Mantle - new open API by AMD and DICE

[ballowers100]

40 new developers joined to Mantle SDK beta program.

Who are these 40 video game developers? Can you link the website that lists them please?

I looked at Steam's Hardware Survey yesterday Nvidia's grew from 51. something to 52.15% from while AMD's dropped to 30% when it was 33% or 32%. In My Opinion (IMO) I feel like AMD is losing ground so many people are switching to Nvidia from what I read on neogaf.com and many other websites comments,

I still have a feeling Mantle is not good to adopt and that DirectX and OpenGL is still gonna be used more than Mantle and Mantle is only locked to AMD's Graphics Core Next (GCN) architecture.

 

[GuyNwah]

Who are these 40 video game developers? Can you link the website that lists them please?

It is a private beta program. AMD has not and should not release the names of the participants. You have to apply and be invited in to get that information. You probably have to sign a nondisclosure agreement in order to do so, which means you would probably get kicked out and sued if you released information. You may or may not think this is a good thing, but it is the way professionals do programs like this.

 

[Aver]

Who are these 40 video game developers? Can you link the website that lists them please?

I looked at Steam's Hardware Survey yesterday Nvidia's grew from 51. something to 52.15% from while AMD's dropped to 30% when it was 33% or 32%. In My Opinion (IMO) I feel like AMD is losing ground so many people are switching to Nvidia from what I read on neogaf.com and many other websites comments,

I still have a feeling Mantle is not good to adopt and that DirectX and OpenGL is still gonna be used more than Mantle and Mantle is only locked to AMD's Graphics Core Next (GCN) architecture.

Actually both Nvidia and AMD lost their share according to Steam Survey. Nvidia dropped from 53,13% to 52,15%. Also if I would read steam survey like you then I would react like "Omg, Intel is growing so fast. It is crushing Nvidia and AMD with his superior gaming video cards". But if you check AMD's recent financial report then you will find out that sales of their GPUs actually increased.

 

[GuyNwah]

They were in serious danger of being no longer a going concern, not because the market doesn't like their products (though their CPU business is still a disaster), but because they had massive debts coming due in 2015. They mitigated some of that, but their debt is still rated B and CCC, which means people who take financials seriously believe there is still a more than 20% risk of them defaulting in a year.

Either their ability to negotiate the prices they need for their chips is lacking, or the games they have been playing with their foundries have gone badly, because their 2013 gross margin of 25% sucks hind teat in a business where you need better than 50%. 35% in first quarter 2014 is better but not good enough.

You can have the most wonderful products in the market, but if your company can't sell them for what they're worth and doesn't make enough to pay its debts on time, you're just as bad off as if you made crap.

 

[shawn_kh]

You know I really do not get how AMD manages to produce an 8 core CPU running at 4.70 GHz (FX-9590), and still get outperformed by intel's i7 4770K which is a quad core running at 3.50 GHz and way cheaper. I mean it is not possible logically, but AMD some how doe it.

 

[GuyNwah]

You know I really do not get how AMD manages to produce an 8 core CPU running at 4.70 GHz (FX-9590), and still get outperformed by intel's i7 4770K which is a quad core running at 3.50 GHz and way cheaper. I mean it is not possible logically, but AMD some how doe it.

I could give lots of reasons. A big one is AMD is still at 32nm process. Intel has been using 22nm and is moving to 14nm (it's not easy producing 14nm, even for Intel). This hits you square in the die size, the number of transistors you can pack in, and the power and cooling requirements.
Piledriver: 1.6 billion transistors, 319 mm2 die size, 125W at 4.1-4.2 GHz (8350), 220W at 4.8-5.0 GHz (9590).
Haswell: 1.4 to 1.6 billion transistors, including the GPU, 177mm2 die size, 84W at 3.5-3.6 GHz (4770K).

But that's not the full explanation. You can see from those numbers that Intel is doing more with a lot fewer transistors (many of those transistors on Haswell are in the useless GPU) at a much lower clock speed.

You can find many other technical explanations. The 8 Piledriver cores are not independent, and on loads not optimized for their architecture, they behave like 4-core CPUs. Haswell's 8 bogocores can perform better than 4 cores on ordinary loads, because their hyperthread scheduler is pretty good at scheduling work onto idle resources. Piledriver has a bigger L2 cache, but its performance is dreadful. Haswell can do an L2 cache read in one cycle. Piledriver takes 20 cycles.

But I think the biggest reason is creativity. Intel has Ron Friedman, and AMD, well, doesn't. Ron Friedman is legendary in the CPU business. He led the coup by Intel Israel that took over the CPU division and replaced the Pentium 4 with the Pentium M and then the Core series. He became head of the CPU division and held that position for many years; Intel Israel developed the Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge CPUs. Since then, he's been kicked upstairs and is Intel's general manager for intellectual property, according to a recent org chart.

One man leading one group of like-minded engineers, with a commitment to making Moore's Law a reality and a work ethic like Michael Jordan's, really can make a difference. A huge, company-saving, market-dominating difference.

 

[shawn_kh]

I could give lots of reasons. A big one is AMD is still at 32nm process. Intel has been using 22nm and is moving to 14nm (it's not easy producing 14nm, even for Intel). This hits you square in the die size, the number of transistors you can pack in, and the power and cooling requirements.
Piledriver: 1.6 billion transistors, 319 mm2 die size, 125W at 4.1-4.2 GHz (8350), 220W at 4.8-5.0 GHz (9590).
Haswell: 1.4 to 1.6 billion transistors, including the GPU, 177mm2 die size, 84W at 3.5-3.6 GHz (4770K).

But that's not the full explanation. You can see from those numbers that Intel is doing more with a lot fewer transistors (many of those transistors on Haswell are in the useless GPU) at a much lower clock speed.

You can find many other technical explanations. The 8 Piledriver cores are not independent, and on loads not optimized for their architecture, they behave like 4-core CPUs. Haswell's 8 bogocores can perform better than 4 cores on ordinary loads, because their hyperthread scheduler is pretty good at scheduling work onto idle resources. Piledriver has a bigger L2 cache, but its performance is dreadful. Haswell can do an L2 cache read in one cycle. Piledriver takes 20 cycles.

But I think the biggest reason is creativity. Intel has Ron Friedman, and AMD, well, doesn't. Ron Friedman is legendary in the CPU business. He led the coup by Intel Israel that took over the CPU division and replaced the Pentium 4 with the Pentium M and then the Core series. He became head of the CPU division and held that position for many years; Intel Israel developed the Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge CPUs. Since then, he's been kicked upstairs and is Intel's general manager for intellectual property, according to a recent org chart.

One man leading one group of like-minded engineers, with a commitment to making Moore's Law a reality and a work ethic like Michael Jordan's, really can make a difference. A huge, company-saving, market-dominating difference.

you are really knowledgeable.
Thank you for the explanation.

 

[CostinRaz]

Actually both Nvidia and AMD lost their share according to Steam Survey. Nvidia dropped from 53,13% to 52,15%

Sure, but here's the catch, you've got a 2%-3% drop vs a 1% drop and you've got Intel controlling about 18% of the market share at the moment and their share will only grow as their integrated GPUs become more powerful and powerful.

At the same time you've got AMD in an uncertain financial situation that could destroy them, couple that with that Nvidia's has been doing with PhysX and Geforce Experience and I'd say AMD is in deep shit.

Hell Shadowplay in of itself is going to be a huge draw to people, especially since it is by far the best recording program when it comes to performance hit: It's also easy to use and set up and it's free. AMD is still working on their own version but until it's released dedicated youtubers are going to embrace Nvidia more and more ( not that they haven't already since most of the biggest youtube partners already use Nvidia cards, and yes it matters since those people are going to promote Nvidia ).


Mantle was the only thing they might have had going for them but in announcing mantle they provoked Microsoft and the in battle that's been going on AMD is like the small kid being picked on the bully Nvidia along with Nvidia's rival/friend Intel and what does the small kid do to try and deal with the bullies? He goes and punches and the director ( Microsoft ) in the face.

For gamers it's going to be good because of DX12, but for AMD? It's a dumb move.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Microsoft isn't provoked by AMD. The main competition for DirectX isn't Mantle, but OpenGL. And here all vendors are essentially undermining MS grip on the market, since all of them are working on improving OpenGL support.

 

[CostinRaz]

Improved OpenGL support wasn't what led to Microsoft starting development on DX12, I know you keep spouting your Linux fanboy nonsense but stick with facts please.

Mantle was openly embraced by quite a lot of game developers, including AAA developers, whereas OpenGL just doesn't have that kind of support. That's why Microsoft went in overdrive.

 

[GuyNwah]

I don't think Intel's particularly interested in taking market share from discrete GPUs. They're not making a play in the desktop market at all. Almost everything they've been doing recently in consumer lines (Iris Pro, Broadwell) is for the mobile market.

But what they're doing still hits AMD right in their business segment. AMD has been positioning Kabini against Bay Trail. They're going to get outcompeted by Bay Trail, and they have nothing at all to compete against Broadwell. Even if they keep the graphics capability of the APUs up, Costin is right, Intel will catch up and pass them.

AMD has two viable product lines: discrete GPUs and console APUs. Intel has them shadowed or beaten everywhere else.

 

[CostinRaz]

But what they're doing still hits AMD right in their business segment.

Exactly. AMD's has survived in large part due it's prices after it's stock collapse, especially on lower end GPUs. If Intel were to release a far superior Integrated GPU in a say a couple of years that could compete with a medium end GPU then that's going to destroy AMD ( if AMD even survives for that long ). Nvidia would suffer as well, but their financial situation is in a far better shape then AMD.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

@Costin: In general, I got a feeling that you don't really understand what companies like MS plan and do. Mantle was not embraced by many developers. Few who did it, tried it as an experiment. Lack of support for Mantle not only on different OSes, but on different GPUs (including mobile ones), makes it not interesting for the vast majority of developers. And it will remain that way until AMD will get to the point of convincing other GPU vendors that hardware support for it is a good thing.

The fact that you don't understand what real competition for DirectX is shows that you don't understand where things are heading. And they are heading to OpenGL eating away at DirectX usage. Mantle isn't even in the picture. At least yet. Real threat for MS is not AMD now, but Valve who develop Vogl and in general work on making OpenGL development more accessible to wider range of developers. That, and not Mantle scared MS to the point that they even opened some of their gaming development tools.

 

[shawn_kh]

OpenGL can never even come close to competing with DirectX, and this is a fact.
As far as AMD CPUs go, because of poor programming and optimization AMD's FX 9590 with 8 cores and clock speed of 4.70 GHz gets outperformed in gaming by intel's i7 4770k which is a quad core running at 3.50 GHz. Funny thing is that both consoles run on AMD processors, and one would think most games should be better optimized to run on AMD processors.
Nvidia GPUs have better driver support plus they can run PhysX, and more and more AAA games such as Witcher 3, Batman Arkham series, Assassin's Creed Black Flag are using PhysX and the list is growing by the day. In addition to those Nvidia stated that most of their GPUs such as 780 and 780 ti are DirectX 12 ready, and their new driver increased the performance of all of their GPUs in some cases by 10-15 FPS. TXAA is also Nvidia exclusive, and it does wonders.
The only thing AMD has going for it are the consoles, but in PC gaming they are doing beyond terrible.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

OpenGL can never even come close to competing with DirectX, and this is a fact.

It's not a fact, it's a complete nonsense. DirectX can't compete with OpenGL in the long run simply because it's not available anywhere outside MS systems. Technically they are comparable, i.e. DX doesn't have any revolutionary technical advantages over OpenGL. It's only used more because Windows is still on majority of desktops, and because Xbox has a big market. It's completely absent on the mobile scene as well as outside Windows. So far MS didn't show any indication of trying to make it an ubiquitous API.

DX also had an edge because of better and easier to use developer tools. And that's what I wrote above - it's about to change and MS will get a strong push from competition now. Valve made it their goal to restore OpenGL into preferred API for the majority of gaming development, and I see no reason why they can't succceed doing that. Once they compensate any existing tools advantages of DX, overall benefits of OpenGL (such as wide platforms availability, including Windows itself) will outweigh anything that DX could offer.

As for Mantle, if AMD really wants to see it as a better successor for OpenGL they need to reach the same level of ubiquity. I doubt that could happen soon, unless Nvidia and Intel will join the effort (as well as others like Qualcomm and etc.).

 

[CostinRaz]

It's not a fact, it's a complete nonsense.

What you're spouting is complete nonsense.

DirectX can't compete with OpenGL in the long run simply because it's not available anywhere outside MS systems.

Those systems are not relevant for gaming. What have you Mac? Linux, laughable. A small installed userbase that major AAA developers don't give two shits about, the moment those Operating Systems will matter is when you will have Call of Duty, Battlefield and the like on them, not before. The only games you see on those platforms are games made by smaller studios which are doing it as a marketing tool to get headlines and get people talking about it, even Witcher 2. Gog in itself is doing it for the same reason. ( and I bet that has a lot more to do with the fact kickstarter games will have Linux versions ).

Steam Box? So somehow OpenGL matters because Linux fanboys like yourselves have decided that it will sell? It has a large chance of flopping, and only IF it get's a large enough user base to warrant the attention of AAA developers. Finally Steam Box will only have an impact on OpenGL assuming that people keep Steam OS, which they can ditch and just install windows instead since people want to play their older games on their new machine and will stick with what works.

DX also had an edge because of better and easier to use developer tools. And that's what I wrote above - it's about to change and MS will get a strong push from competition now.

It also not going to change anytime soon. Most developers are far more familiar with DirectX then they are with OpenGL, it would take years for them to be able to reach the same kind of performance as they have with DirectX and also speed of programming, in a game developer world were AAA devs work on tight deadlines to release AAA games then what kind of company would bother for a market that to them is irrelevant?

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Those systems are not relevant for gaming

Really, said who? Someone who isn't a developer or engineer? Or companies which actually work in the industry of systems design? They are so not relevant, that someone must be pretty clueless in Google to consider that Android can be used for gaming, or someone must smoke too much stuff in Valve to consider making a gaming console with Linux. My guess is it's someone else who is clueless really, not them. It's a good thing to make judgements in something you actually know in order not to end up with ridiculously false statements.

It also not going to change anytime soon. Most developers are far more familiar with DirectX then they are with OpenGL

It's already changing, and fast. Developers use APIs not because they are MS fans, but because it pays off for them. When DX won't be paying off the same way OpenGL will, DX will quickly fall behind. And Valve is working on that for quite a while already. You may be oblivious to this fact, but MS surely aren't. They know it's a threat for them, and they are trying to figure out how to compete further in order not to become irrelevant in the future. But I doubt they can do anything about it, except opening up DX completely to pose it as OpenGL alternative with cross platform availability.

 

[CostinRaz]

Really, said who? Someone who isn't a developer or engineer? Or companies which actually work in the industry of systems design?

Someone who doesn't have an undying love for an OS and a deep seated hatred for Microsoft.

Really, said who? Someone who isn't a developer or engineer? Or companies which actually work in the industry of systems design? They are so not relevant, that someone must be pretty clueless in Google to consider that Android can be used for gaming, or someone must smoke too much stuff in Valve to consider making a gaming console with Linux. My guess is it's someone else who is clueless really, not them. It's a good thing to make judgements in something you actually know in order not to end up with ridiculously false statements.

Android Gaming, yes the cesspool of copy cat games trying to milk as much money as they can, so impressive. Do you even have an idea of what exactly is there with regards to Android gaming? Shovel Ware, that's what.

As for Valve, it's a business strategy whereby they are hoping their monopoly on PC gaming will allow them to create a new market from nothing for Steam Box, they are not trying to improve the current market on Linux or Mac OS. They are doing this out of a fear that their dominance is being challenged due to Origin, GoG and the Windows store. Once Microsoft get's their shit together with regards to the UI and convinces developers to put their products there then Steam will start to lose relevance: Why use a third party software when you can just play games directly through Winodws?

Neither Linux or Mac are currently relevant gaming platforms in the eyes of big publishers/developers. Cry all you want about it, but if they considered them they would have their latest games on them.

It's already changing, and fast.

Oh are we now seeing a large number of Open GL AAA games? No we are not. It's been less then two years since developers have started taking DX11 seriously for instance. When was that released? Oh yeah 2009.

Microsoft is going to hit back if and when OpenGL becomes a relevant threat to them, assuming they even care if it's a threat seeing as they do support OpenGL on Windows and when it comes to improvements to an API a company like Microsoft will be able to bring vast improvements to DirectX sooner then what OpenGL will offer.

EDIT: OpenGL is not Linux.

 

[shawn_kh]

@Gilrond
Dream on friend.
Anything is possible, the question is what are the chances of something happening based on circumstances; and things are not looking good for OpenGL or AMD's Mantle. I'd invest on a Windows PC bearing a Geforce GPU and an Intel CPU, if I was building a gaming PC.

And lastly tone it down guys, it's just a friendly discussion and there is no need to insult each other

 

[dragonbird]

OK, stand down everyone.
Discuss without personal attacks, accusations of fanboyism or accusations at those who don't share your belief system.

You may all want to take a break before making further posts. Some are about to get deleted, some edited.