Make Gwent a card game again!

+
Gwent now is not really a card game. It is now more like strategic RPG like Heroes of Might & Magic with some card mechanics. What are the signs of a real card game?

1. Cards are swift and immediate.

A moment ago card was overturned and in the next moment it is faceturned and shows u some effect, which is immediate and changing board’s situation. All popular card games have this shocking and swift essence. U make u turn and get immediate effect. Simple, shocking and fun. This shock does not give people to sleep. They wait every moment in awareness. Noone knows what will be next, what cards are in the opponent’s hand.
But in a new Gwent almost half of all cards are static, because of charges. They just laying and doing nothing before user directs them. It’s too predictable and boring, this cards are no secret, no shocking. It is more like chess’ static predictable figures. And if u cannot control such a card, u, probably may loose a game, because this cards in most are engines and are too strong when they go in bussiness. They are strong to compensate their slowness. But if u control it, u get more value, that is why Nothern Realms are mostly unplayable faction. Cause it has too much low HP order and charges cards, which are too easy to control by normal immediate and uncontrollable by nothing except pitfall trap cards (lock, destroy or even move to another row).
Most atrifacts are not immediate too and have a cheap contrcards. That’s why atrifacts are not in a meta and will never be except immediate uncontrollable artifacts whoose “artefactness” is even not needed, because they are just laying on the field and doing nothing after use (swords and a land of thousand tales). They could easely be just an immediate special cards.

Charges and orders have another unpleasant effect – they are hard to use, hard to direct. Sometimes u just have no time for this. And it would be even more harder to directs them on mobile devices.

So, as u can see, charges and orders are not good for a card game. They are boring, slow and hard to use. And they are hard to balance. If u do not control such a card, u loose too much. If u do, u gain too much value. That’s why this cards are hard, boring and too risky to play.
Another charges and orders disadvantage is a confusing difference between each of them. Why can I recharge cards with charges, but cannot recharge order cards? They are looking very similar and have the same mechanic. This confuse is bad and it makes another unneded complication to a game. If u have too much complications, ur game become too hard to understand and to play, what is a bad for every game, which are made for fun.

2. In a card game everything is a card.

Card is something unknown, something interesting hidden and which has it’s preset image, completed essense. For example, a tarot cards: here u can see a card of death, a card of fortune, a card of sun, a card of mage. U don’t know what will u pull out of a deck, but when u overturn it u will easyly regonize and understand it. All tarots are understandable and have a completed interesting deep image and meaning. Noone has charges or orders which make it more flexible on the board. This charge flexibility is unneeded complication for cards. It makes an image of card not clean, too garbage. With charge it’s not even a card, it is living flexible figure which is needed to be controlled after use. If some cards in Gwent are normal immediate completed cards, charge and order cards are too comlicated and flexible figures. This is refered to leaders too. Most of them are not cards, cause they have charges. Card is simple: it have one purpose, it is not flexible, it has completed understandable and recognizable image. Charge flexibility is not needed in a card game. It brings too much complication and uncompletness.

Another thing here is that charge is something like chip in some board game. When u use it, it is like u remove one chip from some board’s cell. Chip is not a card, what is breaking card game essense where everithing is a card. Chip is something foreign to cards. Cards are in a deck, and u cannot place chips on them. This feels abnormal. That’s why it is another reason why charges must be deleted. They are looking foreign. They have alien mechanic in relation to normal card’s immediate mechanic.

What I want to say at all: OBT Gwent was very close to normal and interesting card game. Everything was a card, it has leader cards, it had no unneded charges, evering was fast and understandable, shocking and not boring. HC became not fully a card game. It’s look like a board game with chips or like HoM&M series game or even like chess with figures which can be used not just one time and not with just one purpose. I don’t like it. U are mixing two different mechanics: figures and cards which are both laying in a deck. It looks odd and not beautifull. Leave just cards, please. It will be good, fun, clean and understandable which is needed for game popularity. Card games are fun, they are made for fun. Board games are not so fun, because they are too opened, heavy, predictable, too slow for having fun. That's why most popular decks are control decks with immediate funny mechanics (like Nilfgaard's ones), and most useless are decks with charges and orders (like NR ones). Just remove this heavy and slow charges at all and make gwent fun again!
14119f2d.png
 
I disagree that all cards should have "shocking and immediate" effects... not even Hearthstone has that, and that game has tons of random effects. The worst cards in Hearthstone are the ones that do way too much stuff (Dr Boom hero card for example).

While I agree that more cards should have flexible abilities (maybe give them different effects based on melee/ranged), Gwent should be a game where you board grows and a bunch of cards stick... a battle of two armies.

If anything, I feel like the game has too many "shocking" effects where everything gets removed. I'm fine with big damage cards, but I wish they found a way to make the cards stick better to the board, while still allowing for big combos -- but the game more or less does play like this.

I'm not sure what card game you're thinking of, but MTG is the usual game people talk about. In that game you have cards that sit on the board, very few cards have massive game changing effects. Often you and your opponents will set up a board and it becomes a game of small points (that's in current rotation). And Gwent plays like that as well.

Also, Gwent is an electronic game, which allows them to utilize cool mechanics of spawning cards, random effects, etc... I'm not sure what you mean by "make it a card game" ... even Witcher 3 gwent which was way more similar to a physical card game was not that.
Card games are fun, they are made for fun. Board games are not so fun, because they are too opened, heavy, predictable, too slow for having fun.

I really have to disagree with this. Try some of the modern board games (Blood Rage, Star Wars Rebellion, Twilight Imperium).
You're entitled to your opinion, but I really have to disagree with a lot here, which is ok. I'm not saying Gwent is perfect. Again for me, I wish they allowed more cards to be slightly more flexible (even simple cards can have Melee: deal 1 damage, Ranged: +1 power, whereas your golds can have some more interesting niche effects), I think certain effects like weather become too binary -- even though they're making anti-weather not be so impossible to tech into the deck... but ya.
There's my take on it. Since I've returned to Gwent I've been enjoying it more and more.


One thing I can give them major credit for is the meta doesn't get stale. It seems to change as people are always looking to build things to counter the current popular decks.
 
I like some not usual card mechanics like weather or ambush, but still they are not needed in charges. They are immedate too. Weather is a condition card. It lays in a row for some time and causing some effect automaticaly without unneded and burdening control. Ambush is a trigger card. It is triggering by itself too. I even want more ambush-like cards, cause they are very fun and let ur opponent to think. Flexibility in row placement is ok too. I am even for more row card dependence, cause it's not very realistic, when swordsmen are placed in a back row and archers - in a front one. But here we do not need charges too. All is ok, when charges are not involved. Without charges it is a clean card game. But charges are too hard to use, they are confusing and burdening u with additional control. Especially it will be too hard to use them on mobiles, which is a very important platform for popularity.
Also, Gwent is an electronic game, which allows them to utilize cool mechanics of spawning cards, random effects, etc... I'm not sure what you mean by "make it a card game" ... even Witcher 3 gwent which was way more similar to a physical card game was not that.
Still almost noone plays charge or order cards. They are too boring, risky, foreign to normal immediate cards. Noone likes it.
 
Last edited:
I agree, I like condition changes, "Crimson Curse" was a good addition to the game, so I hope they add more conditions that don't just "do damage".
I also like traps, I would like to see more of these (secrets in Hearthstone are fun to play against -- same in Gwent, it's fun to try and predict what your opponent laid out for you -- or maybe call out their bluff).

Row placement you can have swordsman in back row do stuff like (give +1 to another soldier)... perhaps he'd be supporting rather than fighting. Again, wouldn't have to be major, but would be nice to give some options. Of course, not every card would need this, some cards could still be just vanilla point slam.

I think the major problem with charges is that they just get removed too easily, and if you let them spiral out of control, you get massacred. Hopefully they find a nice balance for this (bring back unit armour?)

I'm looking forward to mobile (ANDROID!), I have confidence that they'll find a way to make it intuitive and user friendly... although it'll be much harder than Hearthstone since the board is definitely more complicated.
 
I think the major problem with charges is that they just get removed too easily, and if you let them spiral out of control, you get massacred. Hopefully they find a nice balance for this (bring back unit armour?)
Just look at Saesenthessis: Blaze, and everything becomes clear:

2019-06-02_11-11-28.png

This card has just 5 points on board with 11 provisions cost. It is very low. But it has 5 charges which u can use just for ur next turn. And here we have some cheap blocking cards, which are always working with much more value compare to their provision cost:

2019-06-02_11-20-08.png 2019-06-02_11-21-31.png 2019-06-02_11-22-26.png 2019-06-02_11-22-59.png
If some of this cards will be used for Saesenthessis, it will give its user +5 to value. Saesenthessis player gains in most cases just 5 value for 11p (-6 value), but the lock player gains +3 value to the cost of locking card. So the difference is -9 for Saesenthessis player. It is terrible! So almost noone playes Saesenthessis. Even if they do, they must somehow defend it, but this costs more value and is not so easy. I don't think that Saesenthessis is such a good card to pay so much for it. Yes it can be good for Scorch but it is hard to imagine that opponent has so much cards with more then 5hp to line them up for Scorch by Saesenthessis. In most cases he can have 2 such cards. And The value wouldn't be so big if u look at the Scorch cost.
This immediate locks working such a profitable way almost always. Just because they are IMMEDIATE, uncontrollable and very cheap. U, of course, can make them more expensive or even make them an order cards, but the problem, I think, just in the order of Saesenthessis, which must be removed at all.
Saesenthessis can be destroyed by another control cards and the value difference will be the same. So in most cases playing this card is scary and not fun. And this refers to all order cards. U r always scary even if there are no reasons for it. And this permanent fear is a bad feeling for a card game which is made for having fun.

I don't know why, but HC was made very depressive in almost all cases: dark and dirty design, hard and scary to use order and charge cards, slow animation, primitive mechanics (almost all cards are just buff or deal damage). All was made bad except card's animations and look and provisioning. It is needed to fix all this points to make game fun and popular.
I think OBT Gwent in almost all cases was good except bad balancing and a bad card's look. So, if u join all good sides of OBT and HC, removing the bad ones, u will get a wonderfull game.
 
Last edited:
Charges and orders have another unpleasant effect – they are hard to use, hard to direct. Sometimes u just have no time for this. And it would be even more harder to directs them on mobile devices.

So, as u can see, charges and orders are not good for a card game. They are boring, slow and hard to use. And they are hard to balance. If u do not control such a card, u loose too much. If u do, u gain too much value. That’s why this cards are hard, boring and too risky to play.
Another charges and orders disadvantage is a confusing difference between each of them. Why can I recharge cards with charges, but cannot recharge order cards? They are looking very similar and have the same mechanic. This confuse is bad and it makes another unneded complication to a game. If u have too much complications, ur game become too hard to understand and to play, what is a bad for every game, which are made for fun.

Many players, including me, agree with that point. A great analysis has been done in this thread, giving hints to get rid of charges with minimal changes.

The problem is that now most of us are accustomed with these mechanics, so that we do not even see the problem anymore, but it is striking for any new player. Unfortunately, removing totally the charge mechanic is a massive change, as NR would need a complete overhaul; when we look at the so-called rework of NG last month, it appears that CDPR won't likely go towards this route.

Let us hope that the game will be playable on mobile !
 
I have an idea how to rework Order mechanic so it feels snappy, neat and also give a lot more meaning for the rows, positioning and players interaction.

If you play a unit with Order on meele row, target arrow will automatically apear at the start of your next turn (visually target arrow will apear like old Empera enforces in Nilfgaard spies was triggered for each spying unit).
If you play a unit with Order on ranged row, target arrow will automatically apear at the end of your next turn.
Same for units with Order and cooldown ability (e.g. Pavko Gale) - meele ability triggers and the start of the turn, ranged at the end.

Sequence of triggering multiple Order abilities is the same as for engines - from left to right.

If a unit with Order (that is on board for 1+ turn) receives a charge, target arrow will automatically apear so you have to choose where to click and use charge immediately.


Meele - trigger Order ability on Deploy
Ranged - trigger Order ability at the end of your current turn


Thunderbolt - "2 charges. Whenever you play a unit adjacent to this, boost it by 3."

the list will be supplemented
 
The problem is that now most of us are accustomed with these mechanics, so that we do not even see the problem anymore, but it is striking for any new player. Unfortunately, removing totally the charge mechanic is a massive change, as NR would need a complete overhaul; when we look at the so-called rework of NG last month, it appears that CDPR won't likely go towards this route.

Let us hope that the game will be playable on mobile !
Oh I see the problems with orders and charges and I continue to see them. In my opinion, they should be removed as they create massive balancing problems and have no place in a fast-paced card game and certainly not in one that should be playable on mobile. Removing these mechanics is indeed a massive change, but so was implementing them in HC. As far as I know, players have never asked for these mechanics. CDPR has made some massive changes with HC and have said they don't want to do this anymore as they received much negative feedback from players. However, the negative feedback was not about the amount of changes, but about the quality of the changes. Some massive changes are necessary to undo the bad HC changes.
 
I have an idea how to rework Order mechanic so it feels snappy, neat and also give a lot more meaning for the rows, positioning and players interaction.
It's intersting. I like idea of some artifacts layng on field opened and automatically triggering on some event (as u described for example when some unit is placed near it). It's cool. No need of charges cause all is doing automatically. It is like ambush, which is hidden and triggers on some event. The only difference is that ambush is hidden for opponent. It is the same mechanic actually.
What about order autotriggering - good idea too. But, may be, they are still too complicated and this mechanic are not needed at all. U can just write on the card, for example the same "Saesenthessis: Blaze": "At the begining of your turn distribute one damage to the opponent units five times". If such a deffered mechanic is really needed. But such cards must cost cheaper, because they are too easy to control.
Trully, everything can be done without charges, even orders and charges by themselfes.
Post automatically merged:

What a difference here with orders. Order can be activated in any time of turn and even on another one. But this possibility borns another problem of the current Gwent - people forget that the order is not a turn, that it is an additional turn. It is confusing, especially for novices. They don't understand, why they must do sometnig else if they already used leader or some order. Cards are a turn-based game. Orders are breaking this "turn-basement". It is not beautifull, and for another time it proves that orders and charges are foreign to a card game. With autotriggering and leader cards everything becomes logical and takes its place.
 
Last edited:
I've never been a card game fan. But Gwent was unique and exciting in the beta test. There were fascinating mechanics, the game was addictive, and it was enjoyable to collect cards. The game used to be quite complicated in its mechanics, which could scare away the lazy players but attract the interested ones. And the game's biggest plus was its recognizable universe, beloved by many fans. Now what? Very few people play the game. There are no new players because they have to play with either bots or top players. It's not fair. No matter how many times I notice, all the games deteriorate over time. It seems that only russian solitaire is a kind of eternal game.
 
Last edited:
Although I kinda got used to how GWENT feels at the moment, I must aggree with the OP on this matter. Orders are too confusing, slow, and unfitting for a card game, besides, they have this "in-round" carryover effect that is a nightmare to balance.

GWENT without orders would play much more fluidly, and would be much more satisfying to play.

I have an idea how to rework Order mechanic so it feels snappy, neat and also give a lot more meaning for the rows, positioning and players interaction.

I really like Moors idea of bringing back auto-trigger effects instead of the way Orders work. You still have the mechanics going on, but they are all based on the events of the cards you play, and not on your own whim.

I would add one more idea to what @Moors- wrote, and it would be about the leaders. I don't mind their presence on the board, and it's cool that you can customize them, however the fact that they are not a card, but something completely differente that you can use at anytime and play a card on the same turn is also very confusing, slow, and unfitting. Like what's the point of you having to click the leader to spawn Fruits of Ysgith, why not spawn it automatically at the end of the turn if you have none? To my mind, either make the leaders grant you some passive abilities (like Mahakam Forge +1 Armor to Dwarves, or Nature's Gift Symbiosis effect), or make them behave like an extra card, like it was before HC.

I doubt tho that the devs would take such a drastic approach to the game after what they already did with HC. That saddens me.
 
Top Bottom