmony tag as well that would hardly make Harmony problematic.
I disagree. This most recent Saskia change came post-Braathens, etc., so she must have been on that "to-do list" fairly recently, but the laughable inferiority of her buff can only be explained by miscalculated balance considerations. You know, the same consideration that kept Waters at 12p for the last two years.
The issue with Harmony is:
(i) it has lost its most important play in using Waters of Brokilon from leader + immediately triggering these engines.
(ii) it has not exactly gotten adjustments for the powercreep since Harmony was relevant (which was something like 2 years ago)
(iii) the new Saskia Harmony is hilariously underpowered. No functioning archetype would want to include her, let alone an archetype that would need to be good.

In summary Harmony is even weaker than it was 2 years ago (not adjusting for any powercreep) and noone would expect a deck on the powerlevel from 2 years ago to be remotely playable.
All true, which is, again, one of the arguments in favor of balancing Assimilate against the rest of the related mechanics. Ideally, the other three would receive comparable buffs to what Assimilate has gotten, but since we all know how long changes take place around here, and since it's 1 vs 3, it would be easier and much faster to curb self- and double-proccing as suggested above.
The issue with the comparison is that these inferior comparisons are archetypes that are failing and desperately need help.
Again, not the issue, but the point of the comparison, and indeed, of this thread.
 
There are two problems with Assimilate that makes it literally twice as powerful as "sister"-mechanics (Harmony, Thrive and Intimidate): self-proccing and double-proccing. Because of the direction of NG changes, both of these have been receiving support with basically every new card created for NG, because everything is create and play and spawn and play, etc. Just off the top of my head here's a list of cards that either self-proc, double-proc, or BOTH: Terranova, Braathens, Coup, Vigo, Lydia, diplomacy, bribery, runestone, Cantarella. Now, ONE card that does that would not be extreme (though somehow Harmony Saskia absolutely cannot create a play a Harmony engine :D and has to spawn a goofy token), but there are just too freaking many. The number of these cards amounts to self-and/or-double proccing nearly every turn, which gets insane when there are 4, 5, 6 assimilate engines on the board.

So since there's no easy way to prevent self-proccing due to how the mechanic works, lock it to once per turn to at least eliminate double-proccing.
There's absolutely no way you have more than 4 assimilate engines on board outside of mirrors, and if you do, that means you're playing oldschool Assimilate with portal and stuff in the severely powercrept game which means you lose 9 times out of 10.


You don't get more than 2...4 double procs either. And even then, even a 5 provision piggie can get 2 points a turn these days (without the need for triggers, I'd like to remind you) so what's your point? Do you want Assimilate tag to be as worthless as Harmony, instead of better Harmony?
 
[...]

All true, which is, again, one of the arguments in favor of balancing Assimilate against the rest of the related mechanics. Ideally, the other three would receive comparable buffs to what Assimilate has gotten, but since we all know how long changes take place around here, and since it's 1 vs 3, it would be easier and much faster to curb self- and double-proccing as suggested above.

[...]
So your argument boils down to "If the other related mechanics are not equally good we should take the spiteful approach and ensure that none of them can be good" ?
And instead of this weird approach you could also say that Assimilate should be left alone for while, while only the 3 related mechanics should see any new cards/changes.
 
I for one would rather concentrate on improving the weaker tags to something more synergystic or powerful.
For example in case of Thrive I'd gladly see a mechanic that allows Thrive units to transform into a more powerful version (call it dire or whatever) of the card after reaching a certain Thrive threshold.

Just a few ideas:

Nekkers: once Nekkers would hit Thrive 3, they would turn into Rabid Nekkers, damaging a random enemy unit by 1 in addition to getting +1 health every time Thrive is triggered further.
Drowners: in case of Drowners, after reaching Thrive 3, they would reactivate their deploy ability for an extra use as an order/zeal.
Endrega Larvae would spawn an additional base Endrega Larva when reaching Thrive 5.

and so on.
 
I for one would rather concentrate on improving the weaker tags to something more synergystic or powerful.
For example in case of Thrive I'd gladly see a mechanic that allows Thrive units to transform into a more powerful version (call it dire or whatever) of the card after reaching a certain Thrive threshold.

That's a very cool idea, and a rather obvious one, and I can't believe no one, myself included, have come up with it till now.
 
There's absolutely no way you have more than 4 assimilate engines on board outside of mirrors, and if you do, that means you're playing oldschool Assimilate with portal and stuff in the severely powercrept game which means you lose 9 times out of 10.


You don't get more than 2...4 double procs either. And even then, even a 5 provision piggie can get 2 points a turn these days (without the need for triggers, I'd like to remind you) so what's your point? Do you want Assimilate tag to be as worthless as Harmony, instead of better Harmony?
"Absolutely" no way? You've never seen Terranova, Braathens, Vigo and a couple of torturers on the board at the same time? That's not "old school." That's just your basic run of the mill assimilate lineup in a long round.

The piggie does need a trigger: Sabbath, and that piggie may get 2 points per turn, but those 5 selfeaters on the board only go up by 1 when it lands. What if they went up 2 points each, also?

I think my point's been well established here. What I "want" aside, locking it to one proc per turn will still not make Assimilate "as worthless as Harmony," because it will still have self-proccing, and good high end cards, which Harmony does not. What it might do is make Assimilate an archtype again, which you have to build a deck for, instead of the ridiculous auto-include 5-card core in 90 percent of NG decks that it is now.
 
I am also completely against that nerf. If assimilate gets too dominating Devs can play around with provisions-power level.
 
So your argument boils down to "If the other related mechanics are not equally good we should take the spiteful approach and ensure that none of them can be good" ?
No, it boils down to "Let's take a balancing approach and balance the mechanic so that it's balanced."
And instead of this weird approach you could also say that Assimilate should be left alone for while, while only the 3 related mechanics should see any new cards/changes.
... Which is literally what I wrote in the section you just quoted and responded to.
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I am also completely against that nerf. If assimilate gets too dominating Devs can play around with provisions-power level.
What exactly is your definition of "too dominating"? Assimilate has been Tier1-high2 for 6 months. Are we supposed to wait until it's at relict-meta level of brokenness before we suggest changes?
 
No, it boils down to "Let's take a balancing approach and balance the mechanic so that it's balanced."

... Which is literally what I wrote in the section you just quoted and responded to.
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What exactly is your definition of "too dominating"? Assimilate has been Tier1-high2 for 6 months. Are we supposed to wait until it's at relict-meta level of brokenness before we suggest changes?
The question is, why does it HAVE to be nerfed? Yeah, it's been high tier for quite some time now and yes, it's better than comparable archetypes from other factions. But these factions have other viable decks (except ST, devs really messed this up again). NG only really shines with Assimilate at the moment, an archetype which generally isn't as frustrating to play against compared to bs like Mill or Clog. I hardly play any ranked anymore, because I'm tired of having to play meta all the time if I want to have a chance at climbing. They can nerf Assimilate for all I care because I never play it, but I don't really see a reason for this. Devs should pay a lot more attention to NR and ST, these two are very often pretty strong for a month and then get destroyed by the nerf hammer.
 
"Absolutely" no way? You've never seen Terranova, Braathens, Vigo and a couple of torturers on the board at the same time? That's not "old school." That's just your basic run of the mill assimilate lineup in a long round.

Disclaimer: None of the claims below apply to Assimirrors due to clown fiesta nature of these.

Now.

I've never seen anyone play 2 Torturers in the same round as the first three and still win. That's not how Torturers work...you aren't supposed to play them r3 unless your opponent played around your Terranova really, really hard. Even then, unless you're hunting a specific high-value unit (in which case you hold Torturess till said unit is played so she loses a bunch of value), there're more desirable cards to play that round. And even if you have 2 torturess on board in R3 - which you really shouldn't - it's still just 5 conditional and effectively hardcapped 1/2 point engines.

Besides, you aren't supposed to even have two in your deck in the first place. There's too much to cram in - the Illusionist Package, spies, Blightmakers, actual bronze specials...

But even if that wasn't the case...the highest Torturess played for engine value from hand (i.e. early and not through Joachim) I've seen this season was like 13 at the end of a 10 cards R3, after a bunch of highly irregular shenanigans with Double Cross and CdG.

The piggie does need a trigger: Sabbath, and that piggie may get 2 points per turn, but those 5 selfeaters on the board only go up by 1 when it lands. What if they went up 2 points each, also?
Sabbath is a non-condition for Relicts. Granted, you still can't play Piggies first thing in the round.
But neither can you start gaining optimal assimilate value immediately, so realistically they start working around the same turn in a round (except Piggie has a better chance to take off earlier because of Mammuna).

And then piggies just continue ticking, and consistently reach 10~16 value without any additional help, and can do even better occasionally - while Torturesses need triggers (why the former is much better is painfully obvious when you compare Assimilate tempo pass to Relict tempo pass)

Selfeater is a self-replicating engine that ALREADY produces 2-3-4-5 etc. points a turn after playing a single instance of self-eater, so it kinda does what you suggest here. For 6 provisions.
The closest thing Assimilate has to a self-replicating 2-points-a-turn engine is Vigo for 8, and he creates 1-power copies. Otherwise, you're stuck with whatever your opp is playing, which might occasionally be Shieldmaidens or, y'know, 2-point dryads...and only occasinally will be a plug-and-play 2 point engine. Your question makes no sense.


Most importantly, you get, like, 3-4 total reliable double procs (of either kind, put together) in a match. They're kinda capped, y'know? Now look at Fleders or Messengers or Addicts or Piggies or whatever. They're freaking bronzes, too. That don't start at 4/5 like the assimilate engines, I might add.


upd: all in all, Assimilate is a pretty weak engine tag nowadays, compared to all the new shiny stuff out there. It's strong because it can copy broken units, not because the tag itself is good. The best evidence for this is that competitive Assimilists run Illusionists and not Ducal Guard.
Assimilate itself = 1 CONDITIONAL point per turn, outside of double proccing, which is laughable. If it wasn't, we'd still see NR Frigates and Drummers, which we evidently don't.
 
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