Maybe it's all Red Engine's fault?

[DarkTl]

Yes, I think this comes most likely close to the point. AI needs CPU power. I would not be surprised, when the AI features will come with the multiplayer. Then the AI could be processed by the server.

Reminds me the story with Simcity, where EA claimed that it must be always online because NPCs AI is too complex and needs to be handled by servers. And some time later enthusiasts managed to launch the game in offline mode just fine, with zero changes in NPC behavior

I suggest you to play the newest Hitman games. Then you'll know what modern CPUs can do with AI when good programmers are involved, even if there are hundreds of NPCs.

 

[Ofdimaelr]

Funny how you are making all those excuses meanwhile those old gen next gen whatever console can play GTA 5, RDR2 with excellent AI pretty fine..

 

[Draconifors]

One post deleted. That personal skirmish has no place in a public thread.

 

[DuncanOConner]

Funny how you are making all those excuses meanwhile those old gen next gen whatever console can play GTA 5, RDR2 with excellent AI pretty fine..

I just counted people in mid town, and I think (not easy to do) I had 29 people on one screen ... and the streets were full around every corner. None of your listed games has this. Think of any person as own thread of AI, an own data stream. More people means more data streams ... so the number plays a role.

But I don't know the engine, I can't tell how good or bad it is ... I just know, that things are not as easy as forum guys (including me) like to pretend.

Edit: And just to say "because they are amateurs etc. etc. " is the typical uneducated oversimplification we see these days with everything.


Regards

 

[Ofdimaelr]

I just counted people in mid town, and I think (not easy to do) I had 29 people on one screen ... and the streets were full around every corner. None of your listed games has this. Think of any person as own thread of AI, an own data stream. More people means more data streams ... so the number plays a role.

But I don't know the engine, I can't tell how good or bad it is ... I just know, that things are not as easy as forum guys (including me) like to pretend.

Edit: And just to say "because they are amateurs etc. etc. " is the typical uneducated oversimplification we see these days with everything.


Regards

GTA has plenty of civilian walking down the street, depends of where you are + they are driving decently and will avoid thing on the road or react if you are driving cops car with light on.

Does Cyberpunk really need to reinvent the wheel and have really good civilian AI better than GTA ?
I don't think so.

 

[Trykz]

Does Cyberpunk really need to reinvent the wheel and have really good civilian AI better than GTA ?

Well..... yes. They kinda do. Especially when that exact phrase (reinvent the wheel) is what they were claiming they were doing for 8 years. Bringing us a "next gen" game. Which this clearly is not.

As more and more players finish the game, it's becoming more apparent that this game falls well short of that.

The whole development plan for this game was obviously ass backwards. Instead of building a world around a story, they shoe-horned, plastered, and stapled a story onto a world. And it shows. Glaringly.

 

[Armaholicer]

Although I'm a huge fan of Keanu I'm pretty sure his wish to be more included in the game as firstly planned had a huge negative impact on the development.

 

[DarkTl]

Although I'm a huge fan of Keanu I'm pretty sure his wish to be more included in the game as firstly planned had a huge negative impact on the development.

Are you sure it was his wish, and not developerts attempts to hide lack of content behind his presence?

 

[GrimReaper801]

Well..... yes. They kinda do. Especially when that exact phrase (reinvent the wheel) is what they were claiming they were doing for 8 years. Bringing us a "next gen" game. Which this clearly is not.

As more and more players finish the game, it's becoming more apparent that this game falls well short of that.

The whole development plan for this game was obviously ass backwards. Instead of building a world around a story, they shoe-horned, plastered, and stapled a story onto a world. And it shows. Glaringly.

Well there is the problem of - what is next gen?

Does every single system have to be next gen? Do only a set number of them do? Can the sum of systems seen before individually but never together be considered next gen?

It's not an easy question to answer and highly subjective.

Post automatically merged: Jan 10, 2021

Although I'm a huge fan of Keanu I'm pretty sure his wish to be more included in the game as firstly planned had a huge negative impact on the development.

If it did, it's only because CDPR agreed to do it. Ultimately, their choice.

He couldn't force them and it doesn't fit him at all even if he could. The guy is always described as wholesome and his actions have proven it many times over.

 

[Armaholicer]

If it did, it's only because CDPR agreed to do it. Ultimately, their choice.

You're absolutly right. They could've denied this but the chance to have an actor like KR in the game was maybe a bit too much for CDPR to say "no" to.

 

[GrimReaper801]

You're absolutly right. They could've denied this but the chance to have an actor like KR in the game was maybe a bit too much for CDPR to say "no" to.

Well, they approached him first.

What you said was that he wanted to be included more. Which, as far as I know is an unconfirmed rumor that after recording a bit of Johnny he wanted to do more. By that point we already knew he was in-game and whether they refused or agreed to him doing more would've had no impact on the hype train.

I doubt they were so in awe of him or his performance as Johnny that they couldn't say no.

 

[amikae]

Well, they approached him first.

What you said was that he wanted to be included more. Which, as far as I know is an unconfirmed rumor that after recording a bit of Johnny he wanted to do more. By that point we already knew he was in-game and whether they refused or agreed to him doing more would've had no impact on the hype train.

I doubt they were so in awe of him or his performance as Johnny that they couldn't say no.

This has never even been confirmed as true at all. Keanu is the least of the games problems.

 

[GrimReaper801]

This has never even been confirmed as true at all. Keanu is the least of the games problems.

That's exactly what I said...

I'm confused as to why you're quoting me.

 

[HOPA83]

I don't know but it would be good if they gave some news ... because since December 23 there is nothing ...

 

[amikae]

That's exactly what I said...

I'm confused as to why you're quoting me.

Really sorry, quoted the wrong message.

 

[Etrnlhaze]

two words ..... WARNER BROTHERS !!!!!!!

 

[xOmaeka]

After Witcher 3 came out CDPR lost a massive chunk of their employees due to crunch and low pay and replaced them with a mostly new team of amateurs. The quality between Witcher 3 & Cyberpunk is different because they have different people working on the game and a far more unrealistic scope than Witcher 3.

It's not a company that makes a good game, it's the people who work on it and if you have different people working on a game you can expect a different outcome. The same has happened with Bioware. well known for mass effect 1 & 2 and Dragon Age Origins. Then their later games were not as well received with many people now calling bioware garbage. This is what happens when you lose your main team.

Did you not play TW3 on release? It wasn't as broken on the technical side as 2077 but it was nowhere near the version of TW3 we have now. 2077 is leagues ahead of TW3 in terms of gameplay design, and has a similar level of quality with the story telling and quest structure, albeit with less quests overall. Infact I would say the story is better, perhaps it's down to V being more personal, but 2077 hit me harder than any ending in TW3. Even the worst ending was much less painful than the nomad ending.

To just chalk it up to losing all their 'good' developers and stating the people who work there now are shit/amateur is obscene. The game we have underneath all of the jank and technical issues stands besides TW3 and absolutely destroys any other AAA RPG since DA: Origins or Mass Effect 2. AAA RPGs haven't been RPGs for a good while now.

The state of release has definitely skewed the perspectives of a lot of fans. Once 2077 is polished up, it will be up to the level of quality with far superior gameplay design but less overall content. I was worried before 2077 even released that TW3 being so overrated (but still great) would harm the game, and it did. It was a perfect storm in combination with the poor technical state of the product. Had it released in a better state, majority of the people claiming TW3 was better, would not be doing so imo.

I've always hated that CDPR released games in such poor states and relied on patches though. Did you experience the first Witcher on release? It was much worse than 2077. Doesn't excuse the PS4/XB1 versions at all, but 2077 on PC is in a better release state than any of their previous releases.

EDIT: I would actually say TW2 release version was their best actually.

 

[amikae]

The game we have underneath all of the jank and technical issues stands besides TW3 and absolutely destroys any other AAA RPG since DA: Origins or Mass Effect 2. AAA RPGs haven't been RPGs for a good while now.

Yup! CDPR as RPG story tellers are absolutely above any other AAA RPG studio currently producing games. The game is still great despite all it's shortcomings and missing content, I can only imagine how incredible it will be 2 years down the line.

 

[Mentos3]

Did you not play TW3 on release? It wasn't as broken on the technical side as 2077 but it was nowhere near the version of TW3 we have now. 2077 is leagues ahead of TW3 in terms of gameplay design, and has a similar level of quality with the story telling and quest structure, albeit with less quests overall. Infact I would say the story is better, perhaps it's down to V being more personal, but 2077 hit me harder than any ending in TW3. Even the worst ending was much less painful than the nomad ending.

To just chalk it up to losing all their 'good' developers and stating the people who work there now are shit/amateur is obscene. The game we have underneath all of the jank and technical issues stands besides TW3 and absolutely destroys any other AAA RPG since DA: Origins or Mass Effect 2. AAA RPGs haven't been RPGs for a good while now.

The state of release has definitely skewed the perspectives of a lot of fans. Once 2077 is polished up, it will be up to the level of quality with far superior gameplay design but less overall content. I was worried before 2077 even released that TW3 being so overrated (but still great) would harm the game, and it did. It was a perfect storm in combination with the poor technical state of the product. Had it released in a better state, majority of the people claiming TW3 was better, would not be doing so imo.

I've always hated that CDPR released games in such poor states and relied on patches though. Did you experience the first Witcher on release? It was much worse than 2077. Doesn't excuse the PS4/XB1 versions at all, but 2077 on PC is in a better release state than any of their previous releases.

EDIT: I would actually say TW2 release version was their best actually.

...I don't know if W1/W2 generated that much profit to invest in development (not marketing *cough*), like W3 did it for CP2077. It should've been better.

W1&2: By March 2014, The Witcher series has sold 7 million copies of both games.

W3: Before its release, over 1.5 million people pre-ordered the game. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt debuted atop the UK software sales chart in its first week, when it earned 600 percent more than predecessor The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings. [...] Four million copies of the game were sold in its first two weeks of release. [...] By June 2015, over 690,000 players had activated the game through GOG Galaxy. The game sold over six million copies in the next six weeks, [...] By the end of 2017, the series as a whole had sold over 33 (!!!) million.

Wiki.

Then came Cyberpunk2077.
Thanks to W3 & DLCs they had much, much (...much) more money, reputation and experience to make CP2077 shiny. If the only thing they learned by growing from a Indie to a Triple A-Studio is to disappoint lots, lots (...lots) of their customers....

....eh, I wanted to stay relaxed....everything is fine...

tl;dr: I don't think the comparison is uhm, durable?

 

[xOmaeka]

...I don't know if W1/W2 generated that much profit to invest in development (not marketing *cough*), like W3 did it for CP2077. It should've been better.

W1&2: By March 2014, The Witcher series has sold 7 million copies of both games.

W3: Before its release, over 1.5 million people pre-ordered the game. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt debuted atop the UK software sales chart in its first week, when it earned 600 percent more than predecessor The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings. [...] Four million copies of the game were sold in its first two weeks of release. [...] By June 2015, over 690,000 players had activated the game through GOG Galaxy. The game sold over six million copies in the next six weeks, [...] By the end of 2017, the series as a whole had sold over 33 (!!!) million.

Wiki.

Then came Cyberpunk2077.
Thanks to W3 & DLCs they had much, much (...much) more money, reputation and experience to make CP2077 shiny. If the only thing they learned by growing from a Indie to a Triple A-Studio is to disappoint lots, lots (...lots) of their customers....

....eh, I wanted to stay relaxed....everything is fine...

tl;dr: I don't think the comparison is uhm, durable?

I'll agree that 2077 had the most put into it and the least room for excuses of all their games, but bugginess on release is not a budget issue, it's down to time. Developers are aware of a lot of the bugs a game has by the time it's released, because finding them is only 10% of the battle. It's buggy because despite the 320 million budget, you can't buy time, yet they couldn't delay it again because of the hype CDPR built and how long people had their preorders. None of that is on the developers.

The stance I've seen a few people take that the developers are lazy and untalented is my issue, the studio as a whole tried to do too much, and those in charge didn't warrant them enough time. 5 years and a shake up half way through isn't good enough. Back in 2018 CDPR admitted to restarting development several times, I think the game we got was mostly 2017-2020 assets and development except Night City itself and character concepts, they feel like they had the full 8 years and proper management.
Link: https://www.gamepur.com/news/cdpr-explains-why-it-took-cyberpunk-2077-too-long

I don't think any development studio is lazy, Bethesda games having 10 year old bugs in them for example, is not because the developers are lazy, it's because they are put onto other projects and stages of development by those in charge. Now I'm not a superfan, but I think with better inside communication and a more focused vision, CDPR could make anything they want to perfection. That goes for any studio really. Blowing budget on advertisement campaigns and celebrity inclusions don't return the investment when the project is finalized before completion.

The term 'lazy devs' really makes my skin crawl, especially with how rampant crunch and mandatory overtime is everywhere. Some of these guys and gals suffer from PTSD and mental breakdowns, only to see the response "The develops are just lazy!" when the product is released. I'm glad I don't work in this industry.