Longship thoughts - bronze power comparison.

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The topic of this thread is "engines are too strong". Removal heavy decks are forced as the solution to op engines - a number of fairly strong engines happen to be bronze.

So... longship (the one that does 1 damage everytime the opponent plays a unit).
People have been complaining about weak bronzes and too much removal which im not entirely convinced is a statement you can make just like that.

This thing comes on a 4 body and will end up with easily over 10 points if played early in a long round 3. 4 points is without exceptions premium removal and even then somewhat rare, sometimes conditional, somewhat expensive. Or you can lock it which is about the same price. Or you can burn 2 cards on it and hope the guy cant buff it/doesnt have another one (to be fair skellige doesnt have much in the way of buffs) - using 2 cards also means you are delaying playing your own engines by at least 2 turns which is quite valuable.
It also enables combos (bloodthirst) and doesnt require any synergy whatsoever to get its absurd value if left alone.
If you cant remove this thing on a long turn 3. You are really likely to lose

Ghoul (another powerful bronze) which is 9 points at best eating a griffin, requires you to have exactly a griffin in graveyard, gets hit by geralt and "reset to base value cards".

A solid bronze for a lot of factions has currently about a value of 6. Some factions have more of those or even better ones, some factions dont. But then you have this thing.

Lets take this as just an example for a moment... if we look at some other factions we find bronzes that on paper have crazy synergy for crazy point gain (generally on weaker bodies tho) to the point where you HAVE to remove them because if you dont its just completely out of control.
Maybe the problem is engines being too strong rather than too much removal?
 
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This post goes all over the place. Where to start...

You've mentioned Ghoul as a random bronze, but you cannot compare it to Longship. It's a different faction with different provision costs and different applications.

Next, Longship is rarely played because there are usually better and more reliable choices. It could get plenty of points, but so can a lot of other bronze, like Svalblod Priest (being cheaper too) or any decent engine. Like with all engines, there are various ways to shut it down and they get increasingly less value the shorter the round.

Finally...
Maybe the problem is engines being too strong rather than too much removal?

This single sentence has enough discussion value to fill a whole thread, never mind everything you've previously said. However, most has already been said before, in other threads. I'll just give the super short version.

Engines are suppose to get above average value and that's why removal and locks exist. It's basically a tug of war game.

Removal (scissors) beats Engines (paper) which beats Point slam (rock) which beats removal, so on and so forth. Of course, there are exceptions and the luck of the draw can also make a difference. For engine decks, to win against removal, there is a simple rule: You run so many engines that the opponent cannot remove them all. For point slam deck, bleeding engines in round 2, for a short round 3, is usually a good tactic to ensure victory. Basically, you should always go for Achilles' Heel.
 
Of course you can compare bronzes. Why wouldnt you. Provision matters but you can compare that too.
That completely misses the point tho.

I was trying to provide an example of a completely broken, win game by itself if not dealt with, card as a statement towards the sentiment that there is too much removal in the game (which ive seen come up fairly frequently on both the forum and other sources - hence the thread). Basically saying that as long as cards like this exist, you are pretty much forced to run a large amount of powerful removal because otherwise you just lose instantly.
Wether or not its actually playable in the current meta isnt relevant for this aspect.

This card in particular stands out to me because its standalone, doesnt require any synergy, is a bronze and so on...

I dont feel like there is much of a tug of war. Every deck runs point slam, removal and engines at the same time depending on the quality of cards their faction offers and whatever best net value can be achieved as a combination of these.
It just seems biased towards removal because engines are so strong that you are forced to run a ton of it.

^Maybe this is an issue with overall lack of card quantity as well.
 
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You can compare the Longship to Reinforced Trebuchet (NR) or Pikeman (NG). These cards can be annoying if you cannot deal with them but there are several cards like these and they are far from being broken or game deciding cards (imho).

Best way to get better a idea of a card - especially if you hate it - is to play it yourself. Some cards seem to be extremly strong when facing them but when you play them yourself you might experience not getting tons of value from these cards. Sometimes there are good counters, sometimes they need to be set up or you can play around them.
 
they are far from being broken or game deciding cards (imho).
Are they really tho?
If you can not deal with these they are 12+11 points considering you go first playing them and your opponent has 2/10 cards that arent units but plays a unit first.
They are double their provision cost in points if you can not remove them, they give more points than the average gold AND enable all the bloodthirsts you could ever want.

sometimes they need to be set up or you can play around them.
As ive pointed out multiple times this thing requires 0 setup and you cant play around it other than by reacting to it after its played and just dealing with it.

And just to make this clear again..
Basically saying that as long as cards like this exist, you are pretty much forced to run a large amount of powerful removal because otherwise you just lose instantly.
Wether or not its actually playable in the current meta isnt relevant for this aspect.
reposted for emphasis
 
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If you can not deal with these they are 12+11 points considering you go first playing them and your opponent has 2/10 cards that arent units but plays a unit first.

That´s true but it is true for almost every engine card in the game. If you have no answer to arbalest, spellweaver or other engines you will lose the game. This is kind of the basic idea behind engines. I would understand if you had problems with botchling since it does something similar but is much harder to remove and is played in almost every NR deck. But Longship doesn´t even sees much play.

You should really play some SK and put the card into your deck. It´s not that great.
 
Basically saying that as long as cards like this exist, you are pretty much forced to run a large amount of powerful removal because otherwise you just lose instantly.
Wether or not its actually playable in the current meta isnt relevant for this aspect.
I know this is a hard concept. Please try to understand it.

Botchling is a gold btw.
 
Longship is actually among the worst 5 provision cards for skellige and maybe in the game.
It can be killed/locked/moved to melee row, sucks vs few unit decks, predictable, helps self hurt enemy decks to an extent, etc... most of the time you get just the 4 points from it (the base power) which is horrible for 5 provisions.
For comparison, every faction has 4-5 provision units that can bring value without a cap and have less restrictions on them.
 
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