Mechanical Faithfulness to Cyberpunk 2020...

[ChooChooMan]

At the risk of what I write below, perhaps having been discussed previously. I did read through the thread but maybe I missed something:

It was pointed out earlier, by one or more forum users, that the FPS like gamplay would be a kind of opposite to RPG like gameplay, becuase of how you as a player would hit where your gun is looking at. I think there might be a happy in between solution.

Now, they way I started thinking after having seen the gameplay demo, was that the game might/could have a hybrid of sorts, of FPS like aiming gameplay where it is expected that a bullet accurately is hitting where the gun is pointing at, and, an RPG like hit system, where the roll of a dice invokes randomness.

An 'extreme' stat based hit system I think would be 'World of Tanks' using some kind of random number generator (or, bad net code, bad network conditions, not entirely sure, or maybe the entire game just recycles some pre-made hit table result that is shared between all players to reduce server computation), where you could be aiming at a tank, and not hitting it, not being very intuitive when missing a shot that way.

A mix I imagine, could be mixing an FPS like aiming system, with some chance of fumble if you will. The FPS like aiming would serve to allow a player to try select where the shots *might hit* as a preference, while the RPG like stat system and the game of chance with an invisible dice would try resolve a hit within some set of expectations. Aiming around the head, could invoke a hit, or a miss. Aiming around the torso, could invoke a hit or a miss. Aiming around the legs could invoke a hit or a miss. Then. Aiming at the head, could invoke a hit, or a miss, etc.

In order for such a hybrid system to seem satisfactory, and not seem like something out of World of Tanks with wacky random misses, there ought to be a graceful adjustment, such that, careful aiming might lead to a more FPS like hit detection, while quick or unsteady shots, might lead to a more RPG like hit resolve.

As for how to calculate spraying SMG gunfire against a target at point blank range, I guess a mix of statistical hits and RPG like adjustment and randomness might work, to avoid a 100% random result with all virtual low dice rolls, but also to avoid a 100% statistical outcome that might create an artificial feeling of guaranteed hits, as if being a repeating effect that you could game the game with. Perhaps, when firing an SMG at close range, one might find it acceptable that the bullet spread pattern, isn't perfect. OR maybe, instead of calculating statistics for all bullets fired, there could be some mechanic to calculate bullet spread (evaluating all or most bullets monolithically as if rolling once for a group of bullets fired), and then evaluate if perhaps all bullets are likely to hit with an FPS like resolve (when aiming good, and at close range).

 

[Snowflakez]

At the risk of what I write below, perhaps having been discussed previously. I read through the thread but maybe I missed something:

It was pointed out earlier, by one or more forum users, that the FPS like gamplay would be a kind of opposite to RPG like gameplay, becuase of how you as a player would hit where your gun is looking at. I think there might be a happy in between solution.

Now, they way I started thinking after having seen the gameplay demo, was that the game might/could have a hybrid of sorts, of FPS like aiming gameplay where it is expected that a bullet accurately is hitting where the gun is pointing at, and, an RPG like hit system, where the roll of a dice invokes randomness.

An 'extreme' stat based hit system I think would be 'World of Tanks' using some kind of random number generator (or, bad net code, bad network conditions, not entirely sure, or maybe the entire game just recycles some pre-made hit table result that is shared between all players to reduce server computation), where you could be aiming at a tank, and not hitting it, not being very intuitive when missing a shot that way.

A mix I imagine, could be mixing an FPS like aiming system, with some chance of fumble if you will. The FPS like aiming would serve to allow a player to try select where the shots *might hit* as a preference, while the RPG like stat system and the game of chance with an invisible dice would try resolve a hit within some set of expectations. Aiming around the head, could invoke a hit, or a miss. Aiming around the torso, could invoke a hit or a miss. Aiming around the legs could invoke a hit or a miss. Then. Aiming at the head, could invoke a hit, or a miss, etc.

In order for such a hybrid system to seem satisfactory, and not seem like something out of World of Tanks with wacky random misses, there ought to be a graceful adjustment, such that, careful aiming might lead to a more FPS like hit detection, while quick or unsteady shots, might lead to a more RPG like hit resolve.

Yeah, this is pretty similar to a what a lot of us are asking for.

We know twitch aiming isn't going anywhere anytime soon. But having some amount of randomness based on weapons skill would be a nice boon. If people want to play the game as an FPS, they can - they can focus on shooty bang bang gameplay and quickly get their weapons skills to the point where it's indistinguishable from normal twitch shooting.

 

[Sardukhar]

You don't choose your Role (I refer to the roleplay part). You are a Solo, the world act with you as a Solo and you get jobs fitted for Solo.

What? Edgerunners are mercenaries. They take (typically ugly) complex jobs for money. That's what edgerunners do. Even if you start as a Corp or a Cop, if you are part of an Edgerunner team, you are a merc. Not to mention, in PnP there is a good chance you are suddenly jobless at the start of the campaign. So, mercenary. That's how 2020 is designed.

The gameplay we saw was focussed on combat, but there are non combat choices. And every Cyberpunk character fights. It's a Dark future. You go through Forlorn Hope or Home of the Brave and find some non-combat Jobs, good luck.

IF your Ref is running a pure Corp campaign ( super rare) or maybe a Medtech campaign ( never seen one, I don't count TT because, yes loads of combat) then I suppose you could have a non-combat experience. Again, never seen that.

The typical and vast majority of Cyberpunk 2020 games are violent as all get out - the ones in the books and the ones that get run. Every Role fights and can fight. You can opt not to get combat-survival cyber and gear, and then you can die, unless your Team covers your butt and your Ref is generous. Using skinweave and smartlinks does not a Solo make. Living is what it makes.

And don't get me started on the Net. It's as or more lethal than the rest of the game. More fighting there. Murder, murder, murder, welcome to Cyberpunk 2020.

So just because you see V fight, don't assume that she has to be a Solo or that the only mission solutions are combat. In fact, she finished the Maelstrom mission in the GC demo as a man and without combat. Not really the Solo forte.

 

[Snowflakez]

So just because you see V fight, don't assume that she has to be a Solo or that the only mission solutions are combat. In fact, she finished the Maelstrom mission in the GC demo as a man and without combat. Not really the Solo forte.

Until the end, that is, when the demo player decided to take offense because Royce criticized his jacket.

 

[ac01yte]

Until the end, that is, when the demo player decided to take offense because Royce criticized his jacket.

Eh. Game journalists, they were there to see combat, they got shown combat.

I really hope the next demo shows something other than combat....... Like maybe some more RPG stuff. Of course every bit of that shown is much more of a spoiler than a half hour of shooting, but still it'd be nice to see something like that.

- Shane

 

[ChooChooMan]

If people want to play the game as an FPS, they can - they can focus on shooty bang bang gameplay and quickly get their weapons skills to the point where it's indistinguishable from normal twitch shooting.

I don't know what this means, or, I don't understand your point with this. Could you please clarify?

 

[Snowflakez]

I don't know what this means, or, I don't understand your point with this. Could you please clarify?

Sorry, I was referring to past discussions we'd had but I realize I didn't actually elaborate that much here.

One system we often discuss on these forums is an FPS/RPG hybrid system, where player skill does matter -- you need to actually aim at enemies to hit them -- but it's also impacted by RPG systems.

So, let's say you start with a low Handgun skill. When you use pistols, your recoil will be higher, bullet spread will be wider, reload speed will be slower. Over time, those handicaps get reduced to the point where they are essentially non-existent, as the player gets better at the Handgun skill.

Thus, a player who doesn't like RPGs and wants to play the game as an FPS can do so, by focusing on shooting. Granted, RPG fans will also follow a similar path, but they will find the experience to be more satisfying because there's an element of character (not player) skill progression.

Essentially, this would be a smoother, more polished, and more "satisfying" version of Vampire The Masquerade Bloodlines' gun combat.

Eh. Game journalists, they were there to see combat, they got shown combat.

I really hope the next demo shows something other than combat....... Like maybe some more RPG stuff. Of course every bit of that shown is much more of a spoiler than a half hour of shooting, but still it'd be nice to see something like that.

- Shane

Fair point. I don't judge CDPR for it, I figured it was to keep things exciting, I just thought it was funny that they felt the need to "ruin" the non-lethal gameplay over such a petty insult.

 

[ChooChooMan]

Thus, a player who doesn't like RPGs and wants to play the game as an FPS can do so, by focusing on shooting.

Ah ok. Well, my opinion then is that I think there ought not be this type of separation, as if catering to two types of gameplay. Edit: Admittely, I am not entirely sure why I think this. Perhaps because it seems weird to have the game work in two different ways.

The reason I say this, is because, although it makes sense to think of FPS like aiming to reflect twitch based human-player-skill like activity (pointing at stuff with your mouse), I think some randomness should be included, which would have to involve some kind of roll of a dice, as if the game would check for a fumble, even if rarely happen. If this in turn could be implemented and look good, is an open question again I must admit. Perhaps, to avoid a random fumble to appear too frequent by being involved in many firefights (as opposed to some less hectic pnp game session presumably with much fewer firefights), a more attractive option with regard (for me) to wanting some randomness, would be to have a variety of fumbles with a focus on harmless fumbles, however I guess to make that look natural, some additional work with animations might be in order, like if obviously losing your balance for a brief moment, as opposed to maybe falling over when firing. Presumably, this fumble system I imagine, would require it being situational and not just wholly random, as if spontaneously falling to the floor when firing, as if having rolled a fumble result with no obvious/apparent causal relationship between a fumble and the action causing the fumble.

 

[Snowflakez]

Ah ok. Well, my opinion then is that I think there ought not be this type of separation, as if catering to two types of gameplay. Edit: Admittely, I am not entirely sure why I think this. Perhaps because it seems weird to have the game work in two different ways.

The reason I say this, is because, although it makes sense to think of FPS like aiming to reflect twitch based human-player-skill like activity (pointing at stuff with your mouse), I think some randomness should be included, which would have to involve some kind of roll of a dice, as if the game would check for a fumble, even if rarely happen. If this in turn could be implemented and look good, is an open question again I must admit. Perhaps, to avoid a random fumble to appear too frequent by being involved in many firefights (as opposed to some less hectic pnp game session presumably with much fewer firefights), a more attractive option with regard (for me) to wanting some randomness, would be to have a variety of fumbles with a focus on harmless fumbles, however I guess to make that look natural, some additional work with animations might be in order, like if obviously losing your balance for a brief moment, as opposed to maybe falling over when firing. Presumably, this fumble system I imagine, would require it being situational and not just wholly random, as if spontaneously falling to the floor when firing, as if having rolled a fumble result with no obvious/apparent causal relationship between a fumble and the action causing the fumble.

The system I suggested would implement everything you mentioned. Bullet spread and such would be RNG-based, so dice would definitely be rolled. And if you're using a semi-automatic weapon, it would pretty much feel just like what you're saying.

What I'm suggesting is actually the opposite of separation. It's using already-present shooting mechanics in an FPS (bullet spread and such) and directly tying it to RPG systems.

 

[Sardukhar]

Eh. Game journalists, they were there to see combat, they got shown combat.

I really hope the next demo shows something other than combat....... Like maybe some more RPG stuff. Of course every bit of that shown is much more of a spoiler than a half hour of shooting, but still it'd be nice to see something like that.

- Shane

Yes to all the above.

Combat is dramatic and plays well. And Cyberpunk has a lot of it.

That said, it is also replete with non combat material and I look forward to that as well.

Mostly, mechanically, I'm worried about the social gameplay - skills, stats, etc. That is often overlooked.

 

[Snowflakez]

Yes to all the above.

Combat is dramatic and plays well. And Cyberpunk has a lot of it.

That said, it is also replete with non combat material and I look forward to that as well.

Mostly, mechanically, I'm worried about the social gameplay - skills, stats, etc. That is often overlooked.

Yeah, not looking too good on that front. I didn't see a single dialogue skill check in any of the 48 minutes of the demo, and they haven't mentioned any social skills whatsoever whenever they bring the topic up (or answer a question related to it).

Would have been many good parts to have a skill check, too. The corpo encounter, for example. If you failed the dialogue check, maybe she agrees to help you but still spikes the chip, but if you succeed, she agrees to help you without spiking the chip, and goes after the gang herself later.

If you attempt to intimidate Royce and fail (not taking your gun out, just intimidating by saying "you don't want to screw with me" or something more clever), maybe he orders his men to shoot at you right then and there, or knocks you to the ground, disorienting you and putting you at a disadvantage either way. If you succeed, perhaps with a bit of humor, the encounter is instantly defused and everybody starts chuckling, with Royce deciding "you ain't so bad after all" or something like that.

Lots of possibilities. Hopefully similar ones are explored.

 

[Rawls]

Yeah, not looking too good on that front. I didn't see a single dialogue skill check in any of the 48 minutes of the demo, and they haven't mentioned any social skills whatsoever whenever they bring the topic up (or answer a question related to it).

But there is a social tab in the inventory screen. I think Mike Pondsmith mentioned dialogue options being at least somewhat connected to the Cool stat. https://www.ign.com/articles/2018/06/14/e3-2018-cyberpunk-2077-has-a-cool-stat-heres-what-it-does

 

[ChooChooMan]

In a pnp game session, you could try do anything, and it would be nice I think, if playing the game, wasn't relying on a limited set of gimmicks.

Understandably, to create a fully interactive world would be difficult, if not basically impossible within what is expected of a game company in terms of resources and time spend on such work.

Having said that, I am sure that CP2077 is better off having lots of what I call 'player options', to allow a player to actually do various things, as opposed to merely having a game in which all players typically just moves around from A to B in some same-old-way by driving and walking, being in combat, and then having fancy cut scenes or whatever.

I think it would be nice if there was (for example) locks to break open, fences to cut holes into, roofs that could be walked on (to some extent), things to climb up on, special equipment to use perhaps. It would be imperative that such ideas aren't selected at random by devs, but instead, thoroughly investigated and evaluated as a whole, to better get to decide what things might be interesting and what things to better incorporate, and figure out what things that might be undesirable for whatever reason.

 

[Snowflakez]

But there is a social tab in the inventory screen. I think Mike Pondsmith mentioned dialogue options being at least somewhat connected to the Cool stat. https://www.ign.com/articles/2018/06/14/e3-2018-cyberpunk-2077-has-a-cool-stat-heres-what-it-does

Yeah, I noticed that. I wonder what there would need to be an entire menu for. Is that a hint at multiplayer, or maybe just a way for you to contact NPCs? I can't imagine CDPR would force the MP into your face so much that it actually encroaches on your SP screen space, much less an entire menu, but you never know...

I'd also heard about the Cool stat thing. Not quite what I'd prefer, but a general "persuade" option tied to an RPG stat of some kind would be better than nothing. Ideally, we'd have persuade and threaten, tied to specific skills, but I recognize that's a bit unlikely.

 

[Rawls]

In a pnp game session, you could try do anything, and it would be nice I think, if playing the game, wasn't relying on a limited set of gimmicks.

It's a cRPG, by definition everything you can choose to do has to be programmed and coded. There will be a finite number of ways to approach any given encounter.

I can't imagine CDPR would force the MP into your face so much that it actually encroaches on your SP screen space, much less an entire menu, but you never know...

Considering they explicitly have said no multiplayer at launch, I doubt there would be a tab for it at this point.

 

[EngryEngineer]

Again you seem to mistake a normal t-shirt or motorcycle jacket for body armor, or assume any, and all, t-shirts and motorcycle jackets in 2077 are body armor. Both equally baffling as I totally fail to see any logic what-so-ever behind such assumptions.

To be fair, armored clothing that is as, or slightly less effective, than flak vest (sp 20) are pretty common in CP2020, and not terribly expensive. For a gang that goes around the most dangerous city in the world, kidnapping people and stripping their cyberware (and other "valuables" like armored clothing) I'm sure coming up with a medium or heavy armor jacket probably wouldn't be much of an issue, and would be pretty logical to invest in.

Rewatching the demo the scavs that wear t-shirts (which could be kevlar t-shirts at SP10), don't seem to take as many hits as the second scav killed (who appears to be wearing a non-trivial jacket, could be medium with sp18 ?) & the boss-scav who is wearing a more substantial jacket (heavy sp20 ?).

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

What? Edgerunners are mercenaries. They take (typically ugly) complex jobs for money. That's what edgerunners do. Even if you start as a Corp or a Cop, if you are part of an Edgerunner team, you are a merc. Not to mention, in PnP there is a good chance you are suddenly jobless at the start of the campaign. So, mercenary. That's how 2020 is designed.

The gameplay we saw was focussed on combat, but there are non combat choices. And every Cyberpunk character fights. It's a Dark future. You go through Forlorn Hope or Home of the Brave and find some non-combat Jobs, good luck.

IF your Ref is running a pure Corp campaign ( super rare) or maybe a Medtech campaign ( never seen one, I don't count TT because, yes loads of combat) then I suppose you could have a non-combat experience. Again, never seen that.

The typical and vast majority of Cyberpunk 2020 games are violent as all get out - the ones in the books and the ones that get run. Every Role fights and can fight. You can opt not to get combat-survival cyber and gear, and then you can die, unless your Team covers your butt and your Ref is generous. Using skinweave and smartlinks does not a Solo make. Living is what it makes.

And don't get me started on the Net. It's as or more lethal than the rest of the game. More fighting there. Murder, murder, murder, welcome to Cyberpunk 2020.

So just because you see V fight, don't assume that she has to be a Solo or that the only mission solutions are combat. In fact, she finished the Maelstrom mission in the GC demo as a man and without combat. Not really the Solo forte.

You miss the point about what I'm saying.
In PnP your character have motivations to do what they do, and most of the time survival is the reason why a team exist.
In C2077, V is deliberaly putting herself at gun range for money, that's just totally written "Solo" in my book.

Or do you thinks I can refuse those missions I saw in the demo and just do other things for other reasons?
Like:
-Fighting authorities.
-Uncover the secrets hiding in the net.
-Making publics the fucked up part of the world.

Actually it seems to me that the game assume I'll do mission because of money, and I'll do because it a videogame and V forgot to have a Day Job, but clearly I won't care money as a reason.

 

[Sardukhar]

Or do you thinks I can refuse those missions I saw in the demo and just do other things for other reasons?
Like:
-Fighting authorities.
-Uncover the secrets hiding in the net.
-Making publics the fucked up part of the world.
.

Hmm. I see what you mean.

Well, hrm. I really hope so? It's true we've only seen typical Edgerunner missions, but certainly what you list is also part of Cyberpunk.

Mechanically, the first I think is highly probable. The authorities are the Corps and we are going to use the same system to fight them.

The second is inevitable, but I suspect such secrets wouldn't change the world. Also because 2077 seems to be using the "balkanized" Net of post 2025, where the World Wide Web isn't such a thing anymore.

The third thing is probably too large-scale for this game, but might play a part in the overall plot.

Gotta remember, CDPR is introducing Cyberpunk to a lot of people, so the more esoteric mission and campaign goals aren't likely to make up the meat of the game.

I would certainly be interested in a playthrough possibility as a Netrunner who hacks, manipulates and out-thinks his way through the game. And of course has a to shoot a couple people.

 

[drow5426]

Until the end, that is, when the demo player decided to take offense because Royce criticized his jacket.

Thats retarded. I hope its not in the main game. It just doesnt make sense

 

[Snowflakez]

Thats retarded. I hope its not in the main game. It just doesnt make sense

Yeah, it was only for demo purposes. They could have easily just ignored Royce's taunts, but the demo player (CDPR employee) wanted to get into a fight so they could show it off for the audience. Otherwise, it would have been a totally "clean" (barring the first bit with the scavengers and the trauma team) run.

I completely agree that such a situation would be stupid if it was forced.