Mechanical Faithfulness to Cyberpunk 2020...

[kofeiiniturpa]

That's why everyone thinks about turnbased classic RPG. Your scepsis is that huge

I’m just looking at how things have gone with other similiar-esque titles.

Deus Ex went for more shooter combat the second it could, the nuFallouts went to be more and more shooters with each subsequent game (starting already with PoS) even when their systems didn’t do much in the first place. Alpha Protocol and VtMB didn’t get sequels, but were both scorned for doing combat the way that’s been asked for here (and so did the afore mentioned series’; that’s why they changed).

That is CDPR now can't make their biggest game for niche audience. They make AAA games now, so no turning back. It obvious yes.

The point isn’t to make an ISO/TB or niche game, but to notice that people can handle combat other that shooter and more complex and systems driven gameplay.

Anyways, this is an uphill battle that I'm not sure can be won.

 

[Harthwain]

And besides, anything that breaks the popular trend today can be called innovative. It really is that bad.

Isn't innovation about introducing something new, thus breaking the popular trend (which is all about doing the same thing over and over again)?

The Divinity: Original Sin series is also a good example of the popularity of complexity -- although not a very good example here since it, too, is ISO/TB.

It's a good example, because it proves that ISO + TB (RPG) game can be successful. It's mostly the matter of doing it in a way that will cause people to like it for what it is. Same goes for translating the rules of CP2020 into a video game.

Oh... and The Surge is just an assemblyline produced 3rd person hack'n slash. Just like all "Souls-esque" games that've been coming out from doors and windows and chimneys in the past few years. I've come to loathe that type of game.

Well, it is a good game for people who like Souls-like games, and it did a good job at introducing its own, unique sci-fi setting. And it's getting a sequel, which means there is a market for these kind of games. I am noting this, because we wouldn't have known [about it] if it hadn't have been for the unexpected success of Dark Souls.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Isn't innovation about introducing something new, thus breaking the popular trend (which is all about doing the same thing over and over again)?


It's a good example, because it proves that ISO + TB (RPG) game can be successful. It's mostly the matter of doing it in a way that will cause people to like it for what it is. Same goes for translating the rules of CP2020 into a video game.


Well, it is a good game for people who like Souls-like games, and it did a good job at introducing its own, unique sci-fi setting. And it's getting a sequel, which means there is a market for these kind of games. I am noting this, because we wouldn't have known [about it] if it hadn't have been for the unexpected success of Dark Souls.

No argument on any of these, really.

I mentioned the ”innovation” thing to underline that there really has been none in the past several years in FPS’ or AAA RPG’s (at least as far as mechanics go).

Dark Souls was kind of trendsetter. But mostly for the unusual difficulty it offered (in the age of handholding). Gothic did kind of the same thing nearly 20 years ago, but didn’t set any trends other than the ”cult following” it got.

 

[Suhiira]

Idea of Su is clear, he does describe it pretty clear, not too different from VATS in basics. He said about details but doesn't talk much about them.

I've commented on the design/implementation in detail a couple times, and I'm not going to waste everybodys time doing so again because someone hasn't read those posts.

Yeah, it's basically a upgraded variant of VATS.
NOT a direct copy, so any comments about how well/badly Bethesda implemented VATS in Fallout are immaterial.

 

[Snowflakez]

I've commented on the design/implementation in detail a couple times, and I'm not going to waste everybodys time doing so again because someone hasn't read those posts.

Yeah, it's basically a upgraded variant of VATS.
NOT a direct copy, so any comments about how well/badly Bethesda implemented VATS in Fallout are immaterial.

The more I think about it, the more that idea grows on me. And I really think FPS players would actually enjoy it, too.

I love the idea of jumping into the air, running on a wall, turning to look at enemies on the ground, pausing the game, only to unleash an epic spray of bullets (Which may or may not hit their target). Weaving mobility with RPG combat in a way that's never been done before. Even Fallout's VATS was quite clunky in terms of its execution, and it slowing down the game prevented the player from doing anything except sit there and let ghouls run up and smack them in the face.

If CDPR could somehow make it so you could move while this system is active, that'd be awesome.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

One (of the) thing(s) that iff me with what we currently know of the game, is the notion that primary stats limit skills to their level and that level-ups provide statpoints (I do remember perks being mentioned in this context too, and would guess that you gain a statpoint every second level and a perk every other second).

Why is it like this? The stats are supposed to complement the skills, not limit them. A low REF ”sharpshooter” or a low INT ”hacker” should be possible to make. And whilst they should never be as good as their ”10/10” counterparts, they should have their moments in providing occupational knowledge that lower skill levels don’t possess despite higher governing attribute. This system just reeks too much of Fallout 4’s horrid perk chart.

At most, if there had to be levels and stat gates, I’d put in a soft gate at the stat above which the speed of skill improvement decreases according to how much higher it goes... 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 of the normal speed, and so forth with every point above stat level. Or something to that effect.

Ultimately, though... I’d forget stat/skill gating altogether, and have the game built over fixed difficulty (difficulty settings affecting character creation and progression... but that’s another story...) so that you wouldn’t need to keep track of the players advancement and simply let him roll the ways he can at any given time. Don’t shy away from there being a bit of trial and error and ”I can’t manage here, perhaps I’ll have to come back later” mentality.

Have the player choose his initial stats wisely and make their increments hard (cyberware and possibly few perks). Turn the statpoints from level-ups into fixed (or based on the difficulty of the mission) amount of IP’s which the player can then save for later or buy skill levels with (not stats) as per their level-based cost (level number times ten) and complement that with the learn-through-use system that would gradually decrease the cost of the skill level (eventually of course reaching and going over the line and jumping to the next skill level). Throw in the perks at every second or third level-up (maybe offer an opportunity to increase every stat once among other perks).

And for an addenum... make the stats actually affect the skills they govern in practice one way or another.

I would think that’s much more in line with the nature of the PnP (even with the levels) and mechanically more interesting to play with.

Less gamey gates (and that... also for the skilltests... they don’t need it, there are better and much much more interesting ways to do them).

 

[Poison19]

To be fair, we don't actually know anything about character progression. Only what, that the game will have levels. And stats.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

To be fair, we don't actually know anything about character progression.

Sure we do.

Read and learn:

https://forums.cdprojektred.com/ind...om-2018-edition.10979804/page-2#post-11096951

Philipp Weber:
...we have classical attributes where you get experience and you can level up and then spend those points on attributes like strength and so on. ...

Kyle Rowley:
...Skills have levels that you gain by doing actions. So the more I use a long gun, the more I get good at long guns. They are gated by attributes, so a certain attribute level is needed to gain a certain skill. ...

They also mention that, like many other things, this too is still a work in progress

Spoiler: From the same link

Kyle Rowley:
The general progression system is very much a work in progress. The way it works now is that...

which is why I’m posting these things.

 

[Rawls]

To be fair, we don't actually know anything about character progression. Only what, that the game will have levels. And stats

You can also check - https://forums.cdprojektred.com/ind...cial-demo-walkthrough.10983188/#post-11134175 Specifically the second post has lots of info and references to skill progression. There's also a fair amount of info gunplay, skill checks, and basically everything we observe throughout the demo supplemented by interviews with CDPR devs.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Sure we do.

Read and learn:

https://forums.cdprojektred.com/ind...om-2018-edition.10979804/page-2#post-11096951



They also mention that, like many other things, this too is still a work in progress

Spoiler: From the same link

Kyle Rowley:
The general progression system is very much a work in progress. The way it works now is that...

which is why I’m posting these things.

Stats gate skills?
WTF?!

Also, hope those skills doesn't start at zero, that we have points in it from the start, because playing a mercenary who doesn't know anything seems weird to say the least.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Stats gate skills?
WTF?!

WTF indeed.

I proposed an alternative. Wheter or not CDPR grabs it, I do hope they come to another solution before locking things down too much.

 

[Rawls]

Also, hope those skills doesn't start at zero, that we have points in it from the start, because playing a mercenary who doesn't know anything seems weird to say the least.

Every skill we saw in the demo (which was only 2 I will grant you) had at least 1 point in it. I think it's likely we start at 1 instead of 0.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Every skill we saw in the demo (which was only 2 I will grant you) had at least 1 point in it. I think it's likely we start at 1 instead of 0.

I mean, we are creating a character, we can choose him some sort of edge to start with, something he is good at, no?
Without that you feel like average joe getting a change of job for mercenary.

 

[Rawls]

I mean, we are creating a character, we can choose him some sort of edge to start with, something he is good at, no?
Without that you feel like average joe getting a change of job for mercenary.

We didn't see a skill options screen or role options screen in the character creator in the demo. We've heard conflicting info on whether you choose a role at the begging as a starting point and then it's fluid, or if it's 100% fluid all the way. A few previews said something like:

"The role you choose at the start of the game define your initial strengths and weaknesses, but you can customi[z]e your abilities as your progress through the campaign, mixing elements from each archetype without restricting your role. So you may start life as a solo but become a mostly techie-based build by the game’s conclusion, or develop into a multi-talented hybrid who can do a little of everything." https://www.pcgamesn.com/cyberpunk-2077/cyberpunk-2077-classes THIS IS FROM A GAMING JOURNALIST, NOT A DEV.

However, Kyle Rowley has said "Now at the start of the game we don't actually have any classes that you pick from," Rowley explained. "Obviously in Cyberpunk 2020 there's lots of different roles you can take on: corporate, rocker boy, netrunner, techie, etc. At the start of the game you're not picking any of those classes. As you're progressing through the game you're modifying and adjusting your class based on the attributes that you pick and decide to install. So it's a very fluid system, we don't lock you in at the start of the game."

Discussion about V's role and character creation starts around 2:20 into video. The actual quote above is around 3:20.

Miles Tost also talked about it here from start to around 1:55:

There's also a real good discussion about gameplay and how skills interplay with combat here:

Goes from about 5:10 to 9:25.

If forced to choose I'll go with the game devs statement over the statement of a couple media outlets which could just be confused. It could be we start as a blank slate at the start. It could be we get to level a few skills at the beginning either manually, or based on the lifepath and stats we've chosen. We really don't know yet how it works in detail based on the conflict in information.

 

[Mebrilia]

Pretty much like take something that used to distinquish cyberpunk 2020 from other pen and paper or rpg system and trow it out from the window to generalize and remake a progression system similiar to other rpgs around sounds like a wasted opportunity to me.

 

[Rawls]

Pretty much like take something that used to distinquish cyberpunk 2020 from other pen and paper or rpg system and trow it out from the window to generalize and remake a progression system similiar to other rpgs around sounds like a wasted opportunity to me.

I'm not even sure what you're referring to here. It's a blended system using (1) stat progression, (2) skill progression through successfully completing actions, (3) perk progression though investing points earned from XP and/or street cred, (4) cyberware to create new systems and abilities, and (6) gear (including at least weapons, armor, medicines, grenades, etc) to grant additional bonuses and abilities. That's more complex than most action RPGs I've played. It's definitely more complex than TW3 progression system.

Sounds very much like:

Or if must be closer to a shooter... A stat based sistem one like the one of new vegas based on skills and stats

 

[walkingdarkly]

Holy Geebus...after seeing those interviews...I'm losing some serious faith here...I see two to three different explanations that vary so wildly it's like they're talking about two different games, none of which is what Cyberpunk is or has been with concerns to the table top from my perspective.

 

[Rawls]

I see two to three different explanations that vary so wildly it's like they're talking about two different games, none of which is what Cyberpunk is or has been with concerns to the table top from my perspective.

What differences are you referring to? Together they confirm stats, skills, perks, cyberware and gear. Three different roles (Solo, Techie, Netrunner) that result in fluid class system with four different ways approach a level (strong solo, fast solo, techie, or netrunner).

 

[walkingdarkly]

You had the one fellow state that we will choose a role at the beginning of the game and we'll go through the game being the best at that role or going hybrid. While the other dev contradicts his fellow dev by stating we won't choose a role, we start the game a full blank slate and we'll be that way throughout just picking skills like this is elder scrolls almost.

That's what I'm getting from the two interviews.

 

[Rawls]

The first quote is from a journalist, not a Dev. What I was saying is we've heard both things, but that I think the second version (which is what both Miles Tost and Kyle Rowley are saying) is more likely.