Mechanical Faithfulness to Cyberpunk 2020...

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From the original announcement of the game, CDPR had been adamant that the games mechanics will remain faithful to the Cyberpunk 2020 PNP game upon which it was based. Visually, the game is spot-on, 100%, a perfect adaptation. In terms of, looks, sounds, fell, and atmosphere, the execution is flawless.

Mechanically however, after watching the game play video, as beautiful as it was, I can't really spot a single mechanic that seemed faithful to the PNP upon which it based. Just a short list of things that seem to have missed the mark... (please understand, I am posting these criticisms here and now, in hopes these things can be changed before release to achieve the desired faithfulness to the PNP mechanics)

Clothing, weapons, and items being "level" dependent. This is a poor mechanic, i disliked it in The Witcher games as well. This is not present in the Cyberpunk 2020 PNP at all. The only levels in the original PNP game are skill levels, between 1-10, and they only determine how good you are at any given task, they do not, in any way, EVER, prevent you from owning or using anything. In the pnp, anyone can wear or use anything they can get their hands on.​
Weapon Damage being being effected by level, by items, etc... Again, in the original PNP, there are no levels other than skill, and the ONLY thing that determines or effects damage is the caliber of ammunition itself, which is a set number unaffected the weapon firing it. Specialty ammunition can change the damage dynamic slightly, but outside of a process called "electrothermal enhancement" (ridiculously expensive, requires special ammo, and dangerous to the user) there are no mods that will effect the damage of a weapon. The idea of clothing or even cyber having any effect on weapon damage is not present at all in the PNP RPG and it should not be here. This is not dungeons and dragons where you get a plus one banana hammock shooting with extra damage against gang members ;).​

Also, and this a more minor nitpick, the idea of "epic weapons". You can call it rare, and limit it's appearances in the game, but calling it "epic" has different implications.​
Health of either Player Characters or NPC's increasing with "levels". And again, this mechanic is completely absent in the PNP game. In fact, this is the mot popular feature of the PNP game and what sets it apart from all other RPG's. Combat is lethal and fast. Everyone has the same, relatively small, amount of health. This amount of health does not change. A 16 year old kid and a hard core special forces combat vet both die from a single shot to the head or getting stabbed in the heart.​
Armor only protects what it covers. In the original PNP, armor is not magical, if your limbs aren't covered by armor, expect them to get blown off or maimed. If your head or face isn't covered by armor, expect me to aim at it for the instant kill... There are no magic force fields. Yes, you can get skinweave and subdermal armor, but getting it high enough to withstand more than a single medium caliber attack drastically alters your appearance, and even then it's not super armor.​
Other things that have been drastically changed.... The stats are wrong, though they are more in line with V3 and fusion, Cyberpunk 2020 uses Interlock. Lifepath seems to be extremely simplified (which I get, but is still disappointing), The limits on Roles (which, again, I get, but again is disappointing)​
Watching the video, I could not identify anything, mechanically, as being a faithful representation of Cyberpunk 2020 rules'. Did anyone else see anything I missed that drastically differed from the source rules? Did anyone notice a mechanic that WAS faithful to the source material?

I truly, truly, hope I am wrong, that I am misunderstanding or misinterpreting things, or that if I am right, that pointing these things out, now, while the game is still in development, allows them to address these issues. I am making these observations not out of malice, but out of love for the original property and unbridled excitement for this ridiculously ambitious endeavor CDPR has undertaken. I have faith in CDPR. I am 46, I have been playing video games since Pong, I have been playing Cyberpunk 2020 since 89/90. I am HEAVILY invested here guys, and am more excited about this game than any other video game in history.

May the road rise to you...
 
Quality post. I can not even contribute anything except maybe that it is CP2077 and some things can be changed a bit to show progress, but not to become another TW3 with immortal dogs.
 
So far from the gameplay demo I didn't see any clothing items being lvl dependent. V uses everything she picks up. For weapons, there were stats for them. But I don't know if the damage for those were affected by V's stats at all. I agree that a shot to the head or heart should result in a 1 hit kill, unless the individual has some type of subdermal facial armor. But about everyone having relatively the same amount of health; well yes and no. Some people can take more pain or damage than others in real life. i.e. a 16 year old boy couldn't take a beating like a seasoned soldier could, so there is a difference. Even body size plays a role, i.e. men on average have more blood volume. Plus we also see dismemberment in the trailer when V blows off legs, arms, and heads. I really saw a lot of these points met in the trailer IMO.
 
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Are they? Looking at the stats and stuff for the weapons I didn't see any levels listed (at least for the jacket and shotgun). The smart gun says "type 41" but I don't think type = level. I could just be missing it though.

I swear I heard more than one playtester mention that some items were level dependent. As I said, I cold be wrong, I want to be wrong, but a couple of these were dudes I talked to personally.

But about everyone having relatively the same amount of health; well yes and no. Some people can take more pain or damage than others in real life. i.e. a 16 year old boy couldn't take a beating like a seasoned soldier could, so there is a difference. Even body size plays a role, i.e. men on average have more blood volume. Plus we also see dismemberment in the trailer when V blows off legs, arms, and heads. I really saw a lot of these points met in the trailer IMO.

The seasoning of the soldier versus that of the boy, and the beating they take, and how they take it, has zero to do with their health, age, or general combat experience.

Body Type Modifier covers that difference with a very slight reduction in the amount of damage you take from a wound.

The legs being blown off is from a special weapon, there doesn't seen to be any discernible effect from the smaller caliber weapons. And the limbs being blown off just seems to be pretty much an instant kill.

Also, you don't really seem to be debating on whether they were accurate to the original PNP rules, which is the point of the thread.
 
Are they? Looking at the stats and stuff for the weapons I didn't see any levels listed (at least for the jacket and shotgun). The smart gun says "type 41" but I don't think type = level. I could just be missing it though.

Yes, I've checked that as well, and it's not the case..at least from what they've shown.

They've cycled through a few weapons in the demo ( 4, I think?), from common to epic, and they have a horizontal variation based on secondary stats/firing mods, but not levels ( or use them for requirement)...DPS goes from 79 to 90.

Also, and this a more minor nitpick, the idea of "epic weapons". You can call it rare, and limit it's appearances in the game, but calling it "epic" has different implications.

Agree on this. It's not Diablo. Or Borderlands. You put this much effort into creating immersive, authentic world and..this? Why? Please replace it with something more sensible, like: standard, high grade, military and prototypes ( one of a kind weapon in gameworld).


Armor only protects what it covers. In the original PNP, armor is not magical, if your limbs aren't covered by armor, expect them to get blown off or maimed. If your head or face isn't covered by armor, expect me to aim at it for the instant kill... There are no magic force fields. Yes, you can get skinweave and subdermal armor, but getting it high enough to withstand more than a single medium caliber attack drastically alters your appearance, and even then it's not super armor.

I agree ( for armor), but that really depends on how gameplay is designed.
Actually electromagnetic force fields are scientific possibility today, so I see no problem with it. They need to add a visual effect though ( instead of just blue bar shrinking).
 
Also, you don't really seem to be debating on whether they were accurate to the original PNP rules, which is the point of the thread.
I think the point here is that the game is an adaptation of a PnP game, but some things (like the level of the player/npc) must be "adapted" to a video game.
 
(like the level of the player/npc) must be "adapted" to a video game.
Honestly, going from PnP to PC game is a big improvement that already cover some mechanics by default. For example — random number generators and actual physics.
 
Um ... I think I explained myself really bad because english is not my mother tongue ... :cry:

What I mean is that some feature, like main character/npc levels, are essential in a videogame of this kind. Not only "genre wise", but also for balacing the progression of the player. I don't think it's possible to rely only on skills level, like in the PnP.
 
Honestly, going from PnP to PC game is a big improvement that already cover some mechanics by default. For example — random number generators and actual physics.
Really? The PnP game was and still is fantastic. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out the maths and with the right group is more immersive than a video game.
 
Um ... I think I explained myself really bad because english is not my mother tongue ... :cry:

What I mean is that some feature, like main character/npc levels, are essential in a videogame of this kind. Not only "genre wise", but also for balacing the progression of the player. I don't think it's possible to rely only on skills level, like in the PnP.

I understood you just fine, and I am saying you are wrong. Level and hit point based progression is completely unnecessary, and completely out of linr with the source material. Plenty of games don't use levels, and they get on just fine.

Using levels would ignore what made the pnp game mechanically popular in the first place. What would be the point of claiming to adapt Cyberpunk 2020 rules if they ignored what made the games rules unique in the first place?
 
Um ... I think I explained myself really bad because english is not my mother tongue ... :cry:

What I mean is that some feature, like main character/npc levels, are essential in a videogame of this kind. Not only "genre wise", but also for balacing the progression of the player. I don't think it's possible to rely only on skills level, like in the PnP.

Levels themselves aren't an issue ( except for breaking Immersion), but how it works in different type of game.

Let's say you want to design a 10 hour long mostly linear rpg.
You have player A who does everything there is in the game and ends up with level 10 .
And player B who only does the main story/minimum and ends up as level 6.
And with each level, of player or equipment, all base stats improve.

It's much easier to balance the game ( and all systems, like economy, encounters, etc) for both, as there is not really that great difference between overall "character power" ( for lack of better world). So you don't really need to come up with balancing counterparts for player progression like: "gate equipment", level scale opponents, etc.

That's why similar vertical progression from Witcher III, actually worked in Witcher 1 and 2...they were far smaller, shorter games.

But when you have an open world game of massive scale ( like this), in quantity of content, what you end up with:

Poor design for Player character:

Player stats hyperinflate faster than Venezuelan currency, due to auto increase on every level up and abundance of passive buffs ( and open world games have many levels)

Wrong Solution: Level scale enemies.

Result: Pointless character progression ( as everything is tied to you) and nonsensical encounters (half naked bandits as hitpoint sponges)

Instead:

Let player base stats remain the same throughout the game, unless you use cyber enhancements ( that prevents you from gaining something else, as trade off)

Design progression around what player can do instead of buffing his/her stats. Your superfast/agile cyberninja still has to be careful and smart in every encounter, as the world feels dangerous from start to finish.

Counter player progression with Strong enemy and encounter design: Better AI, better equipment, higher numbers of opponents, more "difficult" environment ( from security, reinforcements, alarm, surveilance, etc).

Poor design for equipment

Like the player, gear stats increased based on level..

Result: Broken economy, as player amasses and sells too much useless gear. Gameplay is less tactical/interesting as only DPS/Damage reduction really matters.

Wrong Fix: Level gate Equipment ( Nonsensical and counter intuitive). Level scale loot drops ( Makes exploration less rewarding). Nonsensical bartering rates and artificial expenses to try and fix economy ( but never actually works, in a game of this size).

Instead:

Less quantity, but more handplaced loot/gear, appropriate to risk(danger)/reward.
Divide gear into different fundamental categories, so each provides tactical advantage in certain situation.
Gear with better stats are less customizable, so player has more options.
Top tier gear is more specialized, rare and expensive.
Use grid and encumbrance system to prevent hoarding ( and broken economy), upp the quest rewards so money you gain actually feels valuable.

As a whole: player/gear progression is more rewarding in how much it offers when it comes to experimentation of different playstyles, abilities and skills, and customizing/synergizing your equipment for it, than watching your base stats hyperinflate throughout the game.

I think, in general, the main culprit is in developers seeing games like Diablo or Borderlands (or many MMO's), which are designed to addict the player to grind and power gaming, and not understanding that this design is completely incompatible with single player, narrative driven, immersive rpgs ( where gameplay rules have to feel derived from the actual setting).

Virtually anyone I know that played the game agree that Witcher III would've been better without levels of any kind in the game, and more horizontal progression system on both ends...CDPR, please don't repeat the same mistake again.
 
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Virtually anyone I know that played the game agree that Witcher III would've been better without levels of any kind in the game, and more horizontal progression system on both ends...CDPR, please don't repeat the same mistake again.

This, a thousand times.

I played Witcher 3 with a level 100 savegame from the Nexus in NG+ with enemy upscaling. It was brilliant: now every enemy was about 5 levels above mine, all the armor sets were equivalent (e.g. a choice fully based on playstyle and taste), and the world opened up. I noticed how there even were dialog lines for going to Skellige first, before even touching Velen and Novigrad. It was non-linear again.

Levels in the d&d style don't make any sense in an RPG like Cyberpunk. They were not even in the 2020 pen and paper game. They exist because so many RPG series were built on tabletop and pen and paper games with levels - The mechanic made sense in games like Baldur's Gate, totally - in any way. But they have to be questioned when it comes to open world games, and especially Cyberpunk where we have so many ways to show progression (Augments!) without having to rely on the level mechanic.

Come on, CDPR: be bold and make an RPG without levels.
 
I dont know if its too late or not to scratch the level thing tbh. I would also like to see it go but you know
 
Борис, ты не прав. (c)

At 9:47 minute mark of the original 48 minute demo video you can see a pistol with some familiar stats slapped on it. Accuracy, Rate of Fire. Damage now merged with Number of Shots to slap DPS onto it sinc the video game is real time and not turn-based, Availabily. The last one resulted into an excuse to add some WoW-esque le ebic/legendary gear and so "categories" were skewed and "Rare" is now not literally "Rare" as it was in CP2020. But it's there from PnP.

Too bad reliability is missing and the game does not track is the gun is concealable. The hell is PNT I don't know.

About armor you are right, it's totally misses the mark in representing the PnP mechanic. It only provides linear damage reducing against a certain kind of damage. Needs a rework.
 
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