Ludonarrative dissonance

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The game does not present doing the Main story as soon as possible as the right way to play the game. (it in fact suggests the opposite)
How? For me it pretty much pushes you towards the MQ right away - you wake up and have to go see the ripper doc, as you have a virus, that you don't know how bad it is.
that aside, you are also exagerating, what category of content is completely incongruous? you can likely do 60-70% of the side jobs with the narrative pauses. You can also do different gigs in different playthroughs with the time between the narrative if you wish.
As I said, I am curious if that's the case....I don't believe it is, but I might be wrong:)
You can do the whole of Watson before meeting Evelyn. There is no narrative rush to meet her. You can do gigs between story missions, hence the I'll call you back parts. There is narrative justification for doing any gig, money.

.....kinda?....the 'narrative rush' is 'why not do it?'. I mean here is where the headcanoning comes - I don't see why Dex (or Evelyn herself) will wait for you a week or two:)
...same for the maelstrom quest - you can easily justify a day or 2 (or even 3) for preparation (as you very well might end in a giant gun fight). But beyond that?

[...]
 
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Ludo narrative dissonance(the subject if thread) is dissonance between the game design, and the narrative design.
Yeah...

you are describing a dissonance between what you want the game design to be and what the game is designed to be.
No. Both myself and the OP are describing what is literally in the game.

The game does not present doing 100% gigs and assault as required, in fact it presents them as optional. The game does not present doing the Main story as soon as possible as the right way to play the game. (it in fact suggests the opposite)
Okay, when did the discussion get derailed into completionism? This has nothing to do with what anyone has been saying.

narrative motivation and player motivation clashing is not always bad game/narrative design. Player motivation is different for each player.
You're speaking in generalities. This is about the specific narrative disconnect in the story, which is both logical AND emotional.

creating tension between character motivation and other narrative motivations is generally a key to interesting storytelling. The game design and narrative design want that tension to exist in this game. The conflict between what V is told to do to survive and what V wants to do with their life is a central theme of the narrative.
That would be an example of narrative tension; tension within the context of the story. This discussion is about narrative versus GAMEPLAY.

You are ignoring the part of the narrative that the player provides(this is an RPG), And other Narratives presented in game. The player creates V's history, their values, who they are as a person. Some narratives reject that the main purpose of V's life should be only survival.
What are these "other narratives" presented in the game?

You're arguing here that it is the job of the player to, essentially, roleplay the ludonarrative dissonance out of existence. Not really a great argument that it isn't there in the first place.

that aside, you are also exagerating, what category of content is completely incongruous? you can likely do 60-70% of the side jobs with the narrative pauses. You can also do different gigs in different playthroughs with the time between the narrative if you wish.
I already gave you a very simple example. So did the OP. What is exaggerated about any of what has been said?

You can do the whole of Watson before meeting Evelyn. There is no narrative rush to meet her. You can do gigs between story missions, hence the I'll call you back parts. There is narrative justification for doing any gig, money.
And then when the game moves on to the second act? That is where the problems start.
 
.....kinda?....the 'narrative rush' is 'why not do it?'. I mean here is where the headcanoning comes - I don't see why Dex (or Evelyn herself) will wait for you a week or two:)
...same for the maelstrom quest - you can easily justify a day or 2 (or even 3) for preparation (as you very well might end in a giant gun fight). But beyond that?
Clearing, all gigs in Watson in act 1 will take you around 15 hours real life time, it's 120 hours ingame time, so 5 full (ingame) days. Where is your narrative dissonance?
 
How? For me it pretty much pushes you towards the MQ right away - you wake up and have to go see the ripper doc, as you have a virus, that you don't know how bad it is.

As I said, I am curious if that's the case....I don't believe it is, but I might be wrong:)


.....kinda?....the 'narrative rush' is 'why not do it?'. I mean here is where the headcanoning comes - I don't see why Dex (or Evelyn herself) will wait for you a week or two:)
...same for the maelstrom quest - you can easily justify a day or 2 (or even 3) for preparation (as you very well might end in a giant gun fight). But beyond that?

[...]

If you are the type of person that must do things as soon as someone tells you, then you may only be able to side content on breaks, but that is not common irl, thats just your personality. If some one asks me to do something, I set the time based on other things I desire to do. Especially if some one wants you to do something big like the heist.

Doing side quests doesn't take as long as you think. a game day is 3 hours long. each gig is like 8-20 minutes depending how you play it.

there are about 27 gigs in Watson. thats between 1.4 to 2.7 in game days to do it all. A dude/chick asking you to risk your life vs Arasaka can wait 1-3 days.

realistically Evelyn and dex would wait as long as needed for this job. Its not an easy job. Its a job which almost everyone will have to disappear after, so it has to be done right.
 
realistically Evelyn and dex would wait as long as needed for this job. Its not an easy job. Its a job which almost everyone will have to disappear after, so it has to be done right.
Except the job is dependent on a number of factors that may change if left too long. The game does not address that directly, but to say that Dex would have the meeting to get the ball rolling, then sit back for an indefinite amount of time is a stretch, in my opinion.
 
Yeah...


No. Both myself and the OP are describing what is literally in the game.


Okay, when did the discussion get derailed into completionism? This has nothing to do with what anyone has been saying.


You're speaking in generalities. This is about the specific narrative disconnect in the story, which is both logical AND emotional.


That would be an example of narrative tension; tension within the context of the story. This discussion is about narrative versus GAMEPLAY.


What are these "other narratives" presented in the game?

You're arguing here that it is the job of the player to, essentially, roleplay the ludonarrative dissonance out of existence. Not really a great argument that it isn't there in the first place.


I already gave you a very simple example. So did the OP. What is exaggerated about any of what has been said?


And then when the game moves on to the second act? That is where the problems start.

1)the gameplay does not suggest that doing as many gigs as possible is the goal of the game. The gameplay presents gigs and crime as optional, do if you want to do it content. What do you think the design of the gameplay encourages, and what do you think the design of the narrative encourages.

2)the other narratives are other stories which suggest that rushing the Main quest is not the most important thing. Johnny's narrative says working with arasaka wont be fruitfull, and is not something you should do. the Sineater narrative suggests that death is inevitable and the goal is to spread your message before dying. Panam's narrative puts family before self, and community as the best means of survival. Misty narrative puts spiritual understanding and awakening as the primary concern in life. The VDB reject all things corporate and seek to become virtual entities. Rushing the main quest in game is considered the worst ending by many. There is the personal player narrative. The narrative is literally telling you that living life only concerned with survival leads to you to be easily manipulated, and an unfullfilling ending.

3)if you aren't talking about achieving high levels of completionism, what are you talking about? the game gives you multiple breaks where you cannot progress the main story. in that time you can do a large portion of the content in the game. one game day is 3 hours, if some one doesn't call you for 2 days you got time for like 30-40 quests

4)what gameplay is clashing? Specifically, what do you think is the game design of the game asking you to do here?

5)In a Role Playing Game, playing a role is part of the game design. Much of the content is designed so the player can act out a role. The player's role playing is a part of the ludo, and the narrative design. It is clear this is expected behavior, thats why they give options that line up with some types of roleplaying and not others. For example: V is given game/narrative options to not be a killer, they are also given game/narrative options that require killing. This means the player is meant to play a role, and add that to the narrative, which alters the game play. A person who refuses to kill, should never take the sin eater questline.

6) the example I started debating with you, was why would anyone do a side quest while they were pursuing the main quest, if you are saying the narrative leaves no room to do side quests, thats an exaggeration, they literally give you days between quests. If you are saying there is no narrative reason to do so, thats incorrect, its narratively established money = power and being a big player is what allows you to survive in NC.
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Except the job is dependent on a number of factors that may change if left too long. The game does not address that directly, but to say that Dex would have the meeting to get the ball rolling, then sit back for an indefinite amount of time is a stretch, in my opinion.

he literally expects you to meet with a client, take care of whatever concerns she has, which he doesn't even know what they are. And negotiate with a hostile faction, which he was unable to do, given days of prep, possibly contacting and making a deal with a corporation. Then perform everything needed for a totally different and highly risky mission. He would be EXTREMELY lucky if anyone could/would do that in 3 days.
 
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he literally expects you to meet with a client, take care of whatever concerns she has, which he doesn't even know what they are. And negotiate with a hostile faction, which he was unable to do, given days of prep, possibly contacting and making a deal with a corporation. Then perform everything needed for a totally different and highly risky mission. He would be EXTREMELY lucky if anyone could/would do that in 3 days.
What has "x" amount of days got to do with anything? Where are you getting that number from? The point is, the narrative suggests a sense of urgency right from the point of meeting Dex. For instance, the whole situation with the acquisition of the Flathead is complicated because the situation changed, leaving Dex wanting V to find out where he stands on the deal. The idea that the narrative allows for the heist to be postponed indefinitely does not hold water. The game allows you to ignore it and explore Watson, but it does go against the logical narrative.
 
What has "x" amount of days got to do with anything? Where are you getting that number from? The point is, the narrative suggests a sense of urgency right from the point of meeting Dex. For instance, the whole situation with the acquisition of the Flathead is complicated because the situation changed, leaving Dex wanting V to find out where he stands on the deal. The idea that the narrative allows for the heist to be postponed indefinitely does not hold water. The game allows you to ignore it and explore Watson, but it does go against the logical narrative.

I did not say indefinitely, I said 1-3 days.

if you look at my previous posts I matched out that doing all 27 Watson quests would take 1.4 to 3 in game days.

And no it doesn't go against the logical narrative, it goes against the meta game narrative of doing the Main story is the most important thing to do. Why, logically, is it more important to do Dex's request ASAP, when there are other paying gigs as well, that are less complicated and pay faster. Why should I ignore flaming crotch man to do what Dex wants? Why should I ignore a cyberpsycho because Dex wants me to call meredith? Ask a freelancer how to organize which jobs to do when, and you'll get 100 different answers.

There is no logical reason, its just the player deciding what threads they want to follow.
 
I did not say indefinitely, I said 1-3 days.

if you look at my previous posts I matched out that doing all 27 Watson quests would take 1.4 to 3 in game days.

And no it doesn't go against the logical narrative, it goes against the meta game narrative of doing the Main story is the most important thing to do. Why, logically, is it more important to do Dex's request ASAP, when there are other paying gigs as well, that are less complicated and pay faster. Why should I ignore flaming crotch man to do what Dex wants? Why should I ignore a cyberpsycho because Dex wants me to call meredith? Ask a freelancer how to organize which jobs to do when, and you'll get 100 different answers.

There is no logical reason, its just the player deciding what threads they want to follow.
My point was that it is your number. Your argument is based on the thought that the world revolves around V and while from a gameplay perspective, that is true, it doesn't make sense that Dex would be happy to wait for V indefinitely and risk not being able to pull the heist off instead of hiring someone else. It's no more a problem in this game than in other games to be fair. It's a difficult thing to do, make the main quest have weight and importance, but at the same time be something that a player could logically delay or ignore indefinitely. Lots of mentions of Fallout 4 here and Fallout 3 really wasn't much better. You were a 19 year old, booted out of your vault and looking for your dad and in the original ending, before the hand-wavery of the Broken Steel DLC, the best ending involved the player character sacrificing themselves.
 
My point was that it is your number. Your argument is based on the thought that the world revolves around V and while from a gameplay perspective, that is true, it doesn't make sense that Dex would be happy to wait for V indefinitely and risk not being able to pull the heist off instead of hiring someone else. It's no more a problem in this game than in other games to be fair. It's a difficult thing to do, make the main quest have weight and importance, but at the same time be something that a player could logically delay or ignore indefinitely. Lots of mentions of Fallout 4 here and Fallout 3 really wasn't much better. You were a 19 year old, booted out of your vault and looking for your dad and in the original ending, before the hand-wavery of the Broken Steel DLC, the best ending involved the player character sacrificing themselves.

Dex probably expects that the things he are asking you to do might take days.
1)Dex came to you, the implication is that you guys are the best people for the job, not replaceable cogs. He never even implied that he had a timetable
2)Dex asks you to coordinate with 3 different people, two of whom may be hostile, he doesn't know any of their schedules or when they might make time for you.
3)Evelyn is straight up not even available until the night time. T bug supposedly needs time to plan and set things up.

4) you are a merc, dex would likely expect you to do other gigs, some of which you may have received before you even meet him.

You keep saying indefinitely delay, as I said I am not saying unlimited delay. I am saying there is no narrative reason why you need to do dex's mission on turbo. If a client has a timetable with any type of freelancer, they must tell them their timetable.

The world does not revolve around V, but it doesn't revolve around Dex either. And Dex hasn't even made demands that you hurry up and do what he wants now. And, story wise dex leaves it completely up to V and Jackie's team how to solve all these problems, he can't have expectations on how fast it is when he doesn't even know whats required.


Now, I can see why a player might feel like they should do dex's content, it has cutscenes, the log on the side of the game tells you to do it unless you hit Z when something else pops up. Its clearly important. But important doesn't mean the only logical action is to do it first.

The other thing is, the main narrative is never going to tell you when to do gigs, they are designed to be optional content the player pursues based on their own desires, at their own pace if that character feels a desire/need to. That is both by narrative and game design. The question is whether there is room in the narrative to do so, and there is. The player/charachter narrative is the main determiner of side gigs.
 
Dex probably expects that the things he are asking you to do might take days.
1)Dex came to you, the implication is that you guys are the best people for the job, not replaceable cogs. He never even implied that he had a timetable

OK, no. That is just not true:) When you ask Jackie why Dex (big fish in the underworld of cyberpunk) is interested in you two, he tells you that he is not. He is interested in T-bug. Only her knowing you is getting you Dex's attention. At that point, you are nothing special - not hard to find replacements for you and Jackie. In fact, that is a good reason why Jackie is a dummy:)

...as for the rest of your points.....I feel you are just giving the game too many chances. When the game does something wrong you are too fast to go 'yes, but if you look at it from this point...' . Anyway, my point was that you and Jackie were very far away from being irreplaceable:)
 
no need in exploring watson and blasting scavs
when it's possible to become a legend overnight

even if the merc wants to prepare for pickup and heist
t-bug and del are important while v and jackie just are carriers

after heist between takemura missions v has time only to help panam, judy, johnny and do a few gigs
anything more demands dening relic issue
 
OK, no. That is just not true:) When you ask Jackie why Dex (big fish in the underworld of cyberpunk) is interested in you two, he tells you that he is not. He is interested in T-bug. Only her knowing you is getting you Dex's attention. At that point, you are nothing special - not hard to find replacements for you and Jackie. In fact, that is a good reason why Jackie is a dummy:)

...as for the rest of your points.....I feel you are just giving the game too many chances. When the game does something wrong you are too fast to go 'yes, but if you look at it from this point...' . Anyway, my point was that you and Jackie were very far away from being irreplaceable:)

There are many perspectives in NC. It is suggested that dex left NC in a bad situation, and is no longer that relevant from Claire. Vik suggests he didnt leave on good terms. Rogue suggests trust and reputation is more important than $$. T bug apparently tells Dex, she wishes to work with you guys.

but the whys and wherefores are up to the player. Fact is dex approached you with a job, this means he picked you out of all his options. This means there is something about you worthwhile.

You are a freelancer, you work on your own terms. If you don't like a client you tell them to fk off.

but you don't even need to, because Dex never made any time based commands, and left the whole entire mission, down to the timing, up to your team. He never even suggests you should hurry up.

This is not me giving the game chances, this is literally how I played the game the first time I played. I did like 10-20 side gigs before doing the heist because I wanted to be prepared to do combat the way I preferred to, and they started me off with a pistol and I wanted to be an h2h brawler. Essentially Dex had to wait until I felt comfortable possibly fighting maelstrom. Which makes narrative and logical sense. They tell you to be prepared for the heist of a lifetime. Somebody might want to take a couple days to prepare.

And if Dex wants ME to do the gig which is likely to kill me, I want to be ready.
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no need in exploring watson and blasting scavs
when it's possible to become a legend overnight

even if the merc wants to prepare for pickup and heist
t-bug and del are important while v and jackie just are carriers

after heist between takemura missions v has time only to help panam, judy, johnny and do a few gigs
anything more demands dening relic issue

V and Jackie basically did 60% of the planning. They made a deal, or fought the whole of maelstrom, or militech to obtain a rare robot, they literally could have taken over the whole mission there. They used the braindance to figure out where the relic is, and what type of security they needed to get around, which was key info to the job, they could have sold to anyone. They had to make Evelyn feel comfortable. All dex did was provide money. This was not a simple pick up/carrier mission. Which both Jackie and V remark on, we literally were doing the fixer's job
 
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1)the gameplay does not suggest that doing as many gigs as possible is the goal of the game. The gameplay presents gigs and crime as optional, do if you want to do it content. What do you think the design of the gameplay encourages, and what do you think the design of the narrative encourages.
The narrative suggests V is dying at an alarming rate. This is emphasized by the "relic malfunction" that occurs daily, interrupting gameplay. This creates a sense of urgency around resolving the issue of the relic, as it is made clear that V's chances deteriorate the longer it takes them to do so.

Meanwhile, the gameplay suggests doing gigs, dispatches, and side content. Constant phone calls and text messages bombard the player. Many gameplay systems such as crafting, cosmetics, and armor, require extensive metagaming to take advantage of, such as repeatedly waiting 24 hours at shops.

The fact that these elements are optional, or things the player merely "wants" to do, does nothing to resolve the tension. Suggesting that this content doesn't present an issue due to being optional is tantamount to admitting it is superfluous. As soon as the player chooses to engage in any part of this content, the dissonance returns in full force.

And that's the problem. Taking advantage of opportunities presented by the gameplay results in the conflict under discussion in this thread. Maintaining that certain parts of the game must be ignored in order to assuage it is to admit flaws with the game design itself.

2)the other narratives are other stories which suggest that rushing the Main quest is not the most important thing.
Well, no. It isn't possible to rush the main quest from a narrative perspective, since the passage of time is fixed. It is only possible to delay the progression of the main quest, by doing things which are not the main quest.

Johnny's narrative says working with arasaka wont be fruitfull, and is not something you should do. the Sineater narrative suggests that death is inevitable and the goal is to spread your message before dying. Panam's narrative puts family before self, and community as the best means of survival. Misty narrative puts spiritual understanding and awakening as the primary concern in life. The VDB reject all things corporate and seek to become virtual entities. Rushing the main quest in game is considered the worst ending by many. There is the personal player narrative.
These are post hoc justifications. The player has no way of knowing what messages the rest of the side content might contain until well into or after completing it. In the meantime, the issue of V's impending death looms.

Furthermore, these insightful narrative themes only apply to some content. The large amount of open world content, a significant feature and draw of the gameplay, is just sitting there at odds with the central problem of the main storyline.

The narrative is literally telling you that living life only concerned with survival leads to you to be easily manipulated, and an unfullfilling ending.
The narrative also tells you that you're dying. The progression of the relic's deterioration is a constant reminder of this, throughout many of the quests mentioned above.

And again, this is a post hoc justification. Neither V nor the player have any concept of the ending until, well, the ending.

3)if you aren't talking about achieving high levels of completionism, what are you talking about? the game gives you multiple breaks where you cannot progress the main story. in that time you can do a large portion of the content in the game. one game day is 3 hours, if some one doesn't call you for 2 days you got time for like 30-40 quests
Just because the game gives you time to complete this amount of content doesn't mean it makes narrative sense -- hence the dissonance.

4)what gameplay is clashing? Specifically, what do you think is the game design of the game asking you to do here?
We've been discussing it. At length.

5)In a Role Playing Game, playing a role is part of the game design. Much of the content is designed so the player can act out a role. The player's role playing is a part of the ludo, and the narrative design. It is clear this is expected behavior, thats why they give options that line up with some types of roleplaying and not others. For example: V is given game/narrative options to not be a killer, they are also given game/narrative options that require killing. This means the player is meant to play a role, and add that to the narrative, which alters the game play. A person who refuses to kill, should never take the sin eater questline.
The dissonance here defies roleplay. It provides both a logical and emotional discontinuity. If it could be ameliorated by roleplay, it wouldn't be a point of contention.

6) the example I started debating with you, was why would anyone do a side quest while they were pursuing the main quest, if you are saying the narrative leaves no room to do side quests, thats an exaggeration, they literally give you days between quests. If you are saying there is no narrative reason to do so, thats incorrect, its narratively established money = power and being a big player is what allows you to survive in NC.
Now you're confusing mechanics with narrative. Yes, mechanically, the main quest gives the player time to complete side content. But does it make narrative sense for V to be doing these things? That is the issue.
 
V and Jackie basically did 60% of the planning. They made a deal, or fought the whole of maelstrom, or militech to obtain a rare robot, they literally could have taken over the whole mission there. They used the braindance to figure out where the relic is, and what type of security they needed to get around, which was key info to the job, they could have sold to anyone. They had to make Evelyn feel comfortable. All dex did was provide money. This was not a simple pick up/carrier mission. Which both Jackie and V remark on, we literally were doing the fixer's job
hack the chip, pay money and go away
ofc game makes to fight with militech in the last area but it's bad quest design
fixer's job is to find mercs and briefly inform, anything more is a gift (dex, okada) or costs money (rogue)
t-bug finds way to the relic while v is just braindance and bot carrier
all wrong events were occasional and plans were easy pickups at first

interrupting gameplay.
definetely
i had to save/load cos malfunctions didn't disappear

large amount of open world content
it's content for players who decide to cancel all main side characters quests
and have to fill free time between main missions gap
 
it's content for players who decide to cancel all main side characters quests
and have to fill free time between main missions gap
Cyberpunk is presented as an open world game, meaning the player is presented with the option of going wherever they want and doing whatever they want -- open-ended exploration.

The problem, as we've been discussing, is that this doesn't make sense. The main story of this game does not make sense when paired with the gameplay of an open world. The narrative practically demands a closed world with a semi-linear or narrative-branching structure.

I believe this stems at least partly from CDPR wanting to present themselves as a "leader" in the open world RPG space. Therefore, they deemed a closed world would be unacceptable according to their identity as a studio, even if it would have better served the spirit of the game.
 
the same problem was with the witcher 3
find ciri? no, plz more gwent, girls and monster hunting

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player also shouldn't do a lot of side content to keep his level low
that's the only way to have a good fight with final boss
 
To be fair, that was also a problem in The Witcher 3...

Geralt is supposedly in a race against time to find Ciri before the Wild Hunt does and failing on that quest may lead to the world being destroyed. Despite that fact he can spend much of the game doing side gigs for peasants and romancing a few people in between rounds of Gwent.
not really, Geralt had a research / investigation mission, with only some clue here and there to follow, so his mission requires a "long time" (even just for the trip on horseback, not on an high speed train...). Ciri was in danger, sure, but no one knew how or when she could be REALLY in danger. Moreover the game world/set itself is very different from cyberpunk: witcher 3 is not a futuristic metropolis where life runs fast while you are about to expire with a "bomb" in your brain, but a medieval world in which Geralt, in his mission, faces a LONG and SLOW journey to reach his goal, and where he needs to keep himself along the way through his job as monster hunter....and to get information about Ciri he often has to do "favors", because nothing is for free. To me, It's perfectly in line and coherent, the analogy with cyberpunk and it's imminent death feeling doesn't have much sense imho.
 
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The narrative suggests V is dying at an alarming rate. This is emphasized by the "relic malfunction" that occurs daily, interrupting gameplay. This creates a sense of urgency around resolving the issue of the relic, as it is made clear that V's chances deteriorate the longer it takes them to do so.

Meanwhile, the gameplay suggests doing gigs, dispatches, and side content. Constant phone calls and text messages bombard the player. Many gameplay systems such as crafting, cosmetics, and armor, require extensive metagaming to take advantage of, such as repeatedly waiting 24 hours at shops.

The fact that these elements are optional, or things the player merely "wants" to do, does nothing to resolve the tension. Suggesting that this content doesn't present an issue due to being optional is tantamount to admitting it is superfluous. As soon as the player chooses to engage in any part of this content, the dissonance returns in full force.

And that's the problem. Taking advantage of opportunities presented by the gameplay results in the conflict under discussion in this thread. Maintaining that certain parts of the game must be ignored in order to assuage it is to admit flaws with the game design itself.


Well, no. It isn't possible to rush the main quest from a narrative perspective, since the passage of time is fixed. It is only possible to delay the progression of the main quest, by doing things which are not the main quest.


These are post hoc justifications. The player has no way of knowing what messages the rest of the side content might contain until well into or after completing it. In the meantime, the issue of V's impending death looms.

Furthermore, these insightful narrative themes only apply to some content. The large amount of open world content, a significant feature and draw of the gameplay, is just sitting there at odds with the central problem of the main storyline.


The narrative also tells you that you're dying. The progression of the relic's deterioration is a constant reminder of this, throughout many of the quests mentioned above.

And again, this is a post hoc justification. Neither V nor the player have any concept of the ending until, well, the ending.


Just because the game gives you time to complete this amount of content doesn't mean it makes narrative sense -- hence the dissonance.


We've been discussing it. At length.


The dissonance here defies roleplay. It provides both a logical and emotional discontinuity. If it could be ameliorated by roleplay, it wouldn't be a point of contention.


Now you're confusing mechanics with narrative. Yes, mechanically, the main quest gives the player time to complete side content. But does it make narrative sense for V to be doing these things? That is the issue.


1)Actually the nature of the relic and Vs chances of survival are never made clear. There are multiple sources with different answers to the question. Vik: hurry up and solve it. Hellman: Its already too late. Alt: as long as you don't die I can fix it.

2)My point is not that these actions are just what the player wants to do, its that these actions represent what V wants to do. And if V has time, doing what they want to do makes logical and narrative sense. One of the most important parts of the narrative in an RPG is the player/charachter.

Basically the whole problem is the game AND the narrative is designed such that the player creates V's story, but you don't accept that the game is literally designed for you the player to fill in V's role.

The game is designed after a TT rpg, the narrative and game design is built around that.

YOU are supposed to decide what V does when they have two days to themselves. YOU are supposed to create that narrative. YOU are supposed to decide if V likes Judy. YOU are supposed to decide if V trains before a dangerous mission or buys new gear. This is the narrative element the player provides, and it is the most important parts of the story. YOU decides if V trusts Johnny, or arasaka.

If V is cannot do anything until Takemura calls V, why wouldn't V do something she wants to do with that time? The main quest isn't going to tell you what V's interests are, thats up to the player to decide for V. The mainquest isn't going to tell V to take assassin jobs, thats up to V to decide.


The main quest gives you breaks, some of them forced breaks, so that the player can develop the other narratives in the game, the player/charachter narrative, the political narratives, the local narratives, some side characters backgrounds, an LI. And the player decides which of those they want to pursue. Its different for every player. And thats the whole point.
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My first V was a brawler/tech. One of his most important goals was the beat on the brat quests, he wanted to go mono et mono and test the limits of his h2h abilities. He wanted to learn crafting, and figure how to best gear up to fight h2h. He didnt trust Johnny and he didnt trust Arasaka. He romanced Panam. He got along well with Regina, and wakako, but didnt get too involved with other fixers, only doing their missions if it was convenient. I beat the game the first time in about 60 hours, 15-20 of which was spent on the first act, 2 on the ending. That means he spent about two weeks with the relic in game time. I got the star ending.

I didnt delay the story unreasonably, or do anything illogical. I followed story threads and gameplay naturally. It was natural for him to do beat on the brat, he was a boxer. Panam helped him out so he helped panam. I needed money and reputation early on for gorilla arms, so I did alot of ncpd stuff and Regina's missions. He interrupted assaults and solved crimes partially to help people.

The main story didnt get in the way of any of this. I, as a player made choices that V would make.

If you created your V character as a certain type of person, the rest of the story fills itself in. And thats how the gameplay, and the narrative is designed to work. V's life is a direct result if your choices, and thats not just dialog options, thats how you approach downtime, what order you do things in, what are your needs at the time.
 
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