They should rephrase this to: "We'll teach you to win every firefight but one." and let people "figure it out" on their own.
What a novel concept ... a game rewarding you for avoiding combat.
Isn't that illegal, immoral, or something?
Isn't that illegal, immoral, or something?
You are describing the universe/setting, not the rules that govern how everything works though. And herein lies the crucial difference: If you say "we are making a video game based on [the boardgame] Space Hulk" then there are certain expectations (including the system it uses) for it, and that's different from simply using the [WH40k] universe Space Hulk [the board game] uses as a setting.
Not really...? You can do something extremely dangerous and/or stupid, and be rewarded for it. If you succeed. But what if you fail? You have to get a new character. So you want to play it smart. Unless you really like combat itself and don't mind re-rolling characters [very] often.
You can make the character become better at combat - and indirectly make the player better at it as a result - if you will take good enough care of him/her, which would encourage you to not die. Of course, you can't die in CP77, but how about being put into a hospital where you lose stats (something like the prison in The Elder Scrolls series)?
It's possible to make it so that your armor can stop bullets and have limited durability, meaning tanking hits too often will render it useless and result in your death. That's where the balance of things comes into play: you can obtain gear to increase your survivability, without rendering combat trivial at the same time.
What bugs me out is that in the demo nothing was reflecting on this V were just rambo sliding around killing countless of ennemies in a blink of the eye while sliding in perfect Michael Bay movie like.
The Lethality of the setting was totally missing at the point i really believe they never adapted the Pen and Paper to traslate better to real time they just scrapped the majority of them in favour of shooter mechanics and honestly i never expected this to start with, the team like wisdom said at the time were more inclined to adapt something they released also a graphic explaining their intention inside the blog.
The current system has nothing about the pen and paper and what is displayed about combat don't have any Cyberpunk feel instead it feels just the ordinary shooter no more no less.
All seemed to be extremely gamey and suffering about a huge lack of depth and that is truly disappointing and a waste opportunity considering the amazing job they did with the artstyle in the game.
We are in a situation where the gameplay creates a deep disconnection with the world displayed and in many part felt also a lot lorebreaking harming not only the lethality of the setting ((in cyberpunk you are not supposed to be a superhero)) but also the credibility of it.
Now i am aware this is an alpha but if that is the direction the game is going to take i don't see it how it could appeal to pen and paper fans or roleplayers.
And before someone will scream "But that would means they had to make the game isometric and turn based" no is not true all they had to do is adapt the pen and paper mechanic in manner they could be used in real time and that's it.
Instead in the game we have Levels ((very not cyberpunk like)) and many other stuff displayed that was clashing with the setting as well.
The Lethality of the setting was totally missing at the point i really believe they never adapted the Pen and Paper to traslate better to real time they just scrapped the majority of them in favour of shooter mechanics and honestly i never expected this to start with, the team like wisdom said at the time were more inclined to adapt something they released also a graphic explaining their intention inside the blog.
The current system has nothing about the pen and paper and what is displayed about combat don't have any Cyberpunk feel instead it feels just the ordinary shooter no more no less.
All seemed to be extremely gamey and suffering about a huge lack of depth and that is truly disappointing and a waste opportunity considering the amazing job they did with the artstyle in the game.
We are in a situation where the gameplay creates a deep disconnection with the world displayed and in many part felt also a lot lorebreaking harming not only the lethality of the setting ((in cyberpunk you are not supposed to be a superhero)) but also the credibility of it.
Now i am aware this is an alpha but if that is the direction the game is going to take i don't see it how it could appeal to pen and paper fans or roleplayers.
And before someone will scream "But that would means they had to make the game isometric and turn based" no is not true all they had to do is adapt the pen and paper mechanic in manner they could be used in real time and that's it.
Instead in the game we have Levels ((very not cyberpunk like)) and many other stuff displayed that was clashing with the setting as well.
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What are you talking about? It was very lethal to the enemies.
WOW it sounds so easy! Now try to adapt the mechanics of pnp to FPS, despite the fact that one presence of a combat system in real time causes resentment from cyberpunks of this forum.
You speak as is some rocket science complicate matters to do.. Other games in past managed to do that pretty well.. An example? Vampire bloodlines that sadly went up buggy because at the time the game was pushed out on release while still being an alpha.. But is easy to figure out how to traslate how work some skills in real time and the cummunity given a lot and like a lot of good suggestions in that regard in past.
Truly is not problem is on my opinion CD projekt is create this disconnection because they are pandering more to "Player agency" instead of "Character agency" this is not how should be for titles based on a pen and paper and is also why the game looks mainly like a shooter and don't follow not even by far the pen and paper mechanics.
A nice example:
In new vegas skills of characters were absolutely vital they were able to open up new dialogue options at the time offer different resolution of quest of opening new storylines.. If your character sucked on shooting it sucked on shooting despite having a real time combat system.
Fallout 4: The character is a superhero that does not need much to take down ennemies just bullets.. Skills were absent just replaced by perks and there was absolutely not many roleplay elements.. Is a game where the player is involved directly by shooting things and the character has little importance ((this is why fallout 4 is more a themepark shooter than a rpg.))
When you create a videogame based on a pen and paper you should be able to keep in mind the heritage the setting and the system come from. Is true you can't adapt completely a pen and paper system in to real time however you can have similiar effects adapting how skill works and stuff like that, for example your character if has not the appropriate stats or skills for shooting will be less accurate doing soon he will fill more the recoil he will slower to reload the weapon there are countless of manner a pen and paper system can be adapted avoiding to get totally destroyed.
Sadly in the case of Cyberpunk2077 the system was not adapted but totally changed at the point that even mess with the nature of the pen and paper game by doing combat something mundane super ordinary and no lethal, by gutting what made cyberpunk 2020 amazing in favour of generic shooter mechanics, implementing something that gutted what was distinguish Cyberpunk from other systems like implementing levels that don't belong in cyberpunk, seeing your character acting like rambo in close combat shotout with muliple opponents with regenerating health and slow motion in perfect Micheal bay style.
It may be cool to see but that is not cyberpunk.
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They could (relatively) easily make combat work such that every round fired from hip calculates the chance and rolls if it hits the object being pointed at (the enemys torso, head or limbs; or a or shootable object in the environment) or something beside it based on the characters aptitude and circumstantial modifiers, and when pulling iron sights, the aim could wobble and wander like it often does with sniper rifle scopes in games. And at the same time, roll for the damage between the given range as in the PnP.
And smart guns could basically work the samiliarly to hip-fire, but with locking on to the target. Or alternatively.... I don't even know why the fuck do I keep repeating this.
And smart guns could basically work the samiliarly to hip-fire, but with locking on to the target. Or alternatively.... I don't even know why the fuck do I keep repeating this.
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Because it is.
Old cRPG (Bloodlines, Deus Ex) games did use the aim circle to represent the main character's skill with guns. This can be converted into modern FPS gaming by using sway and recoil control instead, in order to stimulate character's skill with weapons. It's also a pretty realistic way of modeling how you aim with the weapon in real life, given my personal experience with air guns.
Even Morrowind managed it (even if its visual presentation of a miss would need some work).
It isn't that complicated.
What is impossible is to make shooter games players happy while doing it, because if a bullet doesn't go where their crossair is they will be angry, even if the reason why it does is because they did not put points in their shooting skills (See their complaint for Fallout 3/ Fallout New Vegas for example).
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That's why the game should decidedly and clearly be made to not have such an element that divides so strongly; like shooter combat in an RPG. It's not too late to do something about this.
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And herein lays the primary issue we RPG fans have.
It isn't that they "accidentally" turned an RPG into a shooter with their choice and implementation of mechanics, it seems they just adopted shooter mechanics wholesale and ignored the RPG elements that could have been implemented. We see nothing, absolutely nothing, in the demo to indicate the slightest attention was paid to CP2020's combat mechanics, it's pure shooter.
And realistically we know that's not going to change. Shooters are popular with a large segment of the gaming audience. We just want the option to play the game like an RPG, with a different, separate, set of mechanics.
Yes. And it's not just combat either. The gated skillchecks is another thing. Apparent lack of social skills and stats (even though they've said there are 'some' skill influence in dialog, they've also said they do not want to gate dialog behind skillchecks).
All in all... There's trememdous amount of focus put on world simulation and visuals, they've hired shooter specialist to tune their combat, they have very tight focus on storytelling and quest desgin.... But then, it seems the RPG systems and their application seem more like a necessary evil than something to actually put creativity and effort in (be it combat or otherwise), let alone put effort in them resembling 2020 mechanics somehow. That's the gist I'm getting so far.
We have stats limiting skill levels, levelups to increase stats so that you can learn more. Leveled enemies, MMO-style loot with peculiar subtitles "rare weapon", "uncommon item", "epic weapon".
There's arcade boss fights about shooting a highlighted weak spot while the boss is locked into a momentary trance of shooting at empty terrain.
All this screams cheap systems while huge amount of effort is put on stuff like the day/night cycles of AI bots that nobody notices and nobody can do anything with as the bots can't be interacted with.
I could be dead wrong here (and I hope I am too), of course, and the game is completely different when it releases, but this is what I'm getting right now from everything that's been shown and said. It sounds like a fine action adventure in a finely tuned city simulation, but it doesn't sound very much like an RPG.
Yeah, it isn't. But the games shouldn't be advertised as RPG's then, let alone RPG's inspired by PnP games.
I'd really like a set of different mechanisms (not just combat either), but I don't think that's going to happen. It means so much extra work in designing and tuning them and balancing the game twice for separate gameplay styles.
What I'd rather see in place of different systems is a completely new game (say, an AA old school spinoff). But here, with 2077, there have been plenty of good suggestions and ideas on how to manage with the current setup, and make it work more like an RPG. The question just is, has any of them or the various criticisms been picked up even as a broad stroke scetches "Hey, something like that might work here"? I do not know. CDPR has their vision about it - what ever it is; what was in the demo was anything but promising - and Sard has reminded me a couple of times that systems heavy design will likely be out of the question. I don’t really even know what to expect nor what’s plausible to hope for.
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All we need is to come up with a prototype built in source engine or unity/udk to prove the point. The old saying "make it like VtMB/Deus Ex/SS2/Morrowind(Fuck Morrowind and everything that comes after it)" just doesn't cut it. First and foremost, numbers in those games are out of proportions. Even for someone who never shot a gun in a shooting range, main protagonists in these games act like they're sleepy. Second, there's no ironsight to speak of, and so no way to simulate +3 to accuracy. Third, these games don't have any armor system to speak of. Fallout New Vegas does but not these and to compensate, Fallout New Vegas doesn't have any elaborate gun-in-player-hands formulas to speak of.
And to CDPR's credit, crits were not really randon, those happened when bullets flew to enemies' uncovered parts like the head.
And to CDPR's credit, crits were not really randon, those happened when bullets flew to enemies' uncovered parts like the head.
Even a set of crude but clear .gif images with explanations would make it clear. I've at times tried to draw a picture (or tweak a screenshot of another game) with Windows paint to visualize my point (because it's often misinterpreted or misunderstood), but I'm no artist.
It not like they had a weak fundation to start with.. Cyberpunk 2020 rule system is something that can easily be traslated in a real time game doesn matter the visual of it.. It has everything needed to cover varoious thing the real here is.. The will to make a game based on a pen and paper game that has absolutely nothing to do with even the spirit of that pen and paper game.
Nobody here was going to complain if the game had mechanics resembling enough the pen and paper but adapted to work for real time instead judging from the Demo the will is make a game for people that dislike rpg for people that enjoy open world shooters because judging from what i seen from the demo and what we know about other things ((like they don't want to gatekeep dialouges on skill)) this is not a rpg at all but instead a first person shooter with lite roleplay elements.
And that is a problem because if you make a game based on a certain world and a certain ruleset and the fan of the pen and paper are actually doubting this is going to work after you did show a gameplay video well that is a problem.
We don't know much but what we seen seems to indicate the fan of the pen and paper were not the most important target audience of this game or at least something changed or at least this is the feel i am getting.
Me,Sulhira,Wisdom and others were perfectly aware that a full conversion of the pen and paper on a videogame was not possible for this in the past years we spent time in this forum giving advises or even sharing ideas on how the system could be adapted to work in a real time prospective.
The real problem here is that the system was not adapted at all instead was completely changed with things that did break the spirit of the pen and paper game decision like adding levels or mmo colored kind of loot decision like don't gatekeep dialogues benhind skills.
I am not sure if this is a rpg anymore honestly.
It depends on the final end product.
If it stays at it is now (improbable) then I'd agree.
But see below.
Adding a different set of game mechanics IN THIS CASE wouldn't be all that difficult.
It's not like anyone expects them to turn it into a turn-based game or add third-person perspective (tho some would like both). It's merely a matter of taking the existing shooter mechanics and altering them into a pause-n-play system, no new animations required and very little new art, so the design portion is pretty easy (it's not insignificant, but it is easy).
Adding skill gates for RPG skill checks is easy to, just disable them for "Shooter Mode". It's no more difficult then designing it as a "pure" RPG in the first place.
It can be a "completely different" game depending on if you elect to play it in "Shooter" or "RPG" mode. No need for an entirely new and different game.
You can appeal to both crowds with a little extra work.
P.S.
I made my living as a Systems Analyst, this sort of thing is exactly what we do. Figure out if the desired results are possible given hardware/software/manpower limitations and determine how to best achieve them at the least cost and effort.
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I don't think 5 is obnoxiously spongy. It's a bit more than I'd like (3 ... or 1 to the head), but it's not obnoxious yet.
For me, it's not only the number of rounds that hit, but also the victim's response.
You get hard enough to do any damage in 2020 ( or real life) and you are stunned, shocked, messed up.
It's essential to the hyper-practical Krav Maga: Disrupt, Cause Pain, Off-balance.
People don't think clearly when this is happening to them.
In 2020 at least, you have to make a stun/shock save as soon as you take damage - and every hit afterwards. You fail, you are stunned and out of the fight until/if you recover.
So getting hit 5 times is five saves - most people fail at least one of those. The hits add up and it's harder and harder to save. You tend to be out of combat long before death or dismemberment occurs.
You get hard enough to do any damage in 2020 ( or real life) and you are stunned, shocked, messed up.
It's essential to the hyper-practical Krav Maga: Disrupt, Cause Pain, Off-balance.
People don't think clearly when this is happening to them.
In 2020 at least, you have to make a stun/shock save as soon as you take damage - and every hit afterwards. You fail, you are stunned and out of the fight until/if you recover.
So getting hit 5 times is five saves - most people fail at least one of those. The hits add up and it's harder and harder to save. You tend to be out of combat long before death or dismemberment occurs.