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Melee combat, please have depth and make it just as engaging as the fps gameplay.

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Mobster100

User
In games where there are guns like in Fallout, I usually prefer to use them over melee weapons. Which is mostly because I don't think there are really any game out there able to really make it interesting, it always feel either a bit clunky like in Kingdom come or as in Fallout / Skyrim where its a bit to much hack and slash. I think TW3 had an ok system, but this is obviously 3rd person combat. However the two things I really didn't like in TW3 combat is that after a while, you notice you can fight on the edge of where the enemies will stop hunting you, which is actually not very far away from where they are hanging out. That to me ruins the immersion a little bit, because its very obvious when you reach the edge of the area where they all run back. The second thing is when you fight multiple enemies they are often very passive, where some of them will more or less just stand there and wait for their turn to attack, even if they have a very good chance of hitting you. But guess that is done to give the player a chance.

But anyway, I can see how FP melee combat can be hard to make in a good way, So I just hope they come up with a new exciting way of doing it. But exactly how to do it, Im not sure. But maybe a mixture of Kingdom come and Skyrim, so you can attack from different directions like in Kingdom come, but faster as in Skyrim.
 

Snowflakez

User
In games where there are guns like in Fallout, I usually prefer to use them over melee weapons. Which is mostly because I don't think there are really any game out there able to really make it interesting, it always feel either a bit clunky like in Kingdom come or as in Fallout / Skyrim where its a bit to much hack and slash. I think TW3 had an ok system, but this is obviously 3rd person combat. However the two things I really didn't like in TW3 combat is that after a while, you notice you can fight on the edge of where the enemies will stop hunting you, which is actually not very far away from where they are hanging out. That to me ruins the immersion a little bit, because its very obvious when you reach the edge of the area where they all run back. The second thing is when you fight multiple enemies they are often very passive, where some of them will more or less just stand there and wait for their turn to attack, even if they have a very good chance of hitting you. But guess that is done to give the player a chance.
Get the Ghost Mode mod for TW3. Trust me. It will solve your problems.
 

jervi

User
... after a while, you notice you can fight on the edge of where the enemies will stop hunting you, which is actually not very far away from where they are hanging out. That to me ruins the immersion a little bit, because its very obvious when you reach the edge of the area where they all run back. The second thing is when you fight multiple enemies they are often very passive, where some of them will more or less just stand there and wait for their turn to attack, even if they have a very good chance of hitting you.
That's one reason I think some of the older games have an edge over a lot of newer games. Sure, graphics are pretty and calculating the physics on every single movable object remotely near your character (even those that are invisible due to occlusion) is cool and all, but some games get so wrapped up in that that they forget things like how to make the AI think, or have it remember what it was doing well enough to chase you across several cells. I don't much care if the reflections on the ripples on that mudpuddle in the corner are rendered accurately nearly as much as I care about stuff that actually affects gameplay.
 

Mobster100

User
Get the Ghost Mode mod for TW3. Trust me. It will solve your problems.
I don't know that mod, but will check it out should I pick up TW3 again, its not that long ago I finished it so next time I might try using some mods. Thanks for that.

That's one reason I think some of the older games have an edge over a lot of newer games. Sure, graphics are pretty and calculating the physics on every single movable object remotely near your character (even those that are invisible due to occlusion) is cool and all, but some games get so wrapped up in that that they forget things like how to make the AI think, or have it remember what it was doing well enough to chase you across several cells. I don't much care if the reflections on the ripples on that mudpuddle in the corner are rendered accurately nearly as much as I care about stuff that actually affects gameplay.
I agree with you on that, I enjoy good graphics, but as you its not what make or breaks a game for me. Hell I really enjoy Dwarf fortress :D And I fully understand that they can't have monster following you to the end of the world, so there obviously need to be some limitations etc. And im not even sure its the AI thats the problem when talking FP melee combat as much as its the controls themselves thats the issue. Because using guns feels very natural when using a mouse and keyboard, even bows works, as you point and click, which is very "close" to how you would expect a real gun to work. But with a melee weapon there is not really any device that simulate what you would expect from a real object, I mean you have those sensor things like to the Wii, but I could only imagine how annoying it would be to play a RPG with all the other things that is part of that experience, like the rest of UI, inventory etc. So "porting" the feeling of using a melee weapon to a mouse and keyboard or controller so it sort of feels natural, is probably the biggest problem as I see it and why I personally prefer to use range weapons over melee weapons.

So to make of for that, close combat need something more or to work differently than what normal games do today I think when talking FP, 3rd is not as bad, TW3 did a really good job at it I think.
 
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Sardukhar

Moderator
I dunno if this was posted here, but hey, because pen and paper is the root of this game and it because I just like saying pen and paper a lot, here are the Friday Night Firefight rules for Hand to hand combat and the Martial Arts tables.

As always, you can find a copy of the Corebook in PDF at DrivethruRPG or at R.Talsorian's store: https://talsorianstore.com/collections/cyberpunk/products/cyberpunk-2020

FNFF Melee 1.JPG


FNFF Melee 2.JPG

So you can see the pen and paper has a robust melee system. There are some flaws (Martial Arts damage at higher levels is way too high, melee doesn't add skill in to damage) but those are easily fixed and this system lets players hammer each other happily.


..phrasing.
 

Restlessdingo32

Junior Member
But with a melee weapon there is not really any device that simulate what you would expect from a real object, I mean you have those sensor things like to the Wii, but I could only imagine how annoying it would be to play a RPG with all the other things that is part of that experience, like the rest of UI, inventory etc. So "porting" the feeling of using a melee weapon to a mouse and keyboard or controller so it sort of feels natural, is probably the biggest problem as I see it and why I personally prefer to use range weapons over melee weapons.
Yep, it's hard to replicate realistic melee because most of what would go into it isn't really doable with KB/M. Balance, foot-work, when and how blows are delivered, deflecting hits, getting knocked over and actually taking a fight to the ground, etc. seem to get left out. Even if this stuff could be accounted for it would take a ridiculous amount of effort/resources to get it done in a natural way.

Hell, most RPG's arguably misrepresent melee weapon abilities too... Poor little 1d6 Quarterstaff vs a 1d8 Sword.... Doesn't make sense :).
 

Snowflakez

User
I think it's a pointless desire to expect "realistic" melee combat. Not gonna happen, not anytime soon.

The best you can get is believable melee combat. Combat that isn't so insanely over-the-top (at least, not when it isn't desirable for it to be so, like in Doom or God of War) that you can retain your suspension of disbelief and have fun.

Maybe someday we'll see truly realistic melee combat. But, honestly, I don't even know if I want that. Not in the majority of my games, anyway.
 

Hoplite_22

Tourist
I think it's a pointless desire to expect "realistic" melee combat. Not gonna happen, not anytime soon.

The best you can get is believable melee combat. Combat that isn't so insanely over-the-top (at least, not when it isn't desirable for it to be so, like in Doom or God of War) that you can retain your suspension of disbelief and have fun.

Maybe someday we'll see truly realistic melee combat. But, honestly, I don't even know if I want that. Not in the majority of my games, anyway.
I feel like the lack of "realistic" melee and even gun combat is more a limit of the interface (K&M, joypad etc) than mechanics. they don't have the granularity or intuitive control you have in RL and so anything that pushes to hard for realism ends up clunky and difficult to do anything with. Becoming a real detriment to a game rather than an improvement.
 

Mobster100

User
I think it's a pointless desire to expect "realistic" melee combat. Not gonna happen, not anytime soon.

The best you can get is believable melee combat. Combat that isn't so insanely over-the-top (at least, not when it isn't desirable for it to be so, like in Doom or God of War) that you can retain your suspension of disbelief and have fun.

Maybe someday we'll see truly realistic melee combat. But, honestly, I don't even know if I want that. Not in the majority of my games, anyway.
Just to clarify my point weren't that unless some device is made that can more correctly simulate melee combat, it will be bad. As you, I don't see that happening and not really sure it would actually work that well either. The issues is when doing FP melee combat, you are very close to your enemy and things happens fast, so it often end up in just smashing the attack button and your character hit the enemy. Which at least to me is not very exciting because it feels very random.

Maybe something simple would actually improve it, in most games where there are melee combat, you press a button and your character hit with there weapon and if the enemy is within range you hit them. But you rarely get the impression or feeling of impact I think, as you weapon just swing in front you you. its a bit hard to explain. But imagine you hit an enemy and your weapon is not instantly returned to the default position, but is rather stuck in the enemy where you hit them for a short time before being pulled out and returned. Maybe something like that would make melee combat feel more "realistic" or exciting.

And combining that with a sort of Hitman slowdown system might be fun as well, so as you swing your weapon time would briefly slow down, giving you time to aim better, not talking to a complete stand still, but something like that combined with the above idea might make it funnier. Rather than running into enemies just smashing the attack button or if its really fancy the Power attack button. :)