{Major Spoilers] Endings And What really Happens

+
After playing the game multiple times and carefully looking at various conversations I've come to the conclusion that V is dead in all but one ending. First the obvious ending suicide. I think all agree that V dies here.

For the rest of the endings, except one, you are subject to soul killer. And this is why I say V is dead. Alt explained it that your "consciousness" or your soul is indeed killed and gone. What is placed back into the body, your or another's, is your engram which contains memories and psyche. You are stored as data and nothing more.

Johnny in other conversations says that he is in fact dead. Johnny can take over the body but his soul is long gone. So most of the endings are who gets the body or which body to place V's memories in.

There is only one ending where V is still the real V. And that is the Arasaka (devil) ending where V leaves to go back to Earth. The removal of the chip did not include sould killer so V is still the real V (what's left anyway).

In all other endings only the data/AI of V is restored.

Now the big question is does our consciousness really define us as who we are. What is a soul after all.
 
i think its hard to tell and what to belive
Silverhand tells you he didnt feal Soulkiller when you enter Mikoshi... maybe because he is dead.. or because it is different

then theres also this

so knwo knows...
there are some good topics about this on this forum...
 
Alt says that V's consciousness will be "returned" to their body in Mikoshi so it's left ambiguous. And The Zen Master tells V that they have two souls in one body during the last meditation, which would imply that Johnny still has a "soul" in all the ways that matter despite being an engram.

There's a thread on this -> Soulkiller technology
 
i think its hard to tell and what to belive
Silverhand tells you he didnt feal Soulkiller when you enter Mikoshi... maybe because he is dead.. or because it is different
And Alt tells you she applied an analgesic so you wouldn't feel the pain.

Alt says that V's consciousness will be "returned" to their body in Mikoshi so it's left ambiguous. And The Zen Master tells V that they have two souls in one body during the last meditation, which would imply that Johnny still has a "soul" in all the ways that matter despite being an engram.
Well, it'll feel like being "returned" to the engram, because it believes that it's V.

As for the two souls, I'd say that whatever the Johnny engram is still counts as a "person" even if I'd also say it isn't really Johnny Silverhand.
 
Alt says that V's consciousness will be "returned" to their body in Mikoshi so it's left ambiguous. And The Zen Master tells V that they have two souls in one body during the last meditation, which would imply that Johnny still has a "soul" in all the ways that matter despite being an engram.

There's a thread on this -> Soulkiller technology

Thanks for the link.

I don't recall every saying V's "consciousness" will be returned. I do recall saying V is an engram. And Alt says she can transfer the psyche. But consciousness is different.
 
Yup. Definitely one of the major questions of the game, and I don't think there is a right answer, and there shouldn't be, because it comes down to your personal philosophy. Its like the whole "do the star trek teleporters kill you" thing.

V is perceptibly the same person who enters Mikoshi when she leaves it. For me, that means that Soulkiller doesn't really matter. The soul is "transferred" with the player, if that makes any sense.
 
Thanks for the link.

I don't recall every saying V's "consciousness" will be returned. I do recall saying V is an engram. And Alt says she can transfer the psyche. But consciousness is different.
I agree, but she uses consciousness/psyche/construct interchangeably a couple of times, which complicates things. Didn't find the exact phrase I was talking about but at 14:04 in this video you can hear Alt and V's perspective on being an engram.
 
I agree, but she uses consciousness/psyche/construct interchangeably a couple of times, which complicates things. Didn't find the exact phrase I was talking about but at 14:04 in this video you can hear Alt and V's perspective on being an engram.
this conversation is real hell for choice for netrunner roleplay
alt directly says that cyberspace is the way to survive and this is what V wants
and you don’t know what the developers are up to, but having chosen to give body to js, you understand that you was deceived, because devs don’t show you cyberspace, which really pissed me off
and in the end they almost kill the hero with the misty words

There is only one ending where V is still the real V. And that is the Arasaka (devil) ending where V leaves to go back to Earth. The removal of the chip did not include sould killer so V is still the real V (what's left anyway).
it's debatable
at the first V awakes in the cyberspace where in all endings he has already separated from johnny with soulkiller
 
@enkee23 yeah true
but the problem is...
you dont play V at this final aspect of the game.. you play Silverhand
and hes a selfish prick

but i think its all great...
because everyone dose have its own belives and imagination of what will happen
 
But even though you are in the SpaceStation to be treated in this bizarre situation (exact the same things happening over and over again). maybe this in itself is another representation of a "Soulkiller"-like-Event. Because it drains away your life and strength and maybe wish that everything is over and done at some point.
Post automatically merged:

And I also think it comes down to your very own personal philosophy, experience etc (which I believe I said somewhere else, "long time" ago on this matter) xD
 
This is really intriguing questions. Im glad that such a game made by compatriots of Stanislaw Lem, whose influence is noticable. When you first time meet Alt and talking about soulkiller she said to Johnny about transfering engram something like "thats not the same person and you know it" and soulkiller name is given by the reason. Like with teleportation: you literally destroy the body to atoms and than just rebuild it in other place. Is it the same person? Or his "mind" or "soul" left somewhere in darkness without return? Who is this new guy?
 
yeah... but also the 2 monks tell you about the circle of rebirth..
its all a matter your personal point of view
Silverhand tells you he dosnt give a shit... he belives he is still his old self

also, i think depending on the end, Silverhand gets a lot from V
hes nice, dosnt smoke anymore
 
This is really intriguing questions. Im glad that such a game made by compatriots of Stanislaw Lem, whose influence is noticable. When you first time meet Alt and talking about soulkiller she said to Johnny about transfering engram something like "thats not the same person and you know it" and soulkiller name is given by the reason. Like with teleportation: you literally destroy the body to atoms and than just rebuild it in other place. Is it the same person? Or his "mind" or "soul" left somewhere in darkness without return? Who is this new guy?

The conversation goes:
Johnny: "[...] Nothing changes."
Alt: "Everything changes, you know this well." (video)

She never says it's not the same person.
 
yeah... but also the 2 monks tell you about the circle of rebirth..
its all a matter your personal point of view
Silverhand tells you he dosnt give a shit... he belives he is still his old self

also, i think depending on the end, Silverhand gets a lot from V
hes nice, dosnt smoke anymore
I mostly agree, just a little something:
If I remember correctly he says something along these lines:
he doesn't give a shit, I'm still me. (or something, played it in german, so dunno exactly)

This might refer to himself being Johnny as in the old johnny. or as in the "new version"-johnny-me. He is himself, changes included. Hope my point comes across. :)
 
Here is a very good explanation on this matter by u/GVArcian on reddit:
There are two individual V's and three individual Johnny Silverhands in this game.

  • Original V - the person we play for 99% of the game, including all of the post-Mikoshi endings (except the Suicide ending, of course).
  • Engram V - the digital copy of original V we play during the Mikoshi segment (and which appears in Johnny's place as an NPC in the Mikoshi segment of the Rogue ending).
  • Original Johnny - the person we play during Johnny's memories, who died in 2023 when Arasaka soulkilled him.
  • Engram Johnny 1.0 - the digital copy of the original Johnny Silverhand that spent 50 years in Mikoshi before being transferred onto the biochip by Hellman and Yorinobu, and whose memories and personality progressively overwrites original V's memories and personality over the course of the game.
  • Engram Johnny 2.0 - the digital copy created when original V plugs into Mikoshi at the end of the game and has their own memories+personality and Engram Johnny 1.0's memories+personality disentangled by Alt Cunningham.
As Hellman states during the mission we encounter him face to face, the Johnny Silverhand that original V keep hallucinating/communicating with isn't the Original Johnny and it's not Engram Johnny 1.0 either, but Original V's own brain trying to make sense of the engram data from Engram Johnny 1.0 on the biochip writing over Original V's own memories and personality.

In other words, all the interactions between V and Silverhand in the real world takes place entirely inside Original V's brain. They aren't two separate individuals, but one individual with two conflicting personalities and memories as a result of the biochip invasively reconstructing Engram Johnny 1.0's psyche in Original V's brain matter.

When Original V plugs into Mikoshi, they are rendered unconscious (dead?) by Alt's Soulkiller program, which rips the merged memories of Original V and Engram Johnny 1.0 from Original V's mind to create Engram V and Engram Johnny 2.0 inside Mikoshi.

Engram V and Engram Johnny 2.0 (who believes he is Engram Johnny 1.0) then proceed to have a chat inside Mikoshi about whose memories and personality should overwrite all the free real estate that now exists in Original V's unconscious (dead?) brain.

If Engram V goes back into Original V, Engram V ceases to exist as their memories overwrites the memories in Original V's brain. Original V wakes up believing they were in Mikoshi, when in reality they were unconscious (dead?) for the entire time while Engram V was inside Mikoshi and chatting to Engram Johnny 2.0 and Alt.

If Engram Johnny 2.0 goes back into Original V, Engram Johnny 2.0 ceases to exist as his memories overwrites the memories in Original V's brain. Original V wakes up believing they are Johnny Silverhand, specifically Engram Johnny 1.0, when they are neither of the Engram Johnnys.

So, to sum up:

In the Devil, Star and Sun endings, we play as Original V with Engram V's memories and personality. As Original V and Engram V's memories and personality are nearly perfectly identical aside from Engram V's short trip to Mikoshi, it's safe to say that Original V in these endings is still the same V, personality-wise, that we've been playing since the start of the game.

In the Temperance ending, we play as Original V with Engram Johnny 2.0's memories and personality. In this ending, none of Original V's memories and personality remains in Original V's brain. It's still the same individual person from an ontological and biological viewpoint, but Original V's personality is gone because the brain's memory has been completely replaced by the data on the biochip.

So the philosophical conundrum posed by the game's ending is, would you rather live 6 months as yourself, or live a full life with someone else's memories and personality.
What Soulkiller does is to copy a brain's neural patterns (i.e, memories and personality) and translate that into a digital engram. An engram is pure data, it has no consciousness of its own. Furthermore, a personality construct is basically nothing more than a glorified algorithm that uses an engram's data to simulate a living person in cyberspace. This simulation is not alive, nor is it conscious in any real sense.

The Relic in V's head uses engramatic data as a blueprint for how its nanites will physically reconfigure V's brain. Once more, it's not the engram that is conscious, the engram is just information. What happens when V's engram is reinserted into the Relic is that the Relic's nanites revives V's soulkilled brain and immediately begins to restore V's original neural patterns, thus restoring their original memories and personality. This is also true if Johnny's engram is reinserted into the Relic, only it'll be V's original consciousness but with Johnny's memories and personality.
 
Last edited:
I agree, but she uses consciousness/psyche/construct interchangeably a couple of times, which complicates things. Didn't find the exact phrase I was talking about but at 14:04 in this video you can hear Alt and V's perspective on being an engram.

My confusion stems from the first conversation where you go behind the black wall during the Voodoo Boys quest. Alt does say consciousness is restored but not the soul. I guess the game could have used better editing of the script.
Post automatically merged:

Here is a very good explanation on this matter by u/GVArcian on reddit:
There are two individual V's and three individual Johnny Silverhands in this game.

  • Original V - the person we play for 99% of the game, including all of the post-Mikoshi endings (except the Suicide ending, of course).
  • Engram V - the digital copy of original V we play during the Mikoshi segment (and which appears in Johnny's place as an NPC in the Mikoshi segment of the Rogue ending).
  • Original Johnny - the person we play during Johnny's memories, who died in 2023 when Arasaka soulkilled him.
  • Engram Johnny 1.0 - the digital copy of the original Johnny Silverhand that spent 50 years in Mikoshi before being transferred onto the biochip by Hellman and Yorinobu, and whose memories and personality progressively overwrites original V's memories and personality over the course of the game.
  • Engram Johnny 2.0 - the digital copy created when original V plugs into Mikoshi at the end of the game and has their own memories+personality and Engram Johnny 1.0's memories+personality disentangled by Alt Cunningham.
As Hellman states during the mission we encounter him face to face, the Johnny Silverhand that original V keep hallucinating/communicating with isn't the Original Johnny and it's not Engram Johnny 1.0 either, but Original V's own brain trying to make sense of the engram data from Engram Johnny 1.0 on the biochip writing over Original V's own memories and personality.

In other words, all the interactions between V and Silverhand in the real world takes place entirely inside Original V's brain. They aren't two separate individuals, but one individual with two conflicting personalities and memories as a result of the biochip invasively reconstructing Engram Johnny 1.0's psyche in Original V's brain matter.

When Original V plugs into Mikoshi, they are rendered unconscious (dead?) by Alt's Soulkiller program, which rips the merged memories of Original V and Engram Johnny 1.0 from Original V's mind to create Engram V and Engram Johnny 2.0 inside Mikoshi.

Engram V and Engram Johnny 2.0 (who believes he is Engram Johnny 1.0) then proceed to have a chat inside Mikoshi about whose memories and personality should overwrite all the free real estate that now exists in Original V's unconscious (dead?) brain.

If Engram V goes back into Original V, Engram V ceases to exist as their memories overwrites the memories in Original V's brain. Original V wakes up believing they were in Mikoshi, when in reality they were unconscious (dead?) for the entire time while Engram V was inside Mikoshi and chatting to Engram Johnny 2.0 and Alt.

If Engram Johnny 2.0 goes back into Original V, Engram Johnny 2.0 ceases to exist as his memories overwrites the memories in Original V's brain. Original V wakes up believing they are Johnny Silverhand, specifically Engram Johnny 1.0, when they are neither of the Engram Johnnys.

So, to sum up:

In the Devil, Star and Sun endings, we play as Original V with Engram V's memories and personality. As Original V and Engram V's memories and personality are nearly perfectly identical aside from Engram V's short trip to Mikoshi, it's safe to say that Original V in these endings is still the same V, personality-wise, that we've been playing since the start of the game.

In the Temperance ending, we play as Original V with Engram Johnny 2.0's memories and personality. In this ending, none of Original V's memories and personality remains in Original V's brain. It's still the same individual person from an ontological and biological viewpoint, but Original V's personality is gone because the brain's memory has been completely replaced by the data on the biochip.

So the philosophical conundrum posed by the game's ending is, would you rather live 6 months as yourself, or live a full life with someone else's memories and personality.
What Soulkiller does is to copy a brain's neural patterns (i.e, memories and personality) and translate that into a digital engram. An engram is pure data, it has no consciousness of its own. Furthermore, a personality construct is basically nothing more than a glorified algorithm that uses an engram's data to simulate a living person in cyberspace. This simulation is not alive, nor is it conscious in any real sense.

The Relic in V's head uses engramatic data as a blueprint for how its nanites will physically reconfigure V's brain. Once more, it's not the engram that is conscious, the engram is just information. What happens when V's engram is reinserted into the Relic is that the Relic's nanites revives V's soulkilled brain and immediately begins to restore V's original neural patterns, thus restoring their original memories and personality. This is also true if Johnny's engram is reinserted into the Relic, only it'll be V's original consciousness but with Johnny's memories and personality.

I don't understand one part of that explanation.

"If Engram V goes back into Original V, Engram V ceases to exist as their memories overwrites the memories in Original V's brain. Original V wakes up believing they were in Mikoshi, when in reality they were unconscious (dead?) for the entire time while Engram V was inside Mikoshi and chatting to Engram Johnny 2.0 and Alt. "

Now if Engram V overwrites the memories of Original V then how does Engram V cease to exist? Shouldn't it be Original V ceases to exit? Either this was a typo or I would think the memories that are the final ones "Engram V" would mean the body is now Engram V.

The second spoiler is fine except the part about V's engram being reinserted. I don't think V's original neural patterns are restored. If that was the case V wouldn't have 6 months to live.
 
Last edited:
I don't understand one part of that explanation.

"If Engram V goes back into Original V, Engram V ceases to exist as their memories overwrites the memories in Original V's brain. Original V wakes up believing they were in Mikoshi, when in reality they were unconscious (dead?) for the entire time while Engram V was inside Mikoshi and chatting to Engram Johnny 2.0 and Alt. "

Now if Engram V overwrites the memories of Original V then how does Engram V cease to exist? Shouldn't it be Original V ceases to exit? Either this was a typo or I would think the memories that are the final ones "Engram V" would mean the body is now Engram V.
To my understanding, Engram V ceases to exist because Engram V's data, memories, and personality are identical to Original V's. So basically, V wakes up in his/her body without noticing a change, as him/her self. Well, except the fact that you now have memories of you being in Mikoshi on top. Remember, Original V's body is the same body throughout the entire game. It doesn't go anywhere. Having your personality and memories is enough to make Engram V the Original V, at least in my eyes.

The second spoiler is fine except the part about V's engram being reinserted. I don't think V's original neural patterns are restored. If that was the case V wouldn't have 6 months to live.
I guess he meant that it only restores V's personality and memories ("thus restoring their original memories and personality") but worded it in such a way that can make it confusing.
 
Last edited:
There is probably never gonna clear answer to question, much smarter people havent came to certain conclusion, though as topic is it interesting to give it deeper thought
 
btw...
dose anyone know...
why Brandon, the S.B.E.M. machine dose know that we are dying
i could not figure out, how he could now that

i know that he telly you that a lot of people talk to him.. and he did put 1 and 1 together... but still
 
Last edited:
To my understanding, Engram V ceases to exist because Engram V's data, memories, and personality are identical to Original V's. So basically, V wakes up in his/her body without noticing a change, as him/her self. Well, except the fact that you now have memories of you being in Mikoshi on top. Remember, Original V's body is the same body throughout the entire game. It doesn't go anywhere. Having your personality and memories is enough to make Engram V the Original V, at least in my eyes.

Sorry but still can't follow the logic here.

Engram V has original memories plus Mikoshi. Original V only has original memories and does not experience Mikoshi.

The "new" V after getting re-implanted has what Engram V has, original memories plus Mikoshi. So how is it not Engram V?

If I have two cars that are identical in every aspect but i drive one of them 10 more miles and then pick a car I would have picked the car with more miles if in fact the odometer had more miles.

The only other alternative is Orginal V got additional memories from Engram V about Mikoshi. But now that they are identical how do you know this? It's just a guess.

One final point. Didn't Alt state that the body was wiped clean? So where was Original V stored at? The brain was an empty vessel per Alt.
Post automatically merged:

btw...
dose anyone know...
why Brandon, the S.B.E.M. machine dose know that we are dying
i could not figure out, how he could now that

i know that he telly you that a lot of people talk to him.. and he did put 1 and 1 together... but still

I really thought Brandon was a higher AI. But even having a higher tech skill only points out that he wasn't. So the only explanation I can come up with is I was having a relic malfunction during one of my encounters and maybe this is how Brandon knew. It's very thin logic i know but no other explanation.
 
Top Bottom