MO Leaders need update

[StrongFirst]

Everything has been powercrept. Multiple times. Even with the nerfing down of SC Mystic Echo and NR Pincer Maneuver, there are just way too many cards that need to be rebalanced because of power creep. And that's a hard, tedious work with lots of things to consider. It is not easy.

But first, lets take a look at the MO Leaders that need changes urgently. Carapace, Force of Nature and Fruits of Ysgith.

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Carapace: 16 Provisions. Boost and allied unit by 3 and give it a Shield. Charge: 2
- Sadly, this is just waay to weak. You could try to have it like SC Guerilla Tactics, to boost by just 2 but have 3 charges... It is still meh. Not competitive.

Suggestion: change to "once per round", like the original Death's Shadow was functioning. This way a player could have 3 charges total, while reinforcing an archetype that protects a unit each turn, without being a fixed 3 charges. Thus, to have 3 round would be preferred and not just always push/bleed Round 2.

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Force of Nature: 16 Provisions. Boost a unit in your hand by 8.
- Although in theory this sounds like a big tempo swing, the archetype has been pushed out of existence already last year by the even-more-point-slam Svalblod (Ursine Ritual) and now then THAT Svalblod was pushed out of competitive play. Need I say more? Super weak, multiple times powercrept leader. With more an more options to punish/control tall units each expansion, growing tall in any deck is a bigger risk than ever. Especially for MO who have more risk per card, vs the current Greatswords SK where they can just play 4x Greatswords, Dagur and replay it even more with Second Wind. Even if you have last say to boost your card with this ability, it is often way too weak and you have to commit more in previous rounds - essentially bleeding yourself.

Suggestion: sure, increase it to "boost 10", that sounds logical and fair, but it would be too much of a swing and I'm telling you, it still wouldn't solve the problem, at all, but would result in a 1% increase of matches where you might "unfairly" win, making the opponent feel like it was undeserving. 1%... However:

Make an actual bold move to bring this Leader ability back on track. It is the signature "BIG Woodland" the "Force of Nature", thematically the overwhelming, sheer amount of power it should throw at you. Change to 19-20 Provisions. Make a bold move. Shake it up. Maybe even downgrade the boost a little. Make it about PROVISION Power.
Boost by 5/6, Prov 20? I don't think its OP. It may sound "OP", however, with the current set of cards, it would be more like "per card stronger deck with a weak leader ability". Old Speartip might even make a well-deserved comeback.

Hell, you could even go really wild with this, by giving it just a ton of Provision boost and no added ability!

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Fruits of Ysgith: 11 Provisions. Spawn Gernichora's Fruit on an allied row.
- I get it, when it first came out and we had the unlimited Fruit+Spears combo, everyone was shocked and afraid. This memory might still live in the developers minds, but please realize, that this leader has been powercrept by others multiple times. There is just no reason, no argument to leave it like this. It is not just that it is not OP anymore. It is not enough. It is below average. When a deck with the potential to efficiently push Round 2 exist and is competitive, is always good for the meta, healthier for the game, because it punishes open-ended, ridiculous amounts of point-amassing / greedy decks.

Suggestion: increase Provisions. Nuff said. Make it 13-14 Provisions.

 

[DRK3]

I want to take this opportunity and thank the OP for this thread, to share some thoughts on Gernichora.

Before that, regarding the other 2 leaders - i agree, Carapace is just too weak, its only useful for meme decks with engines that are mostly neutral and not Monster faction.
And Force of Nature... Oh how the mighty have fallen. The most popular leader ability by far in the early times of Gwent HC, now it sucks. First of all, its just 8 points, it has no synergy with any Monster card, like say Harald+Dagur where you effectively get twice the value. Second, with poison running rampant on 3 factions, plus Yen's Invocation on every NG deck, its a bad time for any tall units deck.

Now, unto Gernichora.
I actually hated this leader, but recently it was the only MO leader i needed for Mastery (100 wins), so i decided to try it. Against all odds, i used it to Rank up all the way from 9 to Pro, mostly by pushing really hard R1 and getting CA often. Yes, if you're on a 3card R3 vs an opponent still with leader ability its much harder, but it balances out by how much pressure you put on him earlier and probably forced him to use his best cards.

I dont remember the gerni fruits+spear combo that well, but i think it is possible to still get that much value.
Most leader abilities are balanced around 8pts. Gerni can provide 32 on optimal conditions!
A typical match has 16 turns (if no Matta Huris, Isbel, Stregobors, etc. are played).
Most players generate a fruit and build it up with thrive, but this only gives 1 pt per turn (which is still 16+ pts per match!)
But if you can create and consume the fruit at 2pts every single turn - say with slyzard - it is possible to obtain this amazing value (32pts) out of Gernichora, so i do understand the much lower leader provisions, and i dont think its needs a buff.

P.S.- this value is not even a hardcap, it can be increased with cards that allow more than a single thrive per turn like Gascon Iron Falcon or Dandelion Poet.

 

[Fhrek1986]

The problem with Gerni is the provision cost. Yes, we can build up to 32pts, even more using the right combos.
While some factions like NG, NR, SK and ST can reuse the Leader Ability to generate more provision cost much more easely than any MO Leader ability.

MO is one the most mixed archetype faction in the game, we have Thrive, consume, vampirism, Tall units, but... a BIG lack of board control. They tried do that using rats, but it rarely works. While ST and SY has a nice swarm tempo, MO is slow and vunerable without provide any damage on the opponent side.

MO is always a high risky reward, the decks don't play for themselfs, they need work and perfect mulligans. As mentioned, MO is a test faction, maybe because of that is the only Players vs CPU existing in the game as Testing.

Gwent must include some more Player vs CPU modes, and give rewards to it, maybe it should create more popularity to the game overall. Thronebreaker with the puzzles, challenges and campaign histories showed it has appealing.

 

[Maxx_payne]

If they rework MO leaders i hope they do it better than with AQ and Elder.

Dettlaff rework was great, but AQ and Elder have been nerfed without reason.

 

[StrongFirst]

TL: DR: I agree that Gerni is a super strong ability in theory. It always have the potential to become one of the strongest leaders. However: it is a MO leader, where it is not about to happen. Why? This leads me to the longer, second problem with MO: the cost of the cards is actually balanced, appropriate. Meaning, they have the cost-value ratio of what it should be. How on Earth could that be a problem, you ask? Well, simple: the Tier 1 decks don't have this limitation. But now we are going down the rabbit hole:

More competitive factions/decks will:
- out-value MO on average per provision (simple maths: if you pay 10 for a 10, while your opponent pays 10 for 11, he will win more often)
- will have more good, playable options in the middle price category (monsters really important cards are always 10+ Provisions, thus limiting strategy, forcing you to include more cheaper and weaker assets, from which some of them might even be above average bronzes - MO has really good ones - you still get less value because it still is a bronze)
- the strongest decks have either better card tutoring (NG, NR, SC) or will have less NEED for tutoring (see SC Harmony) because of increased versatility and / or not having the need to play in a certain order / having more backup options. MO consistency is generally weaker, unless you are playing the Tier 4 point slam Big Woodland.
- MO generally has a Tier 1-worthy round if your hand for that round is scalable (e.g. from your Endrega Larvas to your Golyat/Imlerith expensive thingy) and thus MO always has less versatility per round and more predictability. Meaning you don't just need to draw your right cards, but you will need to have them in a certain order which scales the difficulty of you actually having them, let alone play them without being stopped in your tracks while you play in a specific order. But I could say that for every faction, right? Actually, no, SC Harmony can play a random card each turn and still get at least okay values, same goes for NR, after you get your specific starter engines going (whether it is a Scenario or a needed setup of 1-2 cards) you can just play greedy with a deck that's not supposed to be greedy. With MO, if you don't play a deck that needs to chain cards in a specific order, then you must have a more big tempo swing oriented deck, which will in turn fall short in just a bit longer of a round. It is A or B, no alternative.

Certainly, it is hard to evaulate Gernichora, because with such low Provisions it is still the best MO leader ability and in theory, yes, you can make a ton of points with it. Sure, I would never simply say "just give it 15 Provisons" as in average normal leader. It definietly is much better than that. I still think that 1 or 2 more Prov would be decent (12-13). 14 is indeed too much.

However. You could say similar things about engines NR (without leader ability even considered). If you can get away with your plan, if the opponent cannot stop you, you will ramp up over 100 points in a long round, easily, same with a full-on thrive MO deck that can play Endregas, then 2s, then 3s, then 4s etc... Yet no one says that these are OP. This is just in that specific scenario, where the opponent does not have the right control tools, will lose. But how often is MO (regardless of leader ability or deck goal) out-controlled? Well, over 50% of the time, for sure.

With the low Provisions, Gernichora players must fit in more low-value bronzes. Yes, MO has many really good bronzes. But, they still are just bronzes. With a low Prov deck, with limited tutoring ability, MO will struggle to have a great hand, which they would need in R1 and R2. If they don't have it, they cannot push effectively, thus seriously increasing the chance of losing R3. With MO you get a feeling of having to fit in junk, just to make "ends meet". Even a gold card filled NR Pincer Maneuver never felt that certain bronzes were just in there as fillers.

This is also not so simple, not just this one reason. Another part of the problem is that while MO has great and fun cards, they are either: overpriced (only in comparison to the cards that see play nowadays) or appropriately priced. As funny as it sounds, that's a huge problem.

Meaning, that while MO can just slam big friggin points in a single turn, they can 1. never have the same level of board control as potential opponents 2. have greater risk against control and removal than other factions 3. in the very long turns, they will fall short, they will reach their point ceiling sooner, not having the fully open-endedness of practically infinite point generation. Which is, by the way, absolutely fine and balanced! But... The current Tier 1 decks don't have that. So it is not really about what would be balanced and optimal, its about actually having a chance against overtuned decks.

You are not gonna pay 14 Provisions for a 12 point Old Speartip, even if you were guaranteed to trigger at least 3 Thrives (thus resulting in a net total of 15 Points - and you are not guaranteed to have that!) because it is not enough for that many Provisions, considering the point-risk ratio (also I'm sure the opposing NG will Bribery into Ozzrel to eat it, lol). Great target for tall removal, Yennefer's Invo, Poison.

You are not really paying 12 Provisions for a 7 point Plague Maiden, that is potentially at least 14 Points, plus comboable with Glusty etc. It is only playable in very niche decks where it makes of breaks the deck and even then it is not considered great, just something that you either use or build a different deck.

The renewed Imlerith is a step in the right direction, basically a guaranteed 12 Provisons 13 Point, that grows wide instead of tall, can still trigger thrives etc. It is really good of a card! And yet... It is just good, not THAT good. You would need 4-5 cards like that to have a competitive round. Meaning you would need 8-10 like that throughout a game to actually be Tier 1, meaning you need 12-15 of them in your deck. Show me a competitive MO deck that has more than 4-5 really impactful cards.

You are not paying 10 Prov for a 9 point Old Speartip: Asleep. Currently competitive factions get 14+ points with a variety of control/ risk mitigation included, while all you get is 9 points, or maybe some thrives which is now more rare than you'd think. And if you don't Ozzrel at least an Yghern, it is rarely worth the risk (Ozzreling a Golyat is not gonna win games).

You are not paying 9 Provisions for a potentially 10 point Protofleder. Because it is not enough. You only include it in your Vampire deck because you MUST. Not because it is good.

Think about this: Alpha Werewolf, which is a 4 point thrive card, was nerfed from being 5 Prov to 6 Prov.
Many MO decks would only include it for 4 Provisions. That's a 33% decrease in Provisions and would still not be an absolutely must-include card. Endrega Larvas would still be better at 5 Prov.
And how many Nekker Warriors do you see?

The thing is, that it is now EXPECTED from your Provision investment to do at least multiple things fairly well, or do something excessively well. If it is just good, or borderline/above average, you will have to cut it for something that comboes well with your strategy, mitigates risk and/or gives you superior options. Otherwise, 4 Provision bronzes will only be included in MO decks, because you simply MUST include 4-prov cards! Because you have spent so much on the stuff that you need... Because they are appropriately priced.

While MO cards are appropriately priced (as in: way to expensive for their own good), they will need a stronger leader, or they will never be Tier 1. So either Gernichora and all other MO leaders need a simple Provision buff (which, overall, would be a damn shame) or, all MO cards need to be re-evaluated. I simply think that the latter won't happen anytime soon, but a simply leader buff would at least make MO more prevalent on the ladder, thus would reduce the mega-boringness that ranked is. Whenever MO was cometitive, it has always kept potentially cancerous decks at bay. Whenever MO wasn't even Tier 2, ranked was limited to 2-3 OP decks over and over again.

MO needs a comeback and it ain't gonna happen without serious buffs to leaders / rebalancing cards, just like CDPR did with Imlerith and Adda: Striga. Buffing leaders is just faster and easier.

Now, understand that, this is absolutely not a rant. I think in a vacuum, Monster faction is one of the most creative, fun and after the many patches / expansions still, one of the more balanced, non-toxic, non-cancerous factions in Gwent. It has its strengths and its weaknesses. Appropriate. Well designed. Enjoyable.

But, I say that again: things have been powercrept multiple times. Playing against any Harmony-included SC. Any replay-Scenarios-then-play-the-best-gold-cards-in-the-game-NR. Control, steal, remove, poison everything NG. Wait until last say and then one-trick-pony resurrect+combo Greatswords/Dagur SK.

 

[DRK3]

@StrongFirst I agree that MO provisions dont feel like they provide enough "bang for the buck", at least in regards to some of the most popular expensive MO cards.

And i also think Monsters is one of the weakest factions (if not the weakest) precisely for being the faction with the least amount of control (lore-wise it would make sense for it to be the one with the most, i guess).

I think if i was able to succeed with MO on Ranked was because of my playstyle, which caught people offguard - i hate tall units. I dont think i ever used Speartips, Yghern or Ozzrel, when you see those in every MO deck. I think MO players collectively have made life for themselves hard when they felt like they needed to put those cards in every deck, even if it was a deathwish deck or arachas deck. Those units are just too expensive and their vulnerability and predictability is what makes MO weak.

In the two MO deck i used, i never forsook control like MO players usually do - i had locks, a purify, thunders.
In one of them, i dont think i even had a single unit above 7pts (only the new awesome Imlerith, and MO Defender).
The other was a Ruehin consume deck, with like 10-12 bronze consumes to really distribute the points instead of accumulating them on a single unit.

And on a sidenote: yeah the new Adda: Striga is AMAZING, it's the type of midrange cards that can get a faction to T1, but Monsters is still taking its first steps now, with the latest patch rework.

TL;DR: Monster faction needs a buff, but meanwhile MO players must think outside the box and really analyze what cards are cost effective, and maybe focus a bit more on removal and control which is more reliable.

Post automatically merged: Feb 23, 2020

Karma is such a bitch...

After i suggested MO players should be more aggressive and use more removal now all i seem to face are Arachas Organic A-holes spamming Predatory dives, and all those other organic specials, never leaving anything alive on my side.

Arachas is my favourite MO leader, and it required a brain. I remember how in the early days of HC i would spend 6/7 turns just setting up the board for the last smashing 2/3 turns, now its just brainless point spam with the new Adrenaline Rush and Imlerith.

At least i had payback on a moron - i was using a meme NR deck, used Black Blood right at the end, he already used his Glustyworp (which i reset with Baron), so i assumed his last play would be Ozzrel. He had Naglfar! I thought "im screwed, he will use any other gold he probably still has on deck and will win, but he actually played Ozzrel, right into my Black Blood!

This is what im saying - Gwent players nowadays are like automated and just do what they always do and wont adapt into the situation and use whatever is in their heads...

 

[mazeebra]

Unseen Elder was the only scary monsters deck, then they nerfed him. That deck had some character and it was difficult to play against at times.

Not sure I agree that he needed to be changed, despite disliking playing against that deck personally.

Not sure how competitive Unseen Elder was before (I imagine it was quite), but now it doesn't seem good anymore.