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Mechanical Faithfulness to Cyberpunk 2020...

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Keith_Latondress

Keith_Latondress

Forum regular
#321
Sep 14, 2018
ok cool well it looks like I have some games too look at.
 
Suhiira

Suhiira

Forum veteran
#322
Sep 14, 2018
Keith_Latondress said:
The most Realistic RPG with the most Realistic rule set for modern combat in my opinion was an RPG called "Millennium's End."
Click to expand...
If you can find a copy the original "Morrow Project" RPG was excellent as well.
If something of a pain-in-the-ass to run/play because of it's rather excessive realism.

I ran a campaign in the mid 80's for a year or so and streamlined a number of things to make it more playable.

YES, there is such a thing as "to much" realism in a game. Most games however go far to far in the opposite direction.
 
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EngryEngineer

EngryEngineer

Forum regular
#323
Sep 14, 2018
Suhiira said:
If you can find a copy the original "Morrow Project" RPG was excellent as well.
If something of a pain-in-the-ass to run/play because of it's rather excessive realism.

I ran a campaign in the mid 80's for a year or so and streamlined a number of things to make it more playable.

YES, there is such a thing as "to much" realism in a game. Most games however go far to far in the opposite direction.
Click to expand...
My god, I didn't think I'd ever hear anyone else reference Morrow Project! If you like crunch that game makes most seem unbreaded. I'll never forget that first time I looked out of my bunker's periscope and saw what had to be a gigantic wolf scarf down a deer with one bite, or narrowly escaped from my first encounter with a blue undead...sadly we weren't using our geiger counter, we didn't realize it was already too late.

You get all the red points I can give, sadly that is only one, but know that I'd give you more if I could.
 
Suhiira

Suhiira

Forum veteran
#324
Sep 14, 2018
EngryEngineer said:
I'll never forget that first time I looked out of my bunker's periscope and saw what had to be a gigantic wolf scarf down a deer with one bite, or narrowly escaped from my first encounter with a blue undead...sadly we weren't using our geiger counter, we didn't realize it was already too late.
Click to expand...
I swapped out the V-150 for a LAV-25 because I didn't want my players having multiple vehicles (I had 5 players and the vehicle driver and radio/sensor operator were NPCs because they were pretty much tied to the vehicle) and it had a MUCH better cargo capacity (they were a heavy recon team).

Once they ran into a nut-case bandit who tried to rob them, after he bounced multiple .50cal black power balls off the vehicle the gunner put a 25mm APFSDS round thru his forehead (he COULD have used the MG, but nooooooo ...). They also mounted a Mercedes Benz hood ornament on the 25mm. Then there was the time one of them emptied a drum from full-auto 12ga and rolled so poorly he missed a target at 15m, I had a couple geese that "just happened" to be flying overhead fall out of the sky. They ate well that night anyway.
 
Last edited: Sep 15, 2018
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EngryEngineer

EngryEngineer

Forum regular
#325
Sep 14, 2018
Suhiira said:
I swapped out the V-150 for a LAV-25 because I didn't want my players having multiple vehicles (I had 5 players and the vehicle driver and radio/sensor operator were NPCs becausse they were pretty much tied to the vehicle) and it had a MUCH better cargo capacity (they were a heavy recon team).

Once they ran into a nut-case bandit who tried to rob them, fter he bounced multiple .50cal black power balls off the vehicle the gunner put a 25mm APFSDS round thru his forehead (he COULD have used the MG, but nooooooo ...). They also mounted a Mercedes Benz hood ornament in the 25mm. Then there was the time one of them emptied a drum from full-auto 12ga and rolled so poorly he missed a target at 15m, I had a couple geese that "just happened" to be flying overhead fall out of the sky. They ate well that night anyway.
Click to expand...
Every time I played we wound up rolling for team nerd, so we usually found ourselves more on the failing to rebuild infrastructure/society type missions. It was a blast, but more misadventures with power plants than military hardware.
 
Suhiira

Suhiira

Forum veteran
#326
Sep 14, 2018
And speaking of CP2020 here's a good overview of PnP CP2020 for those not familiar with the game.

 
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GW84

GW84

Rookie
#327
Sep 15, 2018
Suhiira said:
And speaking of CP2020 here's a good overview of PnP CP2020 for those not familiar with the game.

Click to expand...
Thanks for posting this primer to the PnP-game. Wasn't familiar with the original game and can now understand the concern many have if the game will capture the spirit of the PnP's rules.
 
ChooChooMan

ChooChooMan

Rookie
#328
Sep 15, 2018
I want to point out that I think the artwork in Cyberpunk 2020 was very important to establish a look and a mood, with crisp and high contrast line drawings, and then I guess there were textured (warm?) drawings as well. Never relying on color at all. It IS nice that the cover for the sourcebook is colored though. Presumably, some of the charm was having to sort of imagine the rest of it, just like when reading a book with text only.

Admittedly, I don't remember if any of the later extra material books for CP2020 had color in them.
 
kofeiiniturpa

kofeiiniturpa

Mentor
#329
Sep 15, 2018
Suhiira said:
Fallout 1 & 2 did well enough.
Click to expand...
They weren’t initially overly succesful, but they did reach a cult status and birthed one of the most revered and succesful RPG franchises.

It's really a matter of making the stats/skills interesting and useful. If they're "just numbers" that are rarely relevant to actual gameplay I can certainly see why they'd turn many people off.
Click to expand...
Indeed.

That’s what I’ve been trying to push for for the past 5-6 years.
 
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Keith_Latondress

Keith_Latondress

Forum regular
#330
Sep 15, 2018
ChooChooMan said:
I want to point out that I think the artwork in Cyberpunk 2020 was very important to establish a look and a mood, with crisp and high contrast line drawings, and then I guess there were textured (warm?) drawings as well. Never relying on color at all. It IS nice that the cover for the sourcebook is colored though. Presumably, some of the charm was having to sort of imagine the rest of it, just like when reading a book with text only.

Admittedly, I don't remember if any of the later extra material books for CP2020 had color in them.
Click to expand...
majority of the books are black and white I do believe one of the chrome books had a few glossy pages that where done in colour.
 
Suhiira

Suhiira

Forum veteran
#331
Sep 16, 2018
Here's a pretty good analysis of Dragon Age: Origins as a computer role playing game (cRPG).
In terms of what makes a video game an RPG.
And lots of other stuff as well of course (skill trees, etc.).


Of particular note is the area around 1:20:00 discussing the Lothering portion of the game. Regarding character skills, skill use, player choice, etc.
 
Last edited: Sep 16, 2018
Garrison72

Garrison72

Mentor
#332
Sep 16, 2018
Suhiira said:
Here's a pretty good analysis of Dragon Age: Origins as a computer role playing game (cRPG).
In terms of what makes a video game an RPG.
And lots of other stuff as well of course (skill trees, etc.).

Click to expand...
One of the first RPGs to combine old school mechanics and depth with the new cinematic style and high production values. The game is essentially a perfect bridge in that regard.
 
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Loostreaks

Loostreaks

Rookie
#333
Sep 16, 2018
Snowflakez said:
@Sardukhar I think the point of contention here is that CDPR's games aren't as open-ended as 2020. V is a mercenary by design - whether you like it or not, you WILL shoot, you WILL kill (most likely), you will most likely have to "go loud" quite a bit.

You may technically be able to do netrunner-like things, but at the end of the day, a solo is what you are because V is a pre-determined character. For example, she's forced to get solo-focused implants like a subdermal weapon grip.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree (though I see the merits of that argument), just trying to clarify what I think
@KakitaTatsumaru is getting at.
Click to expand...
Different kinds of mercenary. Almost every video rpg, except for extremely short ones ( like Age of Decadence) has a default class that everything is built around.
In fantasy games, you're always "forced" to be an adventurer. In post/apocalyptic ones a scavenger. In open world games like TES, an explorer. In Cyberpunk it makes sense you are a mercenary.
People who expected here to hold concerts as rockerboy, run/or work for corporation or for media agency...had simply far too unrealistic expectations.
For that kind of game you would have to design something fundamentally completely different from nearly anything on the market. Mount and Blade would be closest to it.
You'd need budget the size of a small country, and thousands of people putting god knows how many years of work, to pull it off in something like this.
 
drow5426

drow5426

Rookie
#334
Sep 16, 2018
Loostreaks said:
Different kinds of mercenary. Almost every video rpg, except for extremely short ones ( like Age of Decadence) has a default class that everything is built around.
In fantasy games, you're always "forced" to be an adventurer. In post/apocalyptic ones a scavenger. In open world games like TES, an explorer. In Cyberpunk it makes sense you are a mercenary.
People who expected here to hold concerts as rockerboy, run/or work for corporation or for media agency...had simply far too unrealistic expectations.
For that kind of game you would have to design something fundamentally completely different from nearly anything on the market. Mount and Blade would be closest to it.
You'd need budget the size of a small country, and thousands of people putting god knows how many years of work, to pull it off in something like this.
Click to expand...
why would Mount and Blade be the closest to it ?
 
Loostreaks

Loostreaks

Rookie
#335
Sep 16, 2018
Suhiira said:
Here's a pretty good analysis of Dragon Age: Origins as a computer role playing game (cRPG).
In terms of what makes a video game an RPG.
And lots of other stuff as well of course (skill trees, etc.).

Click to expand...
It was pretty good, but I expect a lot more here. DAO had very linear/simple quest design with almost no gameplay alternatives, player skills/stats had almost no impact on dialogue, background had few real consequences and choices were mostly binary and simple in implementation ( support good/bad guy-> extra summon at the end+slider). Plus level scaling through out.
Also known as Nostalgia effect. :p
Except for less dialogue options, I think CDPR will do better here. That Maelstrom quest alone was more complex than anything in DAO, when it comes to options and player agency. And tbh, I prefer a more freeform char progression than choose a class and always pick the same few abilities.
Post automatically merged: Sep 16, 2018

drow5426 said:
why would Mount and Blade be the closest to it ?
Click to expand...
It's a completely open sandbox with no central narrative or quests that's entirely centered around rpg mechanics and factions.
CDPR could actually design something like this,( and damn I'd love to see this) but I'm not sure they have the manpower for this. Or tech.
Cyberpunk Online.
Pick a role at the beginning with set skills, gain xp from MMO-like tasks ( designed for each role) and eventually ally with each faction, engaged in fight for control over Night City.

But you can also kiss goodbye story, characters, quests, a ton of simulation elements, protagonist voice acting, etc, etc.
 
Last edited: Sep 16, 2018
kofeiiniturpa

kofeiiniturpa

Mentor
#336
Sep 17, 2018
Loostreaks said:
It was pretty good, but I expect a lot more here.
Click to expand...
Same here.

DAO had some good ideas and the design core had its heart in the right place, but it was ultimately just about going from cutscenes to grinding trashmobs and back to cutscenes.
 
KakitaTatsumaru

KakitaTatsumaru

Forum veteran
#337
Sep 17, 2018
kofeiiniturpa said:
Same here.

DAO had some good ideas and the design core had its heart in the right place, but it was ultimately just about going from cutscenes to grinding trashmobs and back to cutscenes.
Click to expand...
Besides in DAO it is not possible to grind nor there is thrashmobs, as every fight in this game is hand placed and cannot be done again...
Console version maybe?
 
kofeiiniturpa

kofeiiniturpa

Mentor
#338
Sep 17, 2018
KakitaTatsumaru said:
Besides in DAO it is not possible to grind nor there is thrashmobs, as every fight in this game is hand placed and cannot be done again...
Click to expand...
Doesn’t really matter what it’s called, the effect is still the same. The constant fighting and mowing through hordes of enemies slowed the game to a crawl and in its exhausting repetition was one of the biggest reasons I never finished it.

(No, not a console version.)
 
S

sv3672

Forum veteran
#339
Sep 17, 2018
Loostreaks said:
Cyberpunk Online.
Pick a role at the beginning with set skills, gain xp from MMO-like tasks ( designed for each role) and eventually ally with each faction, engaged in fight for control over Night City.

But you can also kiss goodbye story, characters, quests, a ton of simulation elements, protagonist voice acting, etc, etc.
Click to expand...
Cyberpunk 2076.
 
KakitaTatsumaru

KakitaTatsumaru

Forum veteran
#340
Sep 17, 2018
kofeiiniturpa said:
Doesn’t really matter what it’s called, the effect is still the same. The constant fighting and mowing through hordes of enemies slowed the game to a crawl and in its exhausting repetition was one of the biggest reasons I never finished it.

(No, not a console version.)
Click to expand...
Maybe you should have played in a harder difficulty so that every fight would be an interesting challenge if you feel ennemies are just slowing you down instead of being part of the fun.
Personally I prefer playing it on Nightmare difficulty.
 
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