Mechanical Faithfulness to Cyberpunk 2020...

[kofeiiniturpa]

I'd call that lack of maintenance and preparation.

All the same. I failed opening the door both times. Failed badly.

The antifreeze didn't work on the door; it was still frozen shut. And for the lock I didn't have any at the time (yeah, preparation).

 

[Sardukhar]

All the same. I failed opening the door both times. Failed badly.

Yeah, that's not a skill roll for you, though. At all. That's like having rolls when you walk because you once tripped over a cracked sidewalk. You don't need a door-opening skill check.

If you want a roll descriptor for that, as a GM, I'd say you failed your Tech-Basic Tech check awhile ago to prep your car for the cold weather. And that's not a critical fail, probably an Easy or Average test that you were distracted during.

In a game sense, that check is a time waster. It adds little to the story or the character. The only times you would see that in my games are:

1. If you'd earned a critical fail earlier and I'd saved it for you . Because you deserve that kind of love.

2. If something bad was going to happen and you were under stress - then you might need a check to get the door open and get in the car. I've had that check made and people bounce off door frames or jam windows or whatever.

But the door freeze and the handle breaking weren't random, per se. Environmentally-caused negative situations, not skill checks. Your check is to avoid it, not solve it. You'd need the skill to fix the problem, though.

Mechanically, 2020 doesn't give a crap about anything that boring.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Yeah, that's not a skill roll for you, though. At all.

...

Hah.

Yeah, wellllll... As a skilled door opener (aren't we all) and with a fore-knowledge of the situation at hand, I should've taken into account the temperature and been more careful. Both times. Soooo, it kinda is related to my skill (excessive use of force in a wrong situation).....

And techically speaking... twisting an ankle while walking or running normallly happens quite often... it's such a normal thing to do, walking, that it hardly gets attention and sometimes you just lay your foot down just a bit at a wrong angle...

But, no no no no. I'm not asking for walking or door opening checks - even though I do think they could be fun, in a fun way - or anything like that. I just wanted to try and see where this'd go because it immediately popped in my mind.

The door got fixed and the key replaced. Moving on.

 

[Sardukhar]

But, no no no no. I'm not asking for walking or door opening checks - even though I do think they could be fun, in a fun way - or anything like that. I just wanted to try and see where this'd go because it immediately popped in my mind.

Well, I -do- use them, as I said and there is a place to check for otherwise routine activities - under stress or ( if your GM is a bastard) out of pure bad luck. The latter should be quite rare but the former is a common check.

That's where you get comedy like people running madly from gunfire, jerking open the car door with their cyberarm, really blowing the check and ripping the handle clean off, also causing them to lose their balance and fall onto the oil and rain-slick pavement.

Scramble madly -under- the vehicle to escape the incoming rounds, only for their more agile pal who leapt -through- the windshield to start the car and drive away..under speed...

Yep. Comedy gold.

 

[Snowflakez]

THAT is the real question, isn't it.

Not very goddamn much as your skills go up.

Critical Fail: 1 out of 10 is an autofail or roll-again situation. That means ballpark 2 auto-fails per session if a busy skill-session and not heavy RP instead. I also tend to not have rolls unless under stress, so that's a factor. You aren't going to crit fail opening your car door, as the corebook points out.

You can spend Luck to avoid this, of course, but even so, I use a second die roll 50/50 chance to see if it's an auto fail, so about 1/20.

One auto-failure in 20, before the player spends Luck, seems to work out for us. That's auto failures. You can still roll and have to add your skills in and fail from not being good enough of course.

Skill based failures it really depends on the skill. In the 2020 system, Skill Level 5 is generally competent. 6 is Professional ( 6: actually the skill level a programmer or dancer, for example, is described as being professional).

So if you have average stats of 5 and you are competent, you will automatically succeed at Easy tasks ( providing you don't roll that 1/20 critical fail) and about half the time, without gear or preparation you will succeed at Average tasks, just "winging it". With some gear and some prep time, you ( Made Up Average Stats Competent Skill guy) will automatically succeed at Average tasks and have a 50% chance with Difficult tasks on your first try.

As you might guess, if you are talented, like above-average stats and cyberenhanced with good gear, well, Difficult tasks become Easy pretty fast.

So a skilled expert with good gear should hard fail, under pressure, before spending his Luck, maaaybe 1/20 times on Difficult tasks. If the pressure isn't too great, if he's unwounded and undistracted, if he has good gear and some prep time.

In the real world, that expert, if for example he knows it's a dangerous or critical task, spends his Luck and makes sure he doesn't auto fail. So, he can only auto fail when he runs out of Luck. Less than 1/100 times.

What is your personal opinion on how this could/should be translated (if at all) to 2077? Do you have a dog in this whole "RNG, no RNG, hybrid" discussion?

Also, the idea of critically failing to open a door is bloody hilarious.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Well, I -do- use them, as I said and there is a place to check for otherwise routine activities - under stress or ( if your GM is a bastard) out of pure bad luck. The latter should be quite rare but the former is a common check.

That's where you get comedy like people running madly from gunfire, jerking open the car door with their cyberarm, really blowing the check and ripping the handle clean off, also causing them to lose their balance and fall onto the oil and rain-slick pavement.

Scramble madly -under- the vehicle to escape the incoming rounds, only for their more agile pal who leapt-through the windshield to start the car and drive away..under speed...

Yep. Comedy gold.

Yes indeed. I would actually embrace it if that stuff got in the game... just suddenly tripping over in the middle of the street and getting run over, or doing some silly wall running trick and falling down. It's fun. Maybe I lost the momentum there, and maybe I have to reload because.... death... but it surprised me.

But seeing the few previous pages, how hard it is to accept these things... I think it might get a bit out of line to actually start seriously advocating for it.

Still... CDPR, any of you, if your reading. Take a note.

 

[Snowflakez]

Yes indeed. I would actually embrace it if that stuff got in the game... just suddenly tripping over in the middle of the street and getting run over, or doing some silly wall running trick and falling down. It's fun. Maybe I lost the momentum there, and maybe I have to reload because.... death... but it surprised me.

But seeing the few previous pages, how hard it is to accept these things... I think it might get a bit out of line to actually start seriously advocating for it.

Still... CDPR, any of you, if your reading. Take a note.

It is funny to talk about, but I think you'd find it not to be so funny in a serious PnP campaign.

I'm not sure how story-driven Sard's campaigns are, or how his relationship to the players is (antagonistic versus cooperative), but in even the "hardcore" and dangerous campaigns I've played, that sort of stuff would be really crappy. We don't mind our characters dying to bad rolls (pit of spikes is classic), bad strategy, or poor planning, but seriously, tripping on a crack and dying in the street is probably something our DM would fudge, or he just wouldn't make us roll for something like that at all.

Of course, my campaigns are also longer-term stories where we develop a connection to our characters, not so much a "welp, just re-roll and we'll move on in a few minutes" thing.

EDIT: Sorry, you were referring to the game, not PnPs. I missed a couple words there.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

It is funny to talk about, but I think you'd find it not to be so funny in a serious PnP campaign.

Actually, I've done it. We also ran a campaign once (not 2020, though) where we included a cycling skill (which was very low for me). It was hilarious trying to escape some baddies and constantly tripping over. I don't know why I kept trying, the situation was tense and I didn't think straight (also, running wasn't quite fast enough). "Shit! Shit! Shit! Stay upright you piece of motherfucking shit! At least for ten meters! Nooooo! Not again!" I don't remember how I managed to escape, but I did.

I'm not sure how story-driven Sard's campaigns are, or how his relationship to the players is (antagonistic versus cooperative), but in even the "hardcore" and dangerous campaigns I've played, that sort of stuff would be really crappy. We don't mind our characters dying to bad rolls (pit of spikes is classic), bad strategy, or poor planning, but seriously, tripping on a crack and dying in the street is probably something our DM would fudge, or he just wouldn't make us roll for something like that at all.

Of course, my campaigns are also longer-term stories where we develop a connection to our characters, not so much a "welp, just re-roll and we'll move on in a few minutes" thing.

There is a time for focused seriousness, stressful events and problemsolving, but ultimately these games are about having fun. A serious narrative arch filled with tense and straightfaced situations is fine and fun to have, but the rules are there for a reason and, because they work how they work, can cause uplifting moments even in events of distress. That should be embraced, not discarded, the experience is all the more memorable for it; these unforseen events that might occur in mundane situations.

What ever the accepted intent of the campaign is, though, that should be of course be respected and not made into a gagreel if that doesn't fit.

In any event, just saying.

 

[Sardukhar]

I don't have a dog in the RNG/Gate fight, mostly because I'm pretty sure CDPR will go with what seems most fun to them after lots of testing. I'd bet on gated though. Why? They have the same attitude about not allowing you to go Cyberpsycho. I love CDPR, but they are definitely invested in happy players.

I prefer interested, engaged and challenged players. That seems to make them happy - although sometimes it's after the fact.

"You....you...OOOOOH! That means that...OOOHHH! I HATE you sometimes!" Was expressed after our Cthulhu one shot last week. Loudly.

Not sure CDPR wants that response and so, clearly gated by your skill. If that.

 

[Rawls]

You aren't going to crit fail opening your car door, as the corebook points out.

You pull the door handle. CRIT FAIL. The mob placed a bomb under your car and it explodes. Roll for dodge (difficulty 30).

 

[Sardukhar]

You pull the door handle. CRIT FAIL. The mob placed a bomb under your car and it explodes. Roll for dodge (difficulty 30).

Can't dodge explosions in Cyberpunk. Or bullets. This ain't Shadowrun, brah.

Although technically you do get a save when under suppressing fire..

 

[Rawls]

Can't dodge explosions in Cyberpunk. Or bullets. This ain't Shadowrun, brah.

Yeah but it was funnier to put in a roll statement at the end. I actually debated putting it in. Here we are.

 

[Sardukhar]

Yeah but it was funnier to put in a roll statement at the end. I actually debated putting it in. Here we are.

Can't debate in Cyberpunk. Or state. This ain't Shadowrun, brah.

Although technically there -is- the Oratory skill....wanna orate with me?

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

There should be a certain amount of random for two reasons:

1. That's life, kids. Cpunk is based on realism and luck is realistic. Good and bad. Yes , yes I know, videogames are all about empowering you in contrast to the harshness that is real life blah blah. Weakness. Go back to the elves and singing birds. This is Cyberpunk.

2. Skill is no guarantee of success at a task. It's literally in the corebook and it sums up an important part of the Cyberpunk ethos, which is always partly a tragedy no matter how well you planned: "Even the best of us screws up sometimes. Even You. - The Management." Under the section discussing critical fails, appropriately.

It's a small chance, but, yes, electricians screw up on breakers - or the breaker is faulty. I've done it, yep, even though I knew exactly what to do. I make mistakes driving - I'm a licensed and decades-experienced professional driver. My wife, a trained paramedic, can tell you horror stories. Our friends - carpenters, soldiers, cops, doctors, EMTs - highly trained people, they all make mistakes, some of them really really bad ones. And sometimes we don't make mistakes and fail anyway and are frustrated and baffled.

Sometimes the dice just go another way. That's life.

The point of skills is to minimize that happening - and more importantly in critical situations, to have back-up solutions.

Every pro fails - the good ones expect and plan for it.

Just that IRL bad luck is not quite as much as in games.
1 time out of ten to screw up is laughable.
Even 1 time out of 100 would be still far too much for easier rolls.

Post automatically merged: Oct 25, 2018

I don't have a dog in the RNG/Gate fight, mostly because I'm pretty sure CDPR will go with what seems most fun to them after lots of testing. I'd bet on gated though. Why? They have the same attitude about not allowing you to go Cyberpsycho. I love CDPR, but they are definitely invested in happy players.

When it comes to social interactions, my bet is on no skills at all, only some stats checks at best for special action like drawing your gun swiftly and shoot in the middle of an heated situation, or using cool to avoid speaking while being tortured, but that's about the size of it.

That would explain the lack of social stats too.

 

[Suhiira]

There's probably a middle ground here, and I think Sigi may have hit on it. Auto-success or failure at low or high enough skill levels, RNG for the middle. Perhaps not ideal for either party, but such is the nature of compromise.

Many games have "critical" successes and failures, no matter how good, or bad, you are there's always a chance. Some games however take this to extremes, say 5-10% of all rolls are crit successes/failures. This is one reason I convert many games to d100 and use '1' and "100" as my crits.

 

[Sardukhar]

When it comes to social interactions, my bet is on no skills at all, only some stats checks at best for special action like drawing your gun swiftly and shoot in the middle of an heated situation, or using cool to avoid speaking while being tortured, but that's about the size of it.

That would explain the lack of social stats too.

Yep, I'd agree with this.

 

[Rawls]

Although technically there -is- the Oratory skill....wanna orate with me?

Sure. Cool stat 7. Oratory skill 6. D10 Roll = 3 (blast).

 

[Sardukhar]

Sure. Cool stat 7. Oratory skill 6. D10 Roll = 3 (blast).

Hey that's Average difficulty +1.

I'm convinced of your words.

Or I would be, if I didn't know you better. -5.

So, fail.

 

[Snowflakez]

I feel so much better when the mods are the ones to go off topic.

 

[Suhiira]

Yep, I'd agree with this.

Unfortunately it's about what I expect as well.