Making weather relevant again

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So, there was a discussion on a thread about weather and how irrelevant it has become. From this I thought I would build a weather based gimmick deck just to test out what weather can actually do. It is not as bad as I expected, but it is also not very good.

I first tried it with Nilfgaard, which was somewhat underwhelming. But then I tried it with Skellige, and it was actually quite good.

These are just some thoughts derived from weather decks:
- weather CAN be good
- it could be possible to build a weather based deck
- it could be possible to use weather in other decks
- a single weather card is bad against most or any decks, and give poor value
- multiple weather cards can be good
- weather is probably better for some factions (ST, SK)
- weather is probably worse for some factions (NR, MO, NG, SY?)
- weather is probably more efficient against some factions (NR, SY?)
- weather is probably less efficient against some factions (MO, ST)

So, what are some possible options to make weather relevant again?
1. Be able to run 2x weather effects on the same row (rain+freeze=snow, fog+rain, fog+freeze)

I don't think this would be overpowered in any way, you still get only what you pay for and weather cards are not exactly great value. You still have the row "issue". It just makes it slightly more effective if you can play two at the same row. Especially for non-weather based decks. Weather based decks could actually become a real deck again, not just a gimmick.

The main problem is the faction balance and how weather changes this. Both ST and SK have cards that fit well with weather. For NR it could be a strong factor against them (and order/charge based units). Adding some weather relevant cards to faction X,Y,Z could make this balance finer.

2. Add duration to weather cards and/or nerf Vaedermakar & Avallach & Scepter of Storms

So in that thread where someone mentioned weather, it was mentioned what a poor value it is, potentially 8 for 7. It's also a very slow move tempo wise and can easily brick. So adding one more duration to weather cards, I don't think would necessarily hurt. Adding to this the factor of armor and you get an even worse situation.

3. Have weather ignore shields and armor (like bleeding)

If units are shielded up or using armor, weather could be a decent alternative to taking these units out using weather.

It's not &&&, but and/or, options, possibilities to make weather relevant again. I'm not saying weather should become important or a core mechanic again, I think that's pretty needless. I'm just saying it should at least be relevant, a factor to consider, and a solution to certain things. I think the above suggestions could be possible solutions to do that. I also think it's bad that weather is like it is now, pretty much irrelevant and unusable.

Perhaps there is some middle ground somewhere? Here are some other possible ways to change weather:
- Lower the provisions
- Add a body/value
- Weather cards, artifacts etc
- Always include row effects in every game that can be activated x amount of times of ones choosing
- Leader abilities
- Faction abilities

Anyways, just some thoughts on weather. I think it could be interesting.
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So, I just could not stop thinking about this weather situation and I wanted to add something more here...

There are certain abilities that are better with weather decks or weather situations than others:
- Row movement/control
- Deathblow
- Boost on damage
- Bloodthirst

Anyways, I think the most important thing to change is in some way or another to allow two weather effects run at once in a row and/or combine weather effects to make a "new" weather.. Considering this, combing weather effects can be done in one or more of several ways:
- Outright allow and show two weather effects at once in the same row
- Combine weather effects to make a "new" weather effect (also possibly getting more value than each of the two weather cards alone)
- Allowing weather control cards to combine weather effects (Avallach, Vaedemaker, Scepter of Storms)

Those 3 cards can be nerfed in various ways to make some of the above suggestions possible.

Avallach:
1. Create and play weather feeze, rain, fog AND increase the duration by 1, 4 body like today
or
2. Create and play weather x and combine with existing weather y, 4 body like today

Scepter of Storms:
Same change as Avallach basically, add 1 duration to the one played or combine

The point being is that changing Avallach from a "give immunity" into a 4 body weather playing card (11) made it into such a great card... NOT! Such an underwhelming card, unless you happen to be playing a weather deck, which would be a pretty silly thing to do at this point.

Scepter of Storms, really? You use 8 provisions to choose a weather? Wow.. Not great!

Vaedermaker:
Adding 1 turn on the weather is not really that interesting unless you can combine two weathers in one row. The natural thing for this card to do is to increase/decrease weather by 2 instead of 1. But his name actually means "weather maker", so why not let him combine two existing weathers on the board into 1 and set the duration to the average of the 2 and add 1. But only add 2 to frost, fog or rain.

So...
What is frost + rain? It's snow! More specifically some new cards could be added to the game.

Snow = Snowstorm:
14 provisions.. Damage the lowest unit on the row by 2 & damage 2 random units by 1

Combining rain and frost would naturally become snow. Or it could just be showed as 2 different weather effects on the same row and let the fantasy of the player decide what it is. But Avallach and Scepter could combine to create snowstorm, or it could be shown as two different weather effects on the same row.

It's also possible to add Wind, 7p. Damage 1 random enemy by 2.

Combine wind with rain and you have storm.. Etc etc..
 
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Over the years, many suggestions have been made how to improve weather. I still like the old weather the best, meaning have weather affect both sides and have certain units profit from weather, like the old Wild Hunt and Foglets. Furthermore, every weather type could give a (de)buff, e.g.:

- Fog: units cannot be targeted (by either player).
- Rain: statuses are inactive while in the rain.
- Frost: units' ability are inactive while under frost.

As an alternative, the above can only be applied to (new) gold weather cards, one for each type.
 
Over the years, many suggestions have been made how to improve weather. I still like the old weather the best, meaning have weather affect both sides and have certain units profit from weather, like the old Wild Hunt and Foglets. Furthermore, every weather type could give a (de)buff, e.g.:

- Fog: units cannot be targeted (by either player).
- Rain: statuses are inactive while in the rain.
- Frost: units' ability are inactive while under frost.

As an alternative, the above can only be applied to (new) gold weather cards, one for each type.

I like your post, it's interesting. I don't have much to say beyond that.
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Testing the weather based decks is interesting. I think some players must be scratching their head and wondering how they could get beaten by a weather deck. Anyways, I'm not playing ranked matches (PS4), so I don't know who the opponents are exactly. Some are good or quite good and some beat my weather deck. Anyways, my wins with the weather deck is in no way an indication that it is any good.

It's not very good in my opinion. It is usable. But weather definitely need to improve in some way. Especially since it's more about being able to include weather in a deck, rather than playing a weather based deck.

I think due to this, as things stand, it would be quite a feasible solution to be able to play two weather effects in one row. In fact, it might benefit the game, and be the solution to some rather annoying issues (all kind of swarm decks, including charge/order), the annoying defender situation and many others that I can't think of in just this moment. It could actually provide a real game benefit, and be a real counter-play. On the brighter side of things, armour should not protect against weather, so it could have that added benefit too.
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So, one of the problems with playing weather in a real deck is that the punishment for doing so compared to playing a 7p unit card or whatever is too big. Even if you get 8 points for your 7p weather (which is often not the case), you're still not adding tempo to your own game.

Adding weather is a slow move and comes with potentially great punishment and negligible reward. If you "target" a unit with weather, it is quite easy for the opponent to counter by playing the right cards.

It would be different if you could play two weathers at the same row (at the right time). It's still a slow move, but the reward could at least be potentially very good.

In a "normal deck", in a best case scenario where you play two weather cards (with 5 duration) on the same row, you take out multiple cards (12-16p) and even an engine and "force" the opponent to stack their units on the other row, and you finish with Lacerate (a card many "normal" decks include).
 
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I've been playing only weather based decks for the last days now, and I have to say, it is kind of fun. Never thought "new" Avallach or Vaedermaker would be an auto include in anything ever, but in weather deck they are, obviously. Scepter of Storms too.

Avallach and Scepter of Storms are "THE" cards I want to have in my hand at all times and preferably save for the last round. Haha!
 
Back to this topic a bit again.. Is it unreasonable to increase weather effects by 1?

Actual play with weather shows that it is not. Due to the way weather works, it is a rare thing to get 8 or even 7 points due to weather effects. First of all weather is timed, so you probably have to play it early in the round, perhaps even on an empty row (which has a certain effect but scores nothing). Second thing is that control with weather is really difficult, and depending on the situation, you might need or want to swap one weather for another (technically lost points again). Third, even if there are units on the row, chance is that it or them will die and fail to deliver a "full score" on weather. For fog and frost (especially), it can punish you due to the odd/even numbers factor. So you might end up having lost 2 points, just from taking out units with 1 power on the last row effect, two times.

Combining these factors and others, if you play weather for what it is worth, it's highly unlikely you will get 8 points from it ever, and almost impossible on average. Same goes for 7 points. I would estimate that weather is actually on average a 4-6 point move in itself (without considering other factors).

Which is why I don't think it is unreasonable to have weather row effects last for 5 turns instead of 4.

Add to this, passing a round while weather is still active, and the fact that weather does NOT have an effect if you pass first (like boosting or damage has), and weather becomes quite bad value with 4 turns for 7 provisions. I actually think the provisions are right for weather, it should be 7. The problem is the value and control, I would say average for any weather played is 5, not 6 or 7 and certainly not 8. Ofcourse, if you build your deck around weather you get more value, but the weather effect in itself is slow and poor value.

I think it would not be unreasonable for weather to last for 5 turns instead of 4 turns. Furthermore I think it would not be bad to change Vaedermaker in some way, because 1 additional turn for weather is not really good, but 2 would be good.
 
The reason Avallach was getting used (after the rework) and still gets played occassionally after the nerf is the fact that Avallach is, unlike the bronze weather and Scepter of Storms, actually able to trade up and has an immediate body.

The problem with weather is that being an 8 for 7 (or 8 for 8 in the case of Scepter) is unplayably bad if it takes 4 turns and is not even proactive.

The old Foglet prior to homecoming (4 point bronze that gets pulled from deck/grave (only 1 copy can be pulled at a time) if a fog is spawned on the opponent's side) was fixing the issue, same with Wild Hunt Hound being a 3 point unit that tutors out a Frost from one's deck (although I prefer the Foglet).

Vaedermaker is horrible as it is a 5 for 7 that can extend weather by 1 turn (which in terms of the bronze weather means conditional 2 points), with a bronze weather it can be up to a 7 for 7, which would still be underwhelming if it would be proactive, but having to get the full value out of a bronze weather and then having to wait a 5th turn and rely on the opponent presenting enough targets is unplayable.
If one uses Skellige Storm (the only other choice, apart from making one's Dragon's Dream worse) one gets a worse lacerate, which might be useful with Vaedermaker, but ultimately that is incredibly situational.

Making weather relevant again would rely on giving it at the very least 1 of the following:
- An immediate body
- Noteworthy Point/Provision efficiency based on the effort required to get that
- Consistency
- Worthwhile synergies

If we could reintroduce a kind of foglet (funny how the named ancient foglet from The Witcher 3 is not yet a card) that supports at the very least 1 kind of weather (e.g. a 2 for 7 provisions that pulls itself like the Redanian Ship in Syndicate, whenever a weather/fog appears).
Edit: One could also make Vaedermaker a 1 for 7 that reuses a bronze weather from one's grave or a 2 for 8 that can pull a weather from one's deck (a.k.a. a gremist clone) would also help a lot, but adding both the foglet and change to Vaedermaker would make weather worth using (and should be balanced).

Edit: For clarification, time dependent cards like weather (slow => no control, only damage => cannot create points on one's side) only work if they can cancel the efficiency of an opponent's play, giving it a body allows it to avoid having to drastically improve its efficiency as it can also advance one's own board.
 
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The reason Avallach was getting used (after the rework) and still gets played occassionally after the nerf is the fact that Avallach is, unlike the bronze weather and Scepter of Storms, actually able to trade up and has an immediate body.

The problem with weather is that being an 8 for 7 (or 8 for 8 in the case of Scepter) is unplayably bad if it takes 4 turns and is not even proactive.

Yeah, the good thing is to be able to choose the weather type, depending on the situation and your needs. 8 for 7 is most of the time unrealistic. Placing weather late in the round when there is a "guaranteed" 8 for 7 is not usually a good idea due to it taking such a long time.

Vaedermaker is horrible

Yes, quite. When I play him I normally have 1 weather on each row, and can extend both. But timing wise it is very awkward and the value is still not good. Overall with 2 weathers and Vaedermaker the payoff is underwhelming, and it's not really likely to pay off in terms of points for provisions even. The payoff is more in terms of destroying plays and engines and synergy and what not, but still, that's not suppose to be counted in the provisions. 21 provisions, and you could realistically do around 13-18 damage in total of a possible of 20, plus a 5 body for a grand total of 23 under quite ideal circumstances.

If one uses Skellige Storm

Skellige seems to be the best faction to play weather with, and Skellige storm with Vaedermaker is not a bad move if you play some kind of weather deck (which in itself is not s sound choice). But the sequencing of playing Skellige storm and Vaedermaker is usually quite awkward in practice.

Making weather relevant again would rely on giving it at the very least 1 of the following:
- An immediate body
- Noteworthy Point/Provision efficiency based on the effort required to get that
- Consistency
- Worthwhile synergies

This is important. The most important thing is for weather to be worth it. In a normal deck it's not really worth it, the payoff is too bad. The way you have to play weather early in the round, forces you to take point losses on weather, and so make it inconsistent.

The biggest synergy with weather that I could find are greatsword/dagur preferably with rain. But also somewhat (but awkward) deathblow abilities, most likely in a Nilfgaard deck.

If weather lasted for 5 turns instead of 4 and could be combined (2 on 1 row), it could become worthwhile in normal decks.
 
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