MO Improvement suggestions

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As MO got no love this month and CDPR pretty much confirmed that they will get some with the next patch, i wanted to give a few improvement suggestions for the cards that i think need some buffs ASAP.

1. Selfeater - This card is BY FAR the most unfairly nerfed 6 provision card. The way it used to work was:
6 point body when it hits the board,
Fist split - 3-3 point bodies, play relict, generate 2 points in the first round
Second split - 4-2-2 point bodies, play relict, generate 3 points on the second round
Third split - 4-3-2-2 point bodies, play relict, generate 4 points on the third round. In this round you would lose 1 point because the 3rd body would be a 3 point so it would round down when split but from there, all low point bodies would split evenly and generate normal points.

The way it works now is:
5 point body hits the board,
First split - 2-2 bodies, play relict, generate 1 point in the first round (makes no difference if you split or not, you can only get 1 point)
Second split - 3-1-1, play relict, generate 2 points. (again, it makes no difference if you split or not the second body, you can only get 1 point)
Third split - 4-2-2, play relict, generate 2 points. And only from here you can start generating points normally because that's when the card's points start to even out

I don't know about you, but losing all those points for absolutely no reason on a 6 PROVISION BRONZE is unacceptable. No other faction with a 6p cost unit has this type of disadvantage.

Suggestion for a fix:
Either buff it back to 6 points to have the split be even again OR change the mechanic so that when SE splits, the points round up instead of down.
This way when a 5 point SE splits you get 2 bodies of 3 points and we can generate points normally from there.
But i don't think SE want's to change a mechanic of the game just for 1 card so i guess buffing it back to 6 would be easier.

2. Incubus - This card is ok-ish but i absolutely despise that i'm dependant on what the enemy plays to be able to play my own cards. No other faction has such a ridiculous limitation. If i play a whole round growing a SE just to be able to use it in the 2nd and 3rd rounds then why should i not be able to play that card just because my opponent didn't have to play his 6p cards?
I have to add Operator (a meme card) to my deck just to put a SE on the enemy board to be able to play my own. Sorry, that's not fair.

Suggestion for a fix:
Make Incubus let us chose the card we wanna get first BUT give the opponent a RANDOM card from their graveyard. I would gladly risk giving the opponent a good engine back but be able to play my own engines rather than not have access to my cards because the opponent didn't wanna play 6p cards.
Also, if this change is implemented i think the card's power can be reduced back to 5 or even 4. Hell, make it a 3 but give me the ability to get my engines back without depending on the opponent.

3. Yaga - This card only saw play in the first few weeks when it launched, then people figured out it's bad and hasn't been seen since. It's waaay too situational and limited. Most of the time you get to consume a 4 provision unit of 5-6 points and that's it.

Suggestions for a fix:
1. Reduce provision to 11. As i said, most of the times it consumes 1 unit and dies. If you can get her going sure, she's great but even then, you're dependent on what the enemy plays so i think that's more than enough of a limitation.
2. Give her Deploy on the consume part. Obviously i can't speak for everyone but one of the main reasons i dropped the card was because half my games were against SK and they always had 1 or even 2 An Craite Longship on their side of the board. She would die as soon as she hit the board :D Idk about you but i don't enjoy having my 12 (13 at the time) provision card be shut down by a 5 provision card.
Either give her deploy on consume if sabbath is met OR give her 2 points of armor so that she won't die to those longships.

4. Gerni - Now, this is not a big deal but i think it's important to point out. Gerni had her provision increased from 10 to 11 to get her out of Caranthir's range to stop the triple Gerni combo. I don't have a problem with that, i think it's a good thing. But the thing is, the nerf to her was just to stop that combo. The card itself was fine. So if you increased the provision by 1 just to stop that combo, wouldn't it be fair to also give her 1-2 points of power to make up for the unnecessary provision increase?

5. Witches' Sabbath - Only complaints i have about this card is that it's too RNG and the fact that the opponent's units don't get Doomed like my own do.

Suggestions for a fix:
Either let the MO player chose the units (if we have like 3 units in the 6 power range, let us chose which one we want) OR also give the enemy units doomed so that they don't get to ressurect them either. This would be especially useful against SK and Kelly decks.

This would be all the cards in the latest patch that i consider underwhelming.

Since we're talking MO improvements, as always, can't forget to mention the Wild Hunt! Please make Wild Hunt a tier 0 deck since it's my favorite archtype!
I won't post any suggestions on this tread since i already made a separate one on this subject. For those of you who are interested and wanna see what ideas the community came up with and maybe you have some ideas as well to improve the WH here's a link to that post:

Thank you for reading till this point! Please, let me know what you think about my suggestions.
Cheers!
 
All in all fair changes. Back then when Relics were brand new they had to be nerfed, but at the current powerlevel I don't see any problems with these changes. Some cards might be pretty oppressive in some situations, but that's the case with literally every faction in the game right now. Let's hope there will be more changes, I don't think we want to see Relics only the whole season from MO lol
 
All in all fair changes. Back then when Relics were brand new they had to be nerfed, but at the current powerlevel I don't see any problems with these changes. Some cards might be pretty oppressive in some situations, but that's the case with literally every faction in the game right now. Let's hope there will be more changes, I don't think we want to see Relics only the whole season from MO lol
For sure. I don't wish to see Relicts only either :D. I personally hope that WH will become a tier 1 or 0. Then we would have WH, Vampires which are good-ish already and if those changes come to Relicts we could have relicts as well :D
Ofc, there also are decks like Kelly but i don't count Kelly as a MO deck. I find it to be a cheap one-trick-pony and i despise that. I consider it more of a meme deck, even though i know it's not.
 
WH would need something like Rioghan and other new cards to become really good.... the introduction of Kelly to the game was a mistake, I agree with you lol. I don't like any options MO has at the moment, they're either very frustrating if you don't have answers and on the other hand completely underwhelming if they get controlled, which is more likely to happen at the moment. I think Deathwish still has some potential, but Dettlaff getting muzzled before you can copy him all the time surely isn't helpful....
 
This is more of a relict thread than MO thread, and they really aren't in that desperate need of buffing now as it is, peak relict meta is probably the worst patch I ever saw in this game, especially the old self eater was extremely oppressive.

I could agree that Yaga needs a buff ('d make it so when you consume a 4p unit you can still go for 4p next time and so on). Dying to a longship isn't any more unfair than Cleaver or Kolgrim doing so, I assume your issue here is like 90% of relict players you put no control in your deck and just go full on greed seeing as a longship is fairly easy to deal with.
 
WH would need something like Rioghan and other new cards to become really good.... the introduction of Kelly to the game was a mistake, I agree with you lol. I don't like any options MO has at the moment, they're either very frustrating if you don't have answers and on the other hand completely underwhelming if they get controlled, which is more likely to happen at the moment. I think Deathwish still has some potential, but Dettlaff getting muzzled before you can copy him all the time surely isn't helpful....
Yeah, muzzle complicates things a bit but Deathwish is still quite viable. Just not my preffered deck.

This is more of a relict thread than MO thread, and they really aren't in that desperate need of buffing now as it is, peak relict meta is probably the worst patch I ever saw in this game, especially the old self eater was extremely oppressive.

I could agree that Yaga needs a buff ('d make it so when you consume a 4p unit you can still go for 4p next time and so on). Dying to a longship isn't any more unfair than Cleaver or Kolgrim doing so, I assume your issue here is like 90% of relict players you put no control in your deck and just go full on greed seeing as a longship is fairly easy to deal with.

I didn't say they are in desperate need of buffing. I was pointing out cards that got an unfair treatment that could use some buffs since the devs said that the next patch will be about MO.
The Relict meta was as bad as you say because SE was the first 6 provision card introduced while the other factions didn't get theirs. That's why it felt so unfair. Now that all the cards have been added there's no debate that SE is the worst 6 provision card out of the lot.
As far as the Yaga stuff goes, yes. You're 100% on the spot. In a relict deck as far as control goes you can have like parasite and a Whispress that gets to 6 point to remove a longship. Only 2 options and even those are debatable if they are worth adding over other relicts.
You have to prioritize high point relicts over control because you need Sabbath. That makes those longsips especially hard to deal with for that deck. So yes, i get your point about Cleaver or Kolgrim but like you pointed out, those decks have control options so they don't struggle as much.
Not to mention, both Cleaver and Kolgrim have lower provision costs and they are much easier to get value out of than Yaga.
 
You're 100% on the spot. In a relict deck as far as control goes you can have like parasite and a Whispress that gets to 6 point to remove a longship. Only 2 options and even those are debatable if they are worth adding over other relicts.
You have to prioritize high point relicts over control because you need Sabbath.
There are other options as well like toad (the bane of any longship out there) doregary and heatwave unless for some unknown reason you are devotion, drowners also works, not to mention wrath which is really good in relict decks. I've managed pretty high MMR with relicts and I went for having a good amount of control, but sure it's a balance because you need to think about sabbath, but if you can't deal with a simple longship the issue is with your deck.
 
There are other options as well like toad (the bane of any longship out there) doregary and heatwave unless for some unknown reason you are devotion, drowners also works, not to mention wrath which is really good in relict decks. I've managed pretty high MMR with relicts and I went for having a good amount of control, but sure it's a balance because you need to think about sabbath, but if you can't deal with a simple longship the issue is with your deck.
Alternatives and options i can find plenty myself. My point wasn't that Longship is unbeatable. My point was to buff Yaga cuz atm she's a dead card and Longship is one of the reasons i dropped the card. Most witches are very high provision cards so it's a delicate balance to remove a relict (which can proc SE) for let's say a Toad Prince as you mentioned. Witches are made to synergize with other witches and adding non-relict cards has a higher price than what you see at first glance.

So yes, i could add Toad but i would have to give up one of the Crones (and again that weakens the other 2 crones) or something like Rat Catcheress (which again, is very good in the deck).
Adding Doregary means giving up a SE. Adding Heatwave means giving up Gerny or Yaga herself. And the examples can go on. Relict decks have a very delicate balance and a very strict pool of cards which can be added for maximum value and as i said, Sabbath has to be the priority.
 
So yes, i could add Toad but i would have to give up one of the Crones (and again that weakens the other 2 crones) or something like Rat Catcheress (which again, is very good in the deck).
Adding Doregary means giving up a SE. Adding Heatwave means giving up Gerny or Yaga herself. And the examples can go on. Relict decks have a very delicate balance and a very strict pool of cards which can be added for maximum value and as i said, Sabbath has to be the priority.
Rat Catheress is garbage anyway as she competes with she who knows for the resilience carryover. The last part is a perfect example of the typical mentality of relict players. Do you really think having no control gives you max value? What do you think happens to your board if you let something like a crach run rampant against you, or ban ard studens getting 10+ damage?

It would be great if more relict actual control cards were added, but until then like many other decks you just have to take what's available.
 
Rat Catheress is garbage anyway as she competes with she who knows for the resilience carryover. The last part is a perfect example of the typical mentality of relict players. Do you really think having no control gives you max value? What do you think happens to your board if you let something like a crach run rampant against you, or ban ard studens getting 10+ damage?

It would be great if more relict actual control cards were added, but until then like many other decks you just have to take what's available.
There are decks that focus on greedy play and there are others who focus on control. If you are big on control, NG might be more your style.
Relicts win by outpointing the enemy. Not by control.
Typical mentality of a relict player?:)) That's the optimal way to play the deck. Don't believe me? Build a relict deck and we can go for a 1v1. We'll see who's right rather than debate hypotheticals on the forum.
 
There are decks that focus on greedy play and there are others who focus on control. If you are big on control, NG might be more your style.
Relicts win by outpointing the enemy. Not by control.
Typical mentality of a relict player?:)) That's the optimal way to play the deck. Don't believe me? Build a relict deck and we can go for a 1v1. We'll see who's right rather than debate hypotheticals on the forum.
I've already built a deck which I managed 2550+ MMR with a couple of seasons ago, it's probably weaker in mirrors but not overall, if you want to play a game or two I don't mind. Not only NG has control tools, that monsters have no control and is just a total greed faction is a complete myth.
 
MO archetypes seem to be lost too deeply. Few cards does not change lack of synergy, need a complete rework.
Not only units but also, spells, MO have worst location, worst scenario, like it was made on purpose.
Just can't believe how to make archetypes with such small synergy potential. :coolstory:
 
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Selfeater
After PoP expansion relicts and especially slefeaters were really strong. So I understood the need of the nerf. Maybe at current power level a small buff might be justified. My suggestion goes into another direction.

Order: Halve this unit's base power, then Spawn a copy with the same base power on this row.
Whenever you play a Relict, increase this unit's base power by 1.
Devotion: If the base power of this unit is unequal, the base power of the unit is rounded up instead of down.

Reasoning: There are many neutral relicts often used in relict heavy deck. So relicts would get one strong devotion bonus.

Incubus
This card does have its usecases even in meta decks usually combined with Operateur. (e.g. Fledder swarm; https://teamleviathangaming.com/meta/). Without the Operateur manipulation that card, indeed, heavily depends on your opponent´s played card. My suggestion again takes into account devotion.

Deploy: Summon a bronze unit from your opponent's graveyard to the opposite row, then Summon a bronze unit of equal or less provisions from your graveyard to this row.
Devotion: Summon a bronze unit from your opponent's graveyard to the opposite row, then Summon a bronze unit of equal or less provisions from your graveyard or any bronze relict from your graveyard to this row instead.

Yaga
Here I am with you. At her current stats that card is far away from meta. I have the following idea:

Deploy (Sabbath): Gain Zeal.
Order: Consume a 4 provision unit, then increase the provision value by 1.
Devotion: Gain two armour for each adjacent relict.
Cooldown: 2

Gernichora:
I really think that she is fine as she is. There are many extremly greedy decks with her and I would not make her stronger.


Witches' Sabbath
One of the strongest MO PoP cards which offers MO many manipulative play styles (e.g. Fleder swarm, Resummoning boosted Speartip, Resummoning Kelly, Resummoning Gernichora). No need for a buff.


Talking about buffing relicts, I would even think about the following:

Doppler
Vrihedd Vanguard and Venendal Elite are both much stronger similiar cards. So I would appreciate some buff for the poor little doppler.

My suggested buff:
Deploy: Choose a unit in your hand, then boost self by the total number of units in your hand which have the same primary category as that unit.
If you have only unit´s in hand with the chosen primary category, increase your base power by that amount instead.

This would add some nice graveyard manipulation tools.

Rat Catcheress
Increase base power to 10, so she is in line with Golyat.

Unicorn and
Chironex
Reduce provision to 7 or even 6 to be in line with the similar Etriel/Muirlega buff.

Allgod
A 10 for 10 where 6 from his value goes into your deck. Thats just terribly bad.

Deploy: Boost 3 units in your deck by 2. If the chosen unit was a relict additionally increase its base power by 1.
 
I unfortunately see Sihil with Noonwraith and Brewess: Ritual decks, i personally don't like the changes to B:R.

More neutrals like Triss: MS are entering MO decks, which will lead to GN-like tedious meta.

Thrive and consume are underpowered, Endrega Larva could be back to 5 provisions easily.
 
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