Make Weather Tick at the End of the Turn

[Thanatos35]

I think we all agree that there is a problem with weather effect. We all always complain about the three same thing:

1/ Weather effet Vs clear sky gives an unfair advantage to the player that plays the weather effect.
2/ There are more possible weather effects to play than weather removal
3/ Weather spam is boring/dumm to play and to play against

Now what solution to that problem do we have?

1/ Make weather effects damage units at the end of the turn so that you can answer with clear sky without unfairly losing tempo
2/ Limit the number of weather cards in a deck like they do with Gold and Silver cards. Let's say one can have max 3-4 weather cards for example? Not touching the ability of Dagon, Leishen and Caanthir to spawn weather.
3/ You can not spam 2 different weather effect one your opponent's board. e.g. if you played frost on melee row = you can only play frost on the other rows at the same time (no fog or rain).
4/ Make rain able to hit only range and siege row, fog only melee and range and frost anywhere you want. That might not be a real solution but that would require the weather player to actually think a bit, not just netdecking an spamming weather^^

Maybe none of them are THE RIGHT solution but I think it deserves to be tested further by the devs to improve the weather mechanic. All together, the nerf of the gold weather effects is already a GREAT improvement in the game^^

 

[BlueyesOwl]

The change on 2 gold cards was the worst decision.
From the start, weather decks was annoying and had nothing to do with the 2 gold weather cards they nerfed.
If you think about it, weather decks 90% didn't even use those 2 cards.
I agree with the change to "make weather effects dmg units at the end of turn".
Also, I think that would be better if neutral weather cards (along with some other bronzes) be limited.

 

[MrRagdoll]

Problem with weather doing damage at end of opponent turn is that weather clears mostly used have body. Playing any weather card and seeing opponent drop +7 griffin would make weather next to unplayable. I never had trouble playing against weather thanks to huge mobility so I really cant understand why it's treated like worst offender of the game.
Weather forces you to think more about next turn and personally, that makes it more fun for me. Not being able to stack mindlessly EVERYTHING on one row with having only Gigni to fear.

 

[kaalev]

Problem with weather doing damage at end of opponent turn is that weather clears mostly used have body. Playing any weather card and seeing opponent drop +7 griffin would make weather next to unplayable. I never had trouble playing against weather thanks to huge mobility so I really cant understand why it's treated like worst offender of the game.
Weather forces you to think more about next turn and personally, that makes it more fun for me. Not being able to stack mindlessly EVERYTHING on one row with having only Gigni to fear.

You're forgetting that there are units that play weather too.

 

[MrRagdoll]

You're forgetting that there are units that play weather too.

Yeah but you actually need to have the weather in deck when playing that unit (excluding mages and golds).
It would be pretty much the same as needing to have first light in order to weather clear with griffin etc in your deck. Those cards tend to get in the way of first draws and due the blacklist you pretty much need to use those units R1 to not waste mulligans on start of R2.

 

[kaalev]

Yeah but you actually need to have the weather in deck when playing that unit (excluding mages and golds).
It would be pretty much the same as needing to have first light in order to weather clear with griffin etc in your deck. Those cards tend to get in the way of first draws and due the blacklist you pretty much need to use those units R1 to not waste mulligans on start of R2.

You're not wasting any mulligans. Weather summoning cards help you thin your deck. Don't underestimate the power of deck thinning.

Moreover, weather clearing units (apart from mages) are only useful against weather decks. Against decks that run few to no weather cards they will be pretty much dead cards. On the other hand, weather summoning units are always useful because they: 1. bring power to the table, 2. deal damage, 3. thin your deck.

It all comes down to this. What we have now:

Weather card > First Light
Weather summoning unit > Weather clearing unit

Now if weather dealt damage at the end of turn we would have this:

Weather card = First Light
Weather summoning unit = weather clearing unit

Is it too much to ask to have both weather and weather clearing cards equivalent in value?

 

[Nyanko73]

No. Definitely no. As pointed out above, you want to get some value out of a card when you play it. Weather ticking at the end of a turn makes it having basically no value unless the opponent can't react. Take Dol Blathanna trappers, for example, the effect of their fireball trap can be countered before it triggers. But it doesn't matter cause they are still 5 points value. Weather cards aren't worth any until their effect begins.

 

[kaalev]

No. Definitely no. As pointed out above, you want to get some value out of a card when you play it. Weather ticking at the end of a turn makes it having basically no value unless the opponent can't react. Take Dol Blathanna trappers, for example, the effect of their fireball trap can be countered before it triggers. But it doesn't matter cause they are still 5 points value. Weather cards aren't worth any until their effect begins.

Double standards. So you want weather cards to always have value but not so for weather clearing cards? That's some twisted logic right there...

 

[illicitSoul]

What about adding timer to weather cards and making limited use of them? Like frost could remain on board for 3-4 turns.

 

[kaalev]

What about adding timer to weather cards and making limited use of them? Like frost could remain on board for 3-4 turns.

That's a different topic.

 

[shroudb]

Double standards. So you want weather cards to always have value but not so for weather clearing cards? That's some twisted logic right there...

It's not though?
weather clearing bronzes come with 7 power
FL can clear more than 1 card

so they do come with value already.

 

[kaalev]

It's not though?
weather clearing bronzes come with 7 power
FL can clear more than 1 card

so they do come with value already.

They don't. Weather summoning units come with 4-5 points, thin your deck and deals damage. Whereas weather clearing units come at 7 str but apart from clearing weather are useless.

FL can clear more than 1 weather but your units take damage for additional 2 or so turns on affected rows.

You're comparing a Jeep to a Snowmobile and claim that they're the same. Come on.

 

[Nyanko73]

Double standards. So you want weather cards to always have value but not so for weather clearing cards? That's some twisted logic right there...

No it's not double standards. Cause clear weather cards DO HAVE values.

 

[kaalev]

No it's not double standards. Cause clear weather cards DO HAVE values.

What values?

Say you used First Light after taking damage from opponent's weather effect. You brought 0 points on board.

Say you played a 7 str weather clear unit after enemy used his Wild Hunt Hound on 1+ units. Meaning his play was worth 6+ points + deck thinning. At best, you barely match the value in points and more often than not lose a lot more (way you had or were forced to stack all your units on one row).

So please, enlighten me, where do you see the values? Because honestly, don't see em. Weather > weather clears because damage is dealt before you can react to it. Simple as that.

 

[soph912]

No it's not double standards. Cause clear weather cards DO HAVE values.

Only pure weather cards don't have addtional points. Wild Hunt Hounds (which can even be played by Navigator) and Aretuza Adepts have points AND offer deck thinning.

First Light lost it's deck thinning if used with Clear Skies. It can clear multiple rows but that doesn't help if there is only one row affected.

The number of weather cards are practically unlimited but the number of the weather clearing cards Archgriffin, Vrihedd Brigade, Blue Stripes Scout and Standard Bearer are all limited to 3.
Another imbalance in the game...

 

[soph912]

Problem with weather doing damage at end of opponent turn is that weather clears mostly used have body. Playing any weather card and seeing opponent drop +7 griffin would make weather next to unplayable. I never had trouble playing against weather thanks to huge mobility so I really cant understand why it's treated like worst offender of the game.

So because you are a Dwarves player you don't understand it?? Just play another faction and you will...

 

[MrRagdoll]

So because you are a Dwarves player you don't understand it?? Just play another faction and you will...

Do tell me where I said to play dwarves? I play monsters and move around units with drowners or consume with ekkimara on another row. Pop griffin or water hag if there is no more room to move away key units.
Based on your logic I should now understand as I have never used scoia'tael. I don't though so care to assume something I never wrote once more?

 

[shroudb]

They don't. Weather summoning units come with 4-5 points, thin your deck and deals damage. Whereas weather clearing units come at 7 str but apart from clearing weather are useless.

FL can clear more than 1 weather but your units take damage for additional 2 or so turns on affected rows.

You're comparing a Jeep to a Snowmobile and claim that they're the same. Come on.

So, let's say that they summon frost with a hound on a row with 3 units, that's 8 value
you clear with a bronze which is 7 value.

you are just 1 point behind.

and that's frost, if it was rain/fog it would be a net gain of 0.

I'm not saying that weather, especially frost, don't need adjustment, I'm just saying that it's not that bad as some people think.

the main issue with weather remains the spam, and not the individual effects of it.

replacing the weather from mages with another spell could be a start.

ultimately there are too many units that "spawn" weather from outside your deck, that's the real issue.

 

[nightweaver]

My thoughts:

- Bronze Weather clears itself after 3 turns and ticks at the end of the turn.
- Skellige storm hits at the start of the turn. Clears itself after 3 turns.
- White frost functions like 2 regular frosts. (Cleares after 3 turns, hits end of turn.)
- Merrygolds Hailstorm changed: Added weather tag, lasts 3 turns. Halves all non gold unit values on the row until cleared. (eg. old CB weather but as a silver.)
- Gold weather only affects one row but cannot be cleared. (No timer, back to 3 damage value)

The 3 turn timer will still allow weather to have good vallue is played properly, but not completely overshadow other removal spells.

The weather clear units / clear skies aren't changed, mainly because they are only used when weather is dominant as it is now. I think it will balance itself out.

 

[kaalev]

So, let's say that they summon frost with a hound on a row with 3 units, that's 8 value
you clear with a bronze which is 7 value.

you are just 1 point behind.

and that's frost, if it was rain/fog it would be a net gain of 0.

I'm not saying that weather, especially frost, don't need adjustment, I'm just saying that it's not that bad as some people think.

the main issue with weather remains the spam, and not the individual effects of it.

replacing the weather from mages with another spell could be a start.

ultimately there are too many units that "spawn" weather from outside your deck, that's the real issue.

The deck thinning hound provides is worth more than 0 points, imho. Also, you're not seeing the bigger picture. The problem is that weather cards, (especially weather summoning units) will always have value and weather clears even when used for clearing weather lack in value. This topic only offers solution to make them equal in presence of weather, which would be a good start but not a complete solution.

As for weather spam, it is a product of devs making weather agile. In CB you needed 3 different weather cards to cover all rows, now any 3 weather cards can do the same. It's a terrible and immersion breaking design and we'll only get past if if devs dare to take a step back. But I have little faith in that, seeing how there's 0 dialogue happening between devs and players.