Lords of the Fallen

[volsung]

There are many games with "choice" coming out. For instance Telltale's The Walking Dead. That also doesn't make them an RPG. But cRPG's usually have characters with attributes, decision making, etc., so what? The difference is how a particular character affects the world, how decisions reflect in-game and how they open or close real gameplay opportunities.

In one of these action games, can you simply bypass a fight? Can you create a completely different scenario if your character allows it? Can you choose to side with a character who might or might not be a villain or kill him/her on sight? Can your abilities give you information to decide and open up dialogue lines and entire quest lines because of what your character knows?

I don't think LotF does that, I don't think Dark Souls does it either and as far as I know none of the other action games even bother with it. I know genres don't matter in the end and we all benefit from getting good games, but there are a few very broad and distinct categories (strategy, action, RPG, etc.) of games and they carry expectations with them. A game touted as RPG should do some of the above, otherwise it's an elaborate (possibly awesome) action game. Or a hybrid, of which we have many. For instance, if I picked a game labeled as "driving" or "racing" and instead it happens to be a shooter where we happen to be on a car (like those railway shooting scenes in Metro) I'd be a little disappointed regardless of how awesome that game is. I would certainly not call it a racing game.

In any case this is all very irrelevant to this game. RPG or not, I'd like to know more about what makes it more than just a "Polish Dark Souls".

 

[Aaden]

RPG or not, I'd like to know more about what makes it more than just a "Polish Dark Souls".

The fact that Deck13 is involved in the development - to what degree I do not know - also makes it a "German Dark Souls". :huh::hai:

 

[Aes Sídhe]

Not in my books. An RPG needs more roleplaying than that. Stats and classes ist only ONE level of roleplaying. The other one is actual decision making or choice & consequence (e.g. in dialogues).

You see you prove you are talking pontificating about something you have never even experienced. Dark Souls does present the player with options in various ways as well as combat, magic & role. Choice of path taken is there, it is not precisely linear, and if you choose you can kill the initially friendly NPCs changing various outcomes for your playthrough. Like I sais I could cite more, and still can, but this topic of conversation is old & tedious for many of us who've been around for a while.

"action RPGs" are pure combat-driven games like Dark Souls

Pretty sure you just called Dark Souls an RPG. Yu know we can all make our own classifications for whatever but that just inhibits conversation. Esperanto didn't do too well and many people actually agreed to learn it. If you wish to make your own language i'd suggest you dwell on that failure first.
@gregski; Sorry mate, that's my last word on the topic, no matter what.

 

[Scholdarr]

You see you prove you are talking pontificating about something you have never even experienced. Dark Souls does present the player with options in various ways as well as combat, magic & role. Choice of path taken is there, it is not precisely linear, and if you choose you can kill the initially friendly NPCs changing various outcomes for your playthrough. Like I sais I could cite more, and still can, but this topic of conversation is old & tedious for many of us who've been around for a while.

I've played both Dark Souls and I'm probably around longer than you are. Let*s just stop this kind of discussion in which you use such statements...

But no, I never called Dark Souls an RPG. I said "choice that is not combat related". If your only choice is about whether you kill a guy or not it's 100% combat/fighting related and that's not enough to be an RPG for me. It it is enough for you, fine, where's the problem?

But yeah, back to topic...

 

[Aes Sídhe]

"action RPGs" are pure combat-driven games like Dark Souls

Repeated for emphasis.

 

[volsung]

The issue here was that hardcore RPG implies using a strict and "pure" approach to role-playing games where everything, from exploration to combat to dialogue and actions to story and narrative, is mediated by the player's character and the player's deliberation. Utilizing action (reflex based) style combat doesn't make a game not an RPG, but it certainly isn't a "by the book" RPG, whatever that is.

I think we can all agree they simply mislabeled it. They mean it's an intense, challenging and non casual (hardcore) game with some element of choice, such as customizable talents, a selection of weapons and, just maybe, different game paths. Whether this is a sufficient feature for a game to enter the class of "RPG" is a different topic.

 

[Aes Sídhe]

Ok, how about this then, since choice & consequences in path taken, or "combat" choices leading to consequences don't seem to count, and dialogue choices which provide consequences is some peoples absolute requirement:

Laurentius of the Great Swamp

"If you speak to him after meeting the Daughter of Chaos in Quelaag's nest or speaking with the witch in Blighttown or possessing one of the Chaos pyromancy, he will ask you where you found such awesome pyromancy. If you agree to reveal him what you know the next time you come back to Firelink Shrine, he will be gone. "

Just one example of a dialogue choice that results in different behaviour from an NPC and consequences for the player.

Satisfied? Somehow I doubt it

Many people just despise twitch gaming, is what I think.

 

[volsung]

Ok, how about this then, since choice & consequences in path taken, or "combat" choices leading to consequences don't seem to count, and dialogue choices which provide consequences is some peoples absolute requirement:

Laurentius of the Great Swamp

"If you speak to him after meeting the Daughter of Chaos in Quelaag's nest or speaking with the witch in Blighttown or possessing one of the Chaos pyromancy, he will ask you where you found such awesome pyromancy. If you agree to reveal him what you know the next time you come back to Firelink Shrine, he will be gone. "

Just one example of a dialogue choice that results in different behaviour from an NPC and consequences for the player.

Satisfied? Somehow I doubt it

Many people just despise twitch gaming, is what I think.

That's a very good example. Very good way of presenting your argument. I still think Dark Souls isn't a "full fledged" RPG but I can only agree with you that it has more elements than just combat. RPG as a genre has been widened in the last few years and with examples like these, I certainly consider it more of an RPG than I did before. I don't think action choices aren't enough, it's just that many times these don't really qualify as deliberate planning and don't exactly affect gameplay opportunities (unless you mean the extreme case of taking the completely different left or right path). There are choices in many levels, and decisions happen even in the perceptual level (for instance the quick decisions made in driving or fighting games).

I just think basic customization is not enough for a game to be an RPG. There are games like Alien/Zombie Shooter which are pure action but still feature experience points, attributes and customizable equipment. There are others like King of Dragon Pass that are labeled as strategy but feature some serious decision making with serious in-game impact. So I don't know anymore.

In any case, I like your argument and I think you make a very good case for both DS and this game, potentially...

 

[Aes Sídhe]

I don't want or mean to extend this conversation, but I have a few points from my own experience that are important for us as gamers, and for gaming in general, and it chimes with other conversations we have had.

Dark Souls 1 sat on my machine for about a year before I finally got to grips with it. I must've attempted the introductory area ~10 times, giving up in frustration each time and leaving it for another ~month, yet knowing there was something there worth returning to, and seeing my failure more my problem than that of the game. It's combat is extremely difficult to learn to play - lesser than but not unlike vanilla TW2 - but once you do it's massive reward in terms of satisfaction is relatively greater as you'd expect.

It deserves to be viewed as a new way of implementing oldskool notions in modern gaming, with its difficulty level, no handholding, obscure story, and the combat system itself is quite simply the most consistent melee fighting there has ever been in a game. The stance > attack move > strike > recover > stance (where you are most vulnerable during parts 2 - 4) is authentic and appropriate, a truly wonderful system. Consistency is the word most applicable to this game across all it's systems. The dearth of story delivered by direct exposition, rather delivered through loneliness, tone, NPC behaviour & artefact provenance, is in fact extremely refreshing, and I have to tell you the truth I discovered to my own surprise: This game involved me - made me feel my character - more than any other RPG except TW2 (Of course complex narrative wins out, but this method works too!).

It opened & broadened my mind to new possibilities for roleplaying games, really it did. While I personally accept the genre "action-rpg" due to it's twitch-heavy low-narrative nature, it's action is nothing like Batman, Fallout 3, or anything else more action / twitch than rpg. Each weapon, shield, magic, alters the combat phase timing producing immense variation in gameplay based on how you choose to play, this factor differentiates it from typical "action" based systems.

 

[volsung]

Too bad it's Steam only.

 

[Aes Sídhe]

Erm, no its not, unless you mean sole digital download source - no comment... but my boxed Prepare to Die edition doesn't require steam, and they are still for sale ~£15.

On a related point I made earlier (regarding "Combat choices & consequences" ala choosing to kill initially friendly NPCs that was dismissed by LordCrash as insignificant and not C&C)... here's the words of inXile’s Brian Fargo in regards Wasteland 2s multiple tracks of C&C:

You can do a specific thing or take a certain NPC with you and open something up. “Or you can shoot the guy in the head,” he adds, closing that thread off to you any further.

He seems to have no problem accepting that action / inaction in deeds as well as words are entirely valid forms of C&C, and of course they are. Aren't they in life?

(must admit i'm glad I stay away from most game info until close to release, I recall W2 getting slammed a while back, but I really like what I'm hearing now)

 

[volsung]

Erm, no its not, unless you mean sole digital download source - no comment... but my boxed Prepare to Die edition doesn't require steam, and they are still for sale ~£15.

On a related point I made earlier (regarding "Combat choices & consequences" ala choosing to kill initially friendly NPCs that was dismissed by LordCrash as insignificant and not C&C)... here's the words of inXile’s Brian Fargo in regards Wasteland 2s multiple tracks of C&C:



He seems to have no problem accepting that action / inaction in deeds as well as words are entirely valid forms of C&C, and of course they are. Aren't they in life?

(must admit i'm glad I stay away from most game info until close to release, I recall W2 getting slammed a while back, but I really like what I'm hearing now)

Guess I'll have to try a disc version. I thought it was originally linked to GfWL (which was even WORSE!) and most things that were GfWL linked switched to Steam. If the disc version requires no online activation or account linking whatsoever, then I guess I'm in.

About "choice and consequence" (I don't like that term by the way, it is touted as such a great new thing nowadays but it should simply arise naturally from variable gameplay... anyway) I agree that a choice may be any type of action, such as executing a movement or speaking a line. The problem is in most games killing or not killing an NPC has no impact in the game other than killing the NPC, period. Maybe you skip a quest, big deal. But how does the game react to it? And if you don't how would the game behave differently?

The point is opening and closing gameplay opportunities based on what you choose to do and what your character is capable of doing. If you simply skip a monster in an FPS, nobody cares and nothing changes. If, for instance, killing the NPC affects how you complete a mission, then that's awesome. Remember the buried alive quest in Baldur's Gate II. Eventually you learn there is a hostage situation which you can resolve in different ways: lawfully or chaotically, losing reputation in the process but gaining the silver pantaloons. A cheesy route even lets you get the pantaloons without extortion if you have a skilled thief. And the pantaloons become a part of a special device by the end of the trilogy, in ToB. Long way to go for such a simple decision. Or you could just kill the quest giver like Fargo says, but you'd lose much. It's more than just quest or no quest.

So I suppose it's all about execution, not methods.

In any case you got me interested in DS and of course I am expecting Wasteland 2 any minute now... well in September.

 

[Aes Sídhe]

Oh it is GfW, but, as long as you purchase the game, there are viable & in my view as a conscientious objector, perfectly acceptable means to refrain from that.

If you do go for it, my advice would be to play with a controller - not the way I like to play, but some games really do need it, and this was one for me anyway. It also requires the "dsfix" mod to bring the PC port up to scratch, which it certainly does (resolution anyway, tbh now that I think on it I might not have given dsfix's mouse improvements a fair go, maybe its good enough now).

The C&C comments weren't directed at you, rather at those who are intractable on the subject of new ways of doing things. And if I seem to have lockjaw on this it's only because I view such intractability in gamers as dangerous & potentially stagnating in gaming as the console cycle.

NPC's in DS are a vital part of the game, like I say it is often through them the narrative is delivered, and killing them can have a major effect on the game, even to the point of essentially breaking your playthrough (oldskool again eh! ).

Oh aye, I can't recall BG2 very well anymore, must remember I played all these things at launch, lot of water under many bridges since

 

[gregski]

So, I guess we're not on topic anymore?

 

[volsung]

Well sort of. This whole thing was about discussing the type of game Lords of the Fallen might be, and the obvious reference is Dark Souls. It wasn't really about Dark Souls or the definition of RPG's, although we might have gone a bit off topic...

 

[Aes Sídhe]

The Story so far:

LoTF PR claims its a "Hardcore RPG".

Punter #1 says "Thats not my definition of hardcore... is it ?"

Punter #2 says "Thats not even an RPG, it's like Dark Souls !"

Punter #3 says "What? Of Course Dark Souls is an RPG."

cue re-examination of RPG ingredients and recipe, since you can't even consider the "hardcore" bit, until the RPG bit is agreed. (e.g. hardcore action game & hardcore RPG, are likely using the descriptive term hardcore quite differently.

Curtain rises.....

 

[ReptilePZ]

I agree, the hammer looks pretty badass.

 

[gregski]

Some new gameplay:

The screen tearing is because of the capturing gone wrong, not to be present in the real game, as confirmed by Eurogamer.

 

[Garrison72]

I'm impressed. Starting to look more like it's own thing than a DS clone now. I really like that they included different stances and how gear affects your movement. Seems ridiculously hard too.

 

[gregski]

I'm impressed. Starting to look more like it's own thing than a DS clone now. I really like that they included different stances and how gear affects your movement. Seems ridiculously hard too.

So, you should also read this: http://www.polygon.com/2014/9/22/68...view-ps4-playstation-4-xbox-one-pc-dark-souls (yeah, it's Polygon, but it's worth a click this time as it's highly informative about the game).

It seems like there are a lot of small details that will affect the gameplay and actually set this game apart from DS. In fact, I can't wait for its release, definitely something to pass time waiting for TW3. Love me some new IP.