Military Ranks and Pay Grades

[Suhiira]

Actually Traveller, especially the Merc supplement does a pretty good job.

But I have to wonder ... not like CyberPunk gives Corps, Cops, or anyone else specific ranks/job title ... you're not a "Lower Middle Management" Corp or an "Executive Vice President" Corp ... does it really matter? Make your character whatever military rank you want them to have been based on your skills and character concept.

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

Actually Traveller, especially the Merc supplement does a pretty good job.

But I have to wonder ... not like CyberPunk gives Corps, Cops, or anyone else specific ranks/job title ... you're not a "Lower Middle Management" Corp or an "Executive Vice President" Corp ... does it really matter? Make your character whatever military rank you want them to have been based on your skills and character concept.

Actually, CP does give Cops different titles based upon their rank. Read the Protect and Serve Sourcebook. And in the military, promotion is not only a matter of prestige, it's a matter of responsibility. Of course this is true elsewhere too, but with the military, it's life and death.

 

[Sardukhar]

Actually, CP does give Cops different titles based upon their rank. Read the Protect and Serve Sourcebook. And in the military, promotion is not only a matter of prestige, it's a matter of responsibility. Of course this is true elsewhere too, but with the military, it's life and death.

Uh huh. Tell that to anyone that grew up in a logging or commercial fishing community, two of the most dangerous jobs in the world. Life and death are a part of many professions, rank tabs notwithstanding.

The Cop titles in P+S are subject to the same flaws as HotB - they are non-specific rough-ins. What department model do they follow? LAPD? OCSD? SFPD? Made up?

I think you should just copy over the command structure from the current USM. Seems simplest. Why not do that?

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

Uh huh. Tell that to anyone that grew up in a logging or commercial fishing community, two of the most dangerous jobs in the world. Life and death are a part of many professions, rank tabs notwithstanding.

The Cop titles in P+S are subject to the same flaws as HotB - they are non-specific rough-ins. What department model do they follow? LAPD? OCSD? SFPD? Made up?

I think you should just copy over the command structure from the current USM. Seems simplest. Why not do that?

That part is the easy part. The difficult part is the actual game rules regarding:
• How often someone can test for promotion as an NCO, Warrant Officer, or Commissioned Officer.
• What the difficulty to pass said test for each rank—be it NCO, WO, or CO.
• What skill increases are gained along with the increase in rank from said promotion within each chain.


Thus, it's not simply a matter of porting over the pay grades. It's rewriting the game rules to split the promotion tests and benefits up between three separate promotion paths—one for Enlisted Personnel, One for Warrant Officers (branching from the Enlisted), and one for Officers.

As for the promotion system in Protect and Serve being "generic", it is also pretty accurate to most Police departments because, unlike the military, in the Police force, there is no separate Officer/NCO promotion structure. The problem is, the game essentially used a Police Department style single linear promotion structure for the Military, and it just does not work. The Military has separate Parallel Promotion tracks for Enlisted and Officers, not a single linear one from Enlisted to Officer.

 

[Suhiira]

Might be the Corps adopted a Police style promotion track vice a military style one, given the way civilian bureaucrats work/think this would make sense.

Also in a Corp, unlike a Nation, the bean-counters ultimately in charge vice politicians. Given this there's not much need for general officers in a Corp military structure.

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

Except that the US Army is not under Corporate control, neither is the US Government. The Government isn't completely above wiping out a corp if necessary. They've done it once already in CP 2020. Thus, regardless of what the Corps do with their own "armies", doesn't apply to the National military forces, and they have no say over how the National forces operate.

Ultimately, I'm not looking for "justification" for how Home of the Brave wrote up the military Promotion rules. I am only interested in fixing them so that they accurately reflect the real Military command and promotion structure, and make the real military promotion system work in the game.

 

[Sardukhar]

Ultimately, I'm not looking for "justification" for how Home of the Brave wrote up the military Promotion rules. I am only interested in fixing them so that they accurately reflect the real Military command and promotion structure, and make the real military promotion system work in the game.

Not gonna touch your statement about how Corporations have no say, in the Cyberpunk world, about how National forces operate, but I will say that it's a discussion thread, so people are free to discuss whether or not the changes you look for in the PnP are even necessary from their viewpoint, as well as point out that the consensus seems to be that you should adopt current ranks and pay and toss in some home-brewed skill difficulties and challenges.

Those of us running or playing in games, (mostly just Wisdom, that bastard), would probably do exactly that. Or tell the player to present their requested changes and then say no. Because Refs.

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

Not gonna touch your statement about how Corporations have no say, in the Cyberpunk world, about how National forces operate, but I will say that it's a discussion thread, so people are free to discuss whether or not the changes you look for in the PnP are even necessary from their viewpoint, as well as point out that the consensus seems to be that you should adopt current ranks and pay and toss in some home-brewed skill difficulties and challenges.

Those of us running or playing in games, (mostly just Wisdom, that bastard), would probably do exactly that. Or tell the player to present their requested changes and then say no. Because Refs.

Yes, it is a discussion thread created by me for the sole purpose of coming up with new rules for military promotions, not whether or not those changes are "justified" or "necessary". The whole point is to collaborate on some new rules, to get feedback from other gamers and referees on what would be the best way to handle the difficulty, eligibility intervals, and benefits for Promotion tests for full NCO, Warrant Officer, and Officer promotion tracks that better reflect real military promotion structure. So telling me that people can discuss whether or not such changes are "necessary" defeats the whole point of why I started this thread in the first place.The whole point of this tread, therefore is to actually come up with those "home-brewed" skill difficulties, challenges, time intervals, and benefits. It is not to discuss whether or not those rules are necessary.

 

[Sardukhar]

Yes, it is a discussion thread created by me for the sole purpose of coming up with new rules for military promotions, not whether or not those changes are "justified" or "necessary". The whole point is to collaborate on some new rules, to get feedback from other gamers and referees on what would be the best way to handle the difficulty, eligibility intervals, and benefits for Promotion tests for full NCO, Warrant Officer, and Officer promotion tracks that better reflect real military promotion structure. So telling me that people can discuss whether or not such changes are "necessary" defeats the whole point of why I started this thread in the first place. The whole point of this tread, therefore is to actually come up with those "home-brewed" skill difficulties, challenges, time intervals, and benefits. It is not to discuss whether or not those rules are necessary.

Chill.

There have been answers to your question, as well as the quite logical question of, "why even do this?".

It's a discussion forum. You may start a thread, but people are free to chime in on the topic as they see fit. You do not get to set the parameters of the discussion or what people can or cannot say.

I do, though.

You are not required to reply to everyone who posts here.

Likewise, you do not get to say who can or cannot post here or what they may say.

That's my job. And I'm fine with people debating the necessity of the changes you are looking for. If for no other reason than they might learn why you want them changed and in doing so, improve their own game world setting.

But really, don't try to dictate who can say what. Thanks.

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

Chill.

There have been answers to your question, as well as the quite logical question of, "why even do this?".

It's a discussion forum. You may start a thread, but people are free to chime in on the topic as they see fit. You do not get to set the parameters of the discussion or what people can or cannot say.

I do, though.

You are not required to reply to everyone who posts here.

Likewise, you do not get to say who can or cannot post here or what they may say.

That's my job. And I'm fine with people debating the necessity of the changes you are looking for. If for no other reason than they might learn why you want them changed and in doing so, improve their own game world setting.

But really, don't try to dictate who can say what. Thanks.

Except that there have not been answers to the actual questions asked.

The questions are these:

1. What should the difficulties be for the specific Promotion tests for NCOs from E-5 through E-9, For Warrant Officers from WO-1 through WO-5, and Officers from O-1 through O-10?

2 What should be the time interval be for how often Enlisted personnel, Warrant Officers, and Officers can test for promotion within each promotion path?

3. What specific skill benefits, on top of the new rank, should promotion give NCOs, Warrant Officers, and Officers upon passing the test and getting promoted as they advance up their respective paths?
Those are the questions I asked. I also put forth my own proposals and asked what people thought of them, and if they had any other ideas that might work better. I have not gotten answers to those questions. All I have heard is "Why do this?" "Is it necessary?", "Why not just use the ranks and make up some house rules?", "Maybe the Corporations forced the Government to change the ranks system."

None of that answers the specific questions I asked.

Right from the very beginning I stated why I wanted to do this. All I want to know is HOW.

 

[Sardukhar]

Here's what you asked, in your first post, after talking about the linear promotion scheme:

"Now, here's where it gets interesting. Let's figure out how to go about actually applying real military rank and Pay Grade structure into the game."

Here's one answer:

"I wouldn't say it's very very wrong, just in need of a minor adjustment, if it bothers you. Throw in Warrant Officer and a few other Sergeant grades, Corporal, whatever."

Another: "Did you try Twilight 2000? Hey, Tramp, have you ever seen/played Twilight 2000? It was pretty good, iirc. You could maybe import it straight in?"

"You mean the games rank system?
Again it REALLY depends on the nation, and sometime the service you're modeling. In the US Army a Platoon Sergeant is an E7, in the USMC an E6. Same responsibilities, and the USMC E6 actually commands more people (since USMC platoons are larger)."

And this:

"Not entirely true (at least in the US military).
At the highest ranks in each category (E9, W4, and O8ish+) there is usually an extra Pay Grade for special cases.
Example, the Command Sgt Major of the entire US Army is technically an E9 just like the Sgt Major of any battalion, but they're at a special Pay Grade and sort of treated as an E10 unofficially.
Also within most Pay Grades there are "Time in Service" modifications. A major with 20 years in service is paid more then one with 10.

And as I pointed out earlier the actual responsibility any given rank wields may vary from service branch to branch and wildly from nation to nation. This was particularity true under the Soviet system where officers frequently performed duties that in the west were performed by NCOs."

So, those are some of the answers.

 

[weregeld]

If you are looking for a basis for actual rules Tramp, keep it simple, here is what I did for my revised rules(found some of my old notes recently) keep in mind that these were built more for character generation than accurately representing the military, also some changes for the way the millitary is represented to run in 2020 funding problems and hamstrung by completely corrupt and ineffectual civilian government and constant headhunting of talent by PMC's. Operation big stick against the mantoga corporation was effective in annihilating a major corp but few corporations have been that stupid to give the military a justifiable excuse to come at them like that till the 4th corpwar and even then it took them a while to get organized. However in regards to ranks and promotions if you want some fast and easy rules here ya go

1 officer and enlisted ranks are split to there own tracks with tests for each rank as per HOB with a +1 difficulty for every subsequent rank
officers starting at 2 LT and enlisted at private

2 officers must start with 4 points from there pickup skills in education (representing military school/ROTC) i had more for officers but that part of my notes is missing

3 enlisted can attempt to "mustang" ie become officers with a leadership+education test diff 20

4 specal forces (any unit for simplicity sake they all use the same test regardless of actual unit) per HoB

5 payday ok this I kept the same from Hob except the written paygrades were for enlisted only officers were about 500 eb more, keep in mind the rules in HoB and the ones I came up with were aimed more at ex military PC's (compared to standard starting solos ex military ones still get a LOT more starting cash.

Keep in mind this is just broad strokes and are based on optional rules I no longer have a complete copy of. But if enough people are interested I can try to rebuild what Ive got.

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

Thank you, Weregeld. This is exactly the type of input I'm looking for. I would love to see them in more detail. The only part that seems a bit off, is having Enlisted personnel test even for promotion from E-1 to E-4 since in the real military, those promotions are pretty much automatic after a specific period of time, unless you get disciplinary action taken against you.

How would you handle Warrant Officers?

 

[weregeld]

Thanks. I didn't really cover warrant officers in my original rules just because I wasn't sure were they fit in ground combat roles. I'm 4-F due to bad knees and mostly based my rules on a combo of the twilight:2000 and my own research and figured warrants weren't common enough in roles that PC's wold want to play that I just fudged it. The promotion thing actually works well the test is Leadership + EMP + 1d10 most players pump up there empathy for cyber so most tests get passed easily till they get up to higher ranks.

Like I said if theirs interest Ill start redoing them and any input would be welcome.

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

Warrant Officers are actually very common. Their roles are also very diverse, to say the least. They're typically the guy in charge of the Motor Pool, or they're Helicopter pilots, or various other jobs which require a special skill set. As a rule, they're typically drawn from the NCO ranks E-6 or above(except maybe for the pilots). Warrant Officer Warrant Officer US.

 

[Suhiira]

In the the US military Warrant Officers are basically technical specialists. Regular officers rarely have an in-depth understanding of any technical field as their job is overall management. But in a technical field you need someone in charge that fully understands the tech so they can manage the actual work/deployment and set priorities.

Once upon a time I was working in a maintenance unit (in charge of actually filling out and tracking requisitions for parts, tools, etc.), we had this young lieutenant there who was technically the officer in charge but of course had little-to-no understanding of the details of the work done.
Not being an officer I couldn't actually sign the requisitions (whereas a Warrant Officer could have) so I took her piles of the damn things every day to sign. But I noticed she got to the point she was just signing anything I put in front of her ...
So being stationed in the desert I looked up,and filled out a requisition for a battleship.
After she'd signed it I suggested it might be a good idea to at least look at what was being ordered and showed her what she'd just signed. ]:->

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

:hrhr::hrhr::hrhr:ROFLAMO!!!!!:hrhr::hrhr::hrhr:

 

[wisdom000]

sigh

ihttp://datafortress2020.com/conflict/rank.html

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

sigh

ihttp://datafortress2020.com/conflict/rank.html

Yeah. It's a start, but hat table only lists the ranks and pay, not the difficulties for promotion tests (AKA passing the promotion board), nor the amount of time between tries for promotion, nor skill benefits. It's also missing the Warrant Officer ranks.

Of course, I was making more than what that table lists for E-9 pay as an E-3 back in 1991. Those ranks are way underpaid.

I'm trying to work out a full set of promotion rules, for all three rank paths. The NCO and Officer promotion test rules may only need some minor tweaking, but for Warrant Officers, they pretty much need to be written whole cloth. Do you have some ideas?

 

[weregeld]

well like I said I based a lot of this on rules I wrote almost 20 years ago and don't don't have a complete set of anymore. However if the career requires you to be a Warrant Officer you would probably start out as one on completion of training for that. I didn't write rules for bouncing between MOS simply because I didn't need the headache of players metagaming characters at the time. for WO promotinon simple leadership test at 15 with+1 per level till you hit officer than you switch to offficer difficulties. as for pay most people gotta balance reality with game balance wisdoms system works better than mine did exspecally when you consider all the perks solders get in 2020 and the low cost of living for everyone else in 2020 most bases have on site facillities and benifits for dependants leftover from the martial law days and are far safer than any low cost urban area I wouldnt be suprised at lower pay.