Melee combat, please have depth and make it just as engaging as the fps gameplay.

[syl81badsnake]

No i mean the dev have said it's not a mechanic in the game. neither is gang joining. it's not an option some one selected, it is something they are not putting in because this isn't a simulation of the PnP game. it's an adaptation of it.

here https://forums.cdprojektred.com/index.php?threads/current-developer-answers-to-your-cp-2077-questions.10970951/ read the quoted from the dev team answers in that. they explicitly rule those things out.

I'm extremely disappointed again by these developers. I want the freedom to run with a gang. I'm utterly and bitterly disgusted by the sheer lack of freedom here. I'm not going to rush out to get it or even wait anymore. What's the point? I'll just live my own RPG and ride my damn motorcycle to any gang I want IRL.

 

[Suhiira]

Nah. You just anchor them to a significant part of the skeleton (ribcage/pelvic bones) after reinforcing the entire skeleton with a mesh plating. Allows both for the skeleton to continue to do its normal job and still be superhuman.

On the other hand, that would be expensive as hell. Perhaps costly in humanity too.

Muscle & Bone Lace (CP2020 pg 85, 1,500 EB, 1-3 humanity loss)
Nanites weave synthetic threads thru the muscles and anchor them to the bones which are wrapped with more threads.
Adds +2 BODY (CP2077 is apparently splitting BODY into Strength and Constitution).

Only so much you can do without replacing the entire skeletal system, and as pointed out the blood cells the marrow produces are "kinda" important.

 

[Loostreaks]

People are hoping and wishing for a LOT. I wouldn't be surprised if you had one or two melee attacks. Switching stances and whatnot? I highly doubt it. It's probably meant for speed. I doubt they designed it so one single battle drags on. Probably just run up to a player and press a button to attack. Dishonored did it good. It was fast paced and it took some skill. But people are hoping for way way too much here and setting themselves up for dissapointment. As long as it's polished I'm fine with that.

You run up to a cyberpsycho, you both enter a stance and then his buddies stand around and watch as the two of you spar.

Like it or not, melee has to be direct and simple: gun combat is much more fast paced than traditional hack and slash.

But simple does not mean simplistic:

I'm hoping for implementation of Vanquish and MGR Zandatsu...when you perfectly block an attack, parry or do a movement maneuver when in enemy vicinity, you enter slow mo where you can manually direct your attacks: sever limbs, damage armor, etc.

Plus fast weapon switching: stagger someone with a hammer, than side step him and backstab with a dagger.

This would be good combination of control and style/speed.

 

[BaalNergal]

Muscle & Bone Lace (CP2020 pg 85, 1,500 EB, 1-3 humanity loss)
Nanites weave synthetic threads thru the muscles and anchor them to the bones which are wrapped with more threads.
Adds +2 BODY (CP2077 is apparently splitting BODY into Strength and Constitution).

Only so much you can do without replacing the entire skeletal system, and as pointed out the blood cells the marrow produces are "kinda" important.

Even if you could get around it with the right anchoring and mesh, there's still the limits of the cybernetics themselves. You can be superhuman, but not Superman.

 

[RLKing1969]

I think it's safe to say that 'super' abilities will be foreign to CP2077. While cybernetic augmentation will have an impact, to expect them to make you invincible is wrong. Even with augmentation NC is a dangerous place and there are people with the same or better augmentations that you need to be careful of. Physical abilities will be limited and if you jump from a place too high expect to do some serious harm to yourself.

Agreed. Cyberware should improve what you already have, not make you a "superhero." A fully cybered person should be able to perform some pretty impressive stunts...superhuman, some might say...But not "Supernatural". Even so, a full conversion 'borg would have to pay a very heavy price...BOTH in humanity AND in the realm of the financial.

 

[EngryEngineer]

CP2020 tries very hard to stick to the probable. Yes some stuff is pretty damn amazing. But nothing really reaches the fantasy stage.

Feel free to look up the whole bullet dodging thing on the internet ... ummm ... not the gamers and Hollywood parts, the parts the deal with real physics.

Sorry, I said feet, I meant 50 yards that was my mistake, but it is based on the findings that one of the unaugmented Mythbusters (Jamie) would have theoretically been able to dodge a bullet at 500 yards. Consequently, that same person with 1/10th reaction time provided by expanded & optimized neural pathways, musculature operating under a high reflex mode like the equivalent of the F-16's fly-by-wire system, &/or watching for a sign before the muzzle flash like the shooter's muscle movements would be able to theoretically dodge a bullet at 50 yards. Now assume that this individual is an edge runner who's attributes, before augmentation, are at or above Olympic athlete levels with practical experience facing gunfire & not just trying it out for the first time like Jamie was, how much more distance could they shave off?

I've seen runners take a rocket in CP2020, not well, but they were still breathing afterwards. The problem with "probable" when it comes to this level of speculation is that you can't actually run the probability, so "probable" just means believable and that's going to differ significantly from person to person. How many people in 1950 would think it "probable" that within 60 years you could have a computer with constant wireless connection to the internet, in your pocket over a thousand times more powerful than their building sized supercomputers at the time?

 

[atomowyturysta]

Kingdom Come is NOT a good example of making a good melee combat system. CP2077 needs fast, furious and easy to learn (yet challanging to master) system. KC system is difficult to learn, near impossible to master. Damn, real combat is easier than there

 

[EngryEngineer]

Actually we know now that augmentation will never do that. being strong enough to lift a car isn't a muscle limitation but a skeletal one, and we can't just change out our skeleton it performs vital immune system jobs, this extends all over to almost everything since it's an interconnected and interdependent system through out, a change to one part effects all of it.

Prosthetics will always have to be slightly weaker than our natural limbs to account for the imperfect join to the rest of the system.

You wouldn't need to swap out the skeleton to reinforce it, especially in a world that has nanites and such. You could lace a graphene (or some better 2070 metamaterial) matrix through the bones without affecting blood production and such. Additionally, they have gene therapy, optimized gland replacements, & again nanites, it is possible they could compensate for the loss of bone if they were full on replacing the skeleton.

Who would trade away their humanity for a 10% increase in function? The part that makes the augmentation of cyberpunk fun is the fact that it is taking us to the next level, lets use some imagination instead of assuming only a few minor incremental upgrades are possible.

 

[Suhiira]

but it is based on the findings that one of the unaugmented Mythbusters (Jamie) would have theoretically been able to dodge a bullet at 500 yards. Consequently, that same person with 1/10th reaction time provided by expanded & optimized neural pathways, musculature operating under a high reflex mode like the equivalent of the F-16's fly-by-wire system, &/or watching for a sign before the muzzle flash like the shooter's muscle movements would be able to theoretically dodge a bullet at 50 yards.

Well, if you feel you can see the muzzle of a weapon popping out of cover and devote your entire attention to it in the middle of a firefight ... I'd personally rather you be on the opposing side not mine ... nothing personal.

Why is it people take a single, HIGHLY choreographed (or highly impobable) , incident and attempt generalize off it?

Let's see ... ahhh yes ...
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/567424/US-Navy-SEAL-survived-after-being-shot-27-times
Therefore "bullet sponges" are totally realistic and reasonable.

I've seen runners take a rocket in CP2020, not well, but they were still breathing afterwards. The problem with "probable" when it comes to this level of speculation is that you can't actually run the probability, so "probable" just means believable and that's going to differ significantly from person to person. How many people in 1950 would think it "probable" that within 60 years you could have a computer with constant wireless connection to the internet, in your pocket over a thousand times more powerful than their building sized supercomputers at the time?

If you're going to go that route let's go for something even more spectacular:

In 19th century Britain, people were worried about trains going faster than 30mph. They thought that passengers would suffocate or that as the train reached a corner it would simply come off the rails. People believed that they would suffocate if they travelled faster than 30mph as they would not be able to breathe due to the surrounding air rushing past them.

Aether, once thought to be the medium which light propagated through. This theory seemed logical in the late 1800s with the newly developed understanding that light was an electromagnetic wave and the prior knowledge that all other waves propagate through a medium.

I'll stick to my definition of "probable" rather then jump down the rabbit hole of what may (or may not) be (or have been) "common knowledge" if it's all right with you.

 

[Snowflakez]

Well, if you feel you can see the muzzle of a weapon popping out of cover and devote your entire attention to it in the middle of a firefight ... I'd personally rather you be on the opposing side not mine ... nothing personal.

Why is it people take a single, HIGHLY choreographed (or highly impobable) , incident and attempt generalize off it?

Let's see ... ahhh yes ...
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/567424/US-Navy-SEAL-survived-after-being-shot-27-times
Therefore "bullet sponges" are totally realistic and reasonable.



If you're going to go that route let's go for something even more spectacular:

In 19th century Britain, people were worried about trains going faster than 30mph. They thought that passengers would suffocate or that as the train reached a corner it would simply come off the rails. People believed that they would suffocate if they travelled faster than 30mph as they would not be able to breathe due to the surrounding air rushing past them.

Aether, once thought to be the medium which light propagated through. This theory seemed logical in the late 1800s with the newly developed understanding that light was an electromagnetic wave and the prior knowledge that all other waves propagate through a medium.

I'll stick to my definition of "probable" rather then jump down the rabbit hole of what may (or may not) be (or have been) "common knowledge" if it's all right with you.

What if somebody did just have a ridiculously fast reaction time?

Mine is about 200ms. With augmentations, possibly drugs, etc., and 57 years of technological progress (more, because 2020 was already advanced in many ways compared to our world), you don't think someone's reaction speed could be much faster than that?

 

[Suhiira]

What if somebody did just have a ridiculously fast reaction time?

Well ...
https://www.scienceabc.com/pure-sciences/can-you-dodge-a-bullet-fired-at-you.html
https://www.pearsonhighered.com/content/dam/region-na/us/higher-ed/en/products-services/course-products/knight-physics-4e-info/pdf/chapter11.pdf
The "little" problem that your body would literally tear itself apart moving that fast might be a consideration don't you think?

 

[4meg]

What if somebody did just have a ridiculously fast reaction time?

Mine is about 200ms. With augmentations, possibly drugs, etc., and 57 years of technological progress (more, because 2020 was already advanced in many ways compared to our world), you don't think someone's reaction speed could be much faster than that?

If they have the nervous system they were born with and various implants you might get down to 50m/s. Now if you went to a black medicine clinic and had a complete rewiring job, maybe shave 10-15 m/s off that, but then you have to have muscle and skeletal system to absorb the sudden shocks you give it.

 

[EngryEngineer]

Well, if you feel you can see the muzzle of a weapon popping out of cover and devote your entire attention to it in the middle of a firefight ... I'd personally rather you be on the opposing side not mine ... nothing personal.

Why is it people take a single, HIGHLY choreographed (or highly impobable) , incident and attempt generalize off it?

Let's see ... ahhh yes ...
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/567424/US-Navy-SEAL-survived-after-being-shot-27-times
Therefore "bullet sponges" are totally realistic and reasonable.



If you're going to go that route let's go for something even more spectacular:

In 19th century Britain, people were worried about trains going faster than 30mph. They thought that passengers would suffocate or that as the train reached a corner it would simply come off the rails. People believed that they would suffocate if they travelled faster than 30mph as they would not be able to breathe due to the surrounding air rushing past them.

Aether, once thought to be the medium which light propagated through. This theory seemed logical in the late 1800s with the newly developed understanding that light was an electromagnetic wave and the prior knowledge that all other waves propagate through a medium.

I'll stick to my definition of "probable" rather then jump down the rabbit hole of what may (or may not) be (or have been) "common knowledge" if it's all right with you.

I wasn't going for spectacular, I was going for one of many technical achievements easily thought improbable that is roughly equidistant in time from now as we are from 2077. We are less than 15 years closer to 2077 as we are from ENIAC, which is a tremendous amount of advancement in 70 years. If so much is possible in such a relatively short period wouldn't it be better to let the game really get creative and have some really awesome tech rather than trying to limit it to what the least skeptical among us think is likely?

 

[Snowflakez]

Well ...
https://www.scienceabc.com/pure-sciences/can-you-dodge-a-bullet-fired-at-you.html
https://www.pearsonhighered.com/content/dam/region-na/us/higher-ed/en/products-services/course-products/knight-physics-4e-info/pdf/chapter11.pdf
The "little" problem that your body would literally tear itself apart moving that fast might be a consideration don't you think?

Nah, that's not an issue.

 

[Hoplite_22]

I wasn't going for spectacular, I was going for one of many technical achievements easily thought improbable that is roughly equidistant in time from now as we are from 2077. We are less than 15 years closer to 2077 as we are from ENIAC, which is a tremendous amount of advancement in 70 years. If so much is possible in such a relatively short period wouldn't it be better to let the game really get creative and have some really awesome tech rather than trying to limit it to what the least skeptical among us think is likely?

Ah, you started this quoting me talking about what we can expect in the real world, in a game anything is possible but making us chromed up superman would be no fun either.

most of what people here are talking about is the compromise between portraying the game world in a way that makes it feel connected to ours, but keeping the thematics of the OG game. so yes you get chrome limbs (not possible in our world) but not lift cars (cars are likely to fall apart if you try they aren't really meant to have that much focused force in small areas) sub dermal armour, but not matrix style bullet dodging.

trade off's to make the world seem like a plausible day after tomorrow.

 

[Suhiira]

If so much is possible in such a relatively short period wouldn't it be better to let the game really get creative and have some really awesome tech rather than trying to limit it to what the least skeptical among us think is likely?

Yes.

And I'll qualify that.
Between 2018 and 2077 we may develop practical fusion power, we may create a "perfect" AI, we may find the gene for ESP, we may discover aliens actually exist, we may develop a way to halt or seriously delay aging, we may ...

When you start on the "might" vs "probably" track where do you stop?

 

[Sardukhar]

When you start on the "might" vs "probably" track where do you stop?

Within reason. That's what futurists do. For game purposes, it's what seems feasible to us as players and what doesn't destroy game balance.

 

[EngryEngineer]

Ah, you started this quoting me talking about what we can expect in the real world, in a game anything is possible but making us chromed up superman would be no fun either.

most of what people here are talking about is the compromise between portraying the game world in a way that makes it feel connected to ours, but keeping the thematics of the OG game. so yes you get chrome limbs (not possible in our world) but not lift cars (cars are likely to fall apart if you try they aren't really meant to have that much focused force in small areas) sub dermal armour, but not matrix style bullet dodging.

trade off's to make the world seem like a plausible day after tomorrow.

I've only been arguing against the idea that radical augmentations would be "unbelievable" as that was the key argument I was seeing against it. Game balance & thematic adherence is a whole other story, though I feel like leaning into the transhuman capabilities works on that level as well.

Bullet Dodging keeps coming up, as an aside I had mentioned the idea that theoretically dodging a bullet isn't too crazy, mind you not once am I saying Neo level, but something like a coprocessor (in cp2020 terms) is paying attention to enemy movements and gives an early alert because a shooter has started movements in line with shooting, the boosted reflexes, faster muscles, and computer/sensor assisted body awareness & control then allows the user to rotate their torso the 3 inches or so necessary to not be in the bullet's path when the gun actually fires half a second later. They already have a bullet ricochet tracing implant (in game) that knows wall densities, fine alterations to angle, etc so applying that tracing algorithm in reverse to let the user know they are in a possible bullet path is not any crazier. It shouldn't be full proof giving false positives & negatives, and even when accurate it shouldn't always be possible to avoid, but it should give a much better chance than an unaugmented schlub jumping away from a camera's flash on Mythbusters.

On the point of not feeling fun & fitting the OG tone, personally, I feel that CP2020 characters rarely felt unstoppable (I was often acutely aware of their fragility), but they did often feel super/beyond human. Most runners are above average specimens to begin with and then crammed full of tech to make them even better, but no matter how much tech a runner gets, someone else has more & even when they don't a bad streak of luck &/or exceptional planning can help a handful of normies take down a full conversion. The more exceptional a character feels the more compelled they are to commit exceptional acts, but despite having super human capabilities they are still vulnerable & that vulnerability provides a sense of risk and allows for connection/identification. The hired guns feel increasingly more capable so they continuously increase the risk going from the streets into the corporate black sites and space stations far beyond the scope of regular folk, but also facing risks and consequences that are similarly elevated.

 

[Mebrilia]

I just want say a single thing: Impact,Impact,Impact

In many games i played on FPP like Chivalery,Kingdom Come deliverance,Mordau,Dishonored melee has no impact you swing with your sword and you see clearly it not even touching the opponent sometimes you can see the blade passing on the neck of the opponent and not even touching it then after you see the ennemy head pop up like a champagne cap.

On the other hand in GTAV melee weapons in first person seems to have impact.

video sample

 

[BaalNergal]

Aether, once thought to be the medium which light propagated through. This theory seemed logical in the late 1800s with the newly developed understanding that light was an electromagnetic wave and the prior knowledge that all other waves propagate through a medium.

Well, since most of outer space is actually hydrogen gas and not true vaccuum, technically the aether theory isn't entirely incorrect...

What if somebody did just have a ridiculously fast reaction time?

Mine is about 200ms. With augmentations, possibly drugs, etc., and 57 years of technological progress (more, because 2020 was already advanced in many ways compared to our world), you don't think someone's reaction speed could be much faster than that?

Forewarning and distance do more than reaction time ever will. Once a bullet is launched, all you have to do is not be there when it arrives; this is much easier when there is sufficient distance (this happens more often than you think) and you know the shot is going to be taken. Technically, you're mostly going to be dodging before the trigger is pulled, but still...

Note it's easier depending on the caliber and type of bullet, gun accessories, etc. A subsonic pistol round fired through a silencer from a couple blocks away is much easier than an anti-tank rifle from two yards.

Yes, there is an actual science to dodging bullets

Well ...
https://www.scienceabc.com/pure-sciences/can-you-dodge-a-bullet-fired-at-you.html
https://www.pearsonhighered.com/content/dam/region-na/us/higher-ed/en/products-services/course-products/knight-physics-4e-info/pdf/chapter11.pdf
The "little" problem that your body would literally tear itself apart moving that fast might be a consideration don't you think?

In order to even most that fast, you would have to augment your nerves, skeleton structure, skin, and muscles. Considering you would be pretty damned close to a full-body cyborg by that point, I don't think the limits of the human body apply anymore.

Yes.

And I'll qualify that.
Between 2018 and 2077 we may develop practical fusion power, we may create a "perfect" AI, we may find the gene for ESP, we may discover aliens actually exist, we may develop a way to halt or seriously delay aging, we may ...

When you start on the "might" vs "probably" track where do you stop?

Practical fusion power already exists. It's just down to which reactor design will end up dominant. Right now, they're just working on being able to mass produce and market it.

We also already know how to both halt and delay aging. We just don't have the technical capacity to do it yet. It's all of that squeamishness about human genetic engineering getting in the way.

I just want say a single thing: Impact,Impact,Impact

In many games i played on FPP like Chivalery,Kingdom Come deliverance,Mordau melee has no impact you swing with your sword and you see clearly it not even touching the opponent sometimes you can see the blade passing on the neck of the opponent and not even touching it then after you see the ennemy head pop up like a champagne cap.

On the other hand in GTAV melee weapons in first person seems to have impact.

video sample

Well, with some blades, a lack of impact is realistic. If you hit the neck in the right spot with the right blade and the right strength in your arm, your blade will go clear through it without stopping or disrupting the body that much.

But, yes. I agree. Impact is important. Just don't do a generic one-size-fits-all impact.