That's kind of a broad question...what kind of balance are you looking for? Weapon balance? Build balance? Balance between the factions? There are already successful examples of how to properly balance gameplay like that out in the wild, as well as examples of how patently not to do things unless failure is the goal. All CDPR has to do is look at them all, take inspiration from what worked and avoid what didn't like the plague. You know, the exact opposite of what BioWare did with Anthem.
weapon balance, build balance, map balance, all of it. that has to be the fundamental basis. if it isn't balanced, its going to flop.
how do you account for various (especially non combat oriented) character builds? do we just whisk those aside for pre builts? ok, well that doesn't seem very true to the game. how do we handle level disparity? How do smart guns work? how do we decide weapon choice and availability? how do we balance the maps, if we're not making new, stand alone maps?
its a LOT to consider. you're going to likely have to strip things down a lot, but if you do that, that pulls it farther and farther away from the parent game.
and well, what examples of a similar thing in the wild are you referring to? Because I see nothing of the sort that doesn't exist in an MMO style system.
you're citing anthem as a guide on how not to do this, but its not even a PvP game, so how is it relevant?
I just notice many(not all) battle royal games being used to push boring-ass violence, mainly to kids, and then they get presented with options where a few dollars can get a better gun and like...a derpy costume.
It's totally shady.
I hear about these kids spending their parents money on straight up stupid in-game features and I am just...astonished. We are in a time where games are evolving and many studios take advantage of people, lots of times, kids because they are very impulsive.
I mean, literally the only difference is ease of paying for things, and parents not taking the time to make sure their wallets are secure. honestly, I don't blame kids or companies, this is on parents.
and you largely don't have them now, because most retailers wont stock them so they largely don't get made. AO games existed back then, you just didn't know because they weren't available to you.
Things like that are what even keep games from evolving. For instance, the nudity/censorship thing...I want pervy things in my game(!!!) because I am an adult. Why is that even an issue? They are everywhere in Japan, but anyone who hints at sexual things in games in the US is always put on a pitchfork.
they're also censored in Japan, and marketed explicitly as porn. no one in japan is making mainstream games with tons of nudity in them to be pervy. everything is either done in the porn world or not much at all. and no, Dead Or Alive doesn't count.
this isn't just the US. that amount of sex would get it either banned or very restricted ion most countries. The US actually has more lenient standards than a lot of places, including some European locales.
simply put, retailers wont stock AO games so that's just what it is.
I mean, most games DONT actually sell real upgrades. its all cosmetics.
I dunno, kids will always be a target audience of something. they have the most free time to spend.
But many people care, as they should. You may not be certain about it, but people who have experienced real crazy shit would much rather keep some of those things away from their kids as much as they can.
It's not up to me as an individual. I am going to expose my kids to what I think is right, don't worry about me. I know what they would be exposed to based on how lame I think it is, or how awesome. But I like extremes in things and most of it should not be exposed to kids.
Kids playing video games as a whole should not be coming across the same crazy things I look for in a game. It may be fine in some respects, but I would not want them to be exposed to porn/AO titles because I don't want them to associate porn with sex/love/reproduction.
I mean, literally the only difference is ease of paying for things, and parents not taking the time to make sure their wallets are secure. honestly, I don't blame kids or companies, this is on parents.
and you largely don't have them now, because most retailers wont stock them so they largely don't get made. AO games existed back then, you just didn't know because they weren't available to you.
they're also censored in Japan, and marketed explicitly as porn. no one in japan is making mainstream games with tons of nudity in them to be pervy. everything is either done in the porn world or not much at all. and no, Dead Or Alive doesn't count.
this isn't just the US. that amount of sex would get it either banned or very restricted ion most countries. The US actually has more lenient standards than a lot of places, including some European locales.
simply put, retailers wont stock AO games so that's just what it is.
If the demand is there, then things will show up. It would be nice if everyone in the US didn't freak out over things like what we see happening with 2077.
If they get banned, people will want them more, and get them somehow.
If the same pervy titles were released in the US they would not have pixelated blurs covering things. That is a fact.
Mainstream games in Japan may not have much pervy stuff in them, but there is a wide array of things there to choose from based on the culture and it's demand that are pervy AF. A lot of it is game based, but you don't see porn games in porn shops here. That demand is countered here in the US by the idea of video games being sold to young people, like they always have been. There is still an ingrained idea with the game industry being mainly for kids, it hasn't been that long since games became made for more adult audiences. Now that many kids, most that have always played games, are now adults the atmosphere around what is acceptable for games is changing.
PS: This back and forth banter has nothing to do with multiplayer at this point. If you want to talk more about these topics feel free to DM me.
Why would you jump on one of the worst trends to happen to games if you don't even play them?
And then hope it shows up in the biggest game to come out in your lifetime?
I'm pretty sure the best "battle royal" players are burnt out by now and only keep playing because it is what they are known for and it's easy for them.
The last game I played that has any resemblance to a "battle royal" was "Conkers Bad Fur Day" capture the flag more than a decade ago on the N64...that was fun...and I don't even know if that counts...but the stuff nowadays is made flashy and popular for kids...small humans...children. It's popular because it is easy, quick, and flashy. It is a trend that will die out soon and is only popular because most kids have been dumbed down, to the bone, by society.
CDPR does the exact opposite. They give people a mature story driven world which is one of the most reassuring things to happen in video games ever. I still can't believe they are making Cyberpunk...
Your opinion is welcome, but do you have any more ideas for the multiplayer?
I waiting for a mod to jump in and say: "Back on topic! Stfu about the battleroyal trash."
Ive told them to stay away from online space. Ive seen so many online gaming companies killed during my days, sure SP/offline gaming isnt much better either but its not as bad as online gaming, but CDPR has an excellent grip on that. Go big = GTA Online Go small = F2P Battleroyal. Thats what I think.
Ive told them to stay away from online space. Ive seen so many online gaming companies killed during my days, sure SP/offline gaming isnt much better either but its not as bad as online gaming, but CDPR has an excellent grip on that. Go big = GTA Online Go small = F2P Battleroyal. Thats what I think.
Whatever the case may be, I have watched some streamers play GTA RP and while I am not that big of a fan of the setting, it was still really cool to see the interactions between everyone. Like how most people were playing along with the narrative.
It was kind of always turning into a parody, but it was still interesting. If CDPR can have some kind of incentive for "playing along" during whatever the MP may be, then I think it would be cool. I really hope it isn't as cheesy, but I think that can be avoided a bit by always keeping people engaged and immersed as much as possible.
Hopefully there are a good number of people who want to take a MP seriously and live in NC like it was another life.
I'm thinking most of the real fans of 2077 will be "playing along" with the story and that the community will have to police itself enough to keep the story going.
Which brings me to another point. There should be some kind of incentives toward being on NCPD, being a police officer, so that the idiots who want to do GTA inspired things can always give them something to do. That would be a trip. @Metropolice would like this...probably become a Judge Dredd type of character real quick...
I guess I'm now (if not prior) famous enough to be associated with those kinds of ideas
But indeed, that type of gameplay in an online setting has its charme. At least I think that because I tried it myself in various online (light to heavier) RP environments, such as ARMA "life" servers with RPG elements, where people could and had to play cops to police other people. Or security roles.
If done right (or in a private community with private servers, letting you customize the way you want it) it's a lot of fun and it can be done immersively. The advantage I always see is that in such settings, players themselves generate the content and are thus "easy" on the 'maintenance' side of things, opposed to other sub-groups who may be more dependent on eventually new gameplay content or so.
In short, if you give people a "sandbox", they will make use of it.
(And yes, to be able to play some kind of cop role in a Dystopian / Cyberpunk setting has its charme, too, from the "vigilante type" to the crooked one.)
If done right (or in a private community with private servers, letting you customize the way you want it) it's a lot of fun and it can be done immersively. The advantage I always see is that in such settings, players themselves generate the content and are thus "easy" on the 'maintenance' side of things, opposed to other sub-groups who may be more dependent on eventually new gameplay content or so.
To share some of my more specific ideas about how Cyberpunk 2077 multiplayer could work, the game may start in some kind of social hub where the players get to hang out, chat with each other, check the list of available quests at hand and they can also compete in Cyberpunk 2077 minigames (so things like racing, fist fighting and shooting range) to kill time. Out of the different locations present in Night City, Afterlife wouldn't be half bad for a spot like that, thanks to the fact it's already divided into sections based on experience (which would serve as a reason for separating beginners from more experienced players), plus people tend to leave the informations about all sorts of jobs for Solo there, which could serve as a quest list.
First obviously the player creates their own character, puts points into starting attributes, like in base game, but then instead of a Life Path he picks the role. Some might say it's a pretty stupid idea to restrict player to just one role in an online game, but, similar to Cyberpunk 2020, the role would give him only one special ability that can be upgraded later on, while all the other general skills are available for everyone, which still provides the player with great amount of freedom when it comes to developing character. The roles that I can see as possible for this kind of gameplay are Solo (heavy combat role), Netrunner (the person responsible for playing with security terminals), Techie (setting traps, fixing stuff in-game, possibly using the drone), Med Techie (medic obviously), Cop (light combat role), Corporate Agent (thanks to his Resources ability plays a support role) and Nomad (possibly a driver, depending on the size of the maps). I'm not sure about the Media and Rockerboy.
Of course, the multiplayer won't be open world, so as opposed to Cyberpunk 2077, entire game might be hub based, so after picking the quest we are interested in or starting the minigame, we are being transported to appropriate isolated map somewhere in Night City. The gameplay is co-op based, so you need at least one more player to start the quest. The quests progressively shape into a narrative with occassional cutscenes and story choices, which are decided based on players votes and, if the result is indecisive, luck. The previous quests might be replayed, but with reduced reward and you don't get to participate in the story choices again after doing that once (unless you play as a new character).
The gameplay could be fairly similar to the one in the base game, so you get different handcrafted objectives, to which you can get using various paths based on the team's abilities. For completing quests you receive a cash that you can spend between missions on training to raise your skills, to buy a new gear, install new cyberware and purchase different useful items like Daemons and reflex boosters, which you can utilize later on. That's the gist of it.
weapon balance, build balance, map balance, all of it. that has to be the fundamental basis. if it isn't balanced, its going to flop.
how do you account for various (especially non combat oriented) character builds? do we just whisk those aside for pre builts? ok, well that doesn't seem very true to the game. how do we handle level disparity? How do smart guns work? how do we decide weapon choice and availability? how do we balance the maps, if we're not making new, stand alone maps?
its a LOT to consider. you're going to likely have to strip things down a lot, but if you do that, that pulls it farther and farther away from the parent game.
and well, what examples of a similar thing in the wild are you referring to? Because I see nothing of the sort that doesn't exist in an MMO style system.
you're citing anthem as a guide on how not to do this, but its not even a PvP game, so how is it relevant?
Another reason I'm against multiplayer, even though I'm playing along with this subject, is because of the constant need for developers to spend time and manpower balancing a multiplayer game because some players are always bitching for this weapon or this build to be "nerfed" in the name of balance. There's no real way around that because there will be players who confuse their overestimation of their skills and their underestimation of everyone else with certain weapons needing to be reduced in damage. Trying to balance weapons in a PvP multiplayer game is a quagmire developers never can escape.
Build balance, the easiest way to do that is max level pre-builds with a select pool of weapons to choose from to build loadouts with, which while some may not like it, actually does fit the idea of the tabletop Cyberpunk game as many a GM have used pre-build characters for campaigns, plus it isn't uncommon in multiplayer PvP. That would also prevent someone from doing something like choosing a noncombat oriented character build to participate in PvP multiplayer and then wondering why they keep dying, so bonus, I suppose? I'm pretty sure that if smart guns started off being allowed, there would be a major outcry to get rid of them ASAP. Map balance is subjective, but it has to be separate maps, or they can try their luck with sectioning off parts of the city, depending on how they design Night City. I mean, the Combat Zone should probably be set up for it, right? But playing sections of the map should be enough for PvP players...they seem to be fine with it in GTAV:O.
When I say "similar things in the wild", I'm speaking of games successfully handling PvP multiplayer, like the COD games, the Battlefield games, The Division games, etc. And you misunderstood what I said about Bioware and Anthem; Bioware had examples of what to do to make a good looter shooter with Anthem. However, rather than acknowledge that The Division and Destiny had already had their growing pains and worked on their games to make them better, and use their examples to figure out what to do and what not to do for Anthem? They chose to pretend that both games didn't exist and that they were going into unknown territory and committed every mistake that Bungie and Massive had made at first, plus some new ones, which resulted in the hot mess that is Anthem now. That's how Anthem is relevant to this; it's a cautionary tale about what happens when developers try to enter a genre they aren't known for and don't learn from the mistakes and successes of those who've gone before them, something I'm hoping CDPR doesn't do.
To tell you the truth, I don't like most police and won't be playing as a police officer if it is ever implemented in any of the titles, but I like the fact you know exactly what you want out of your character and you seem to want to live out the good traits of law enforcement. That is something that should stand as a good model for creating police officers for the MP. Yeah they will sway in various law abiding, or not so much ways, but that's all part of the story.
I would love to see them in the same vein as Trauma Team. Where they have a take no crap type of attitude, and are kinda fierce in how they deal with things. Kinda like what was hinted at in the very original trailer. That would give people a good incentive to play as them because most people right now may think of any kind of police officer as boring in a world of cyberpunks.
And always dealing with the people who just want to destroy things repeatedly is going to be one of the biggest challenges with a public MP situation.There will only be so much self- policing that the dire hard community will stand for.
I would love to see some kind of set up where a meter or something is always chipped away at if players are doing stupid things that make no sense for the story. They would slowly end up becoming a target for gangs and police. 2077MP doesn't sound fun if you are always having to hide from someone. That kind of incentive not "run over people all day" could quell that immature idea that the MP is just a GTA free for all.
Another reason I'm against multiplayer, even though I'm playing along with this subject, is because of the constant need for developers to spend time and manpower balancing a multiplayer game because some players are always bitching for this weapon or this build to be "nerfed" in the name of balance. There's no real way around that because there will be players who confuse their overestimation of their skills and their underestimation of everyone else with certain weapons needing to be reduced in damage. Trying to balance weapons in a PvP multiplayer game is a quagmire developers never can escape.
Yes, I absolutely hate this trend with MPs. It may have to happen in some regards, but I want to be able to build my character how I want and not have any corners cut due to my work at becoming better in certain fields, especially if I am a veteran to the game. Weapons are different, but I'm glad this is all being thrown out there. Hopefully CDPR is taking notes.
And @Shavod your last post sounds like taking a more "close to PnP" approach. Which is cool, but I really hope they shoot for a more open world type of atmosphere. That makes me think about: How will the MP actually feel???
Is it going to be a huge type of overstimulating feel, where you don't know exactly where you should start, or much more intimate? Like where players are focused mainly on what they are doing in their respective groups and teams while trying to get things done. I like both ideas and hope there is a balance found by CDPR.
I think they should keep the progressive nature for MP, almost like 400 meter sprint, or 800. But then do resets too. Players play, reset and they draw more people in, players play, reset and draw more people etc and see how long they can keep it going. Continuous online mode is really pain.
I believe it will be very cool to add Bullet Run's flavor into the mix. Bullet Run was quite an interesting multiplayer-shooter game. Unfortunately, it did not last. But the point is making Cyberpunk's multiplayer modes staged as reality TV show like Bullet Run is quite fitting with Cyberpunk's world setting. Bullet Run also had other fun stuff, so maybe it will serve as a good reference for Cyberpunk's multiplayer release.
hi there. well I'm looking forward to play this game. and I do like the way the campaign unfolds in single player mode but I really hope cyberpunk gets a multiplayer mode. with everything they have to offer. well i'm just gonna state some things I would like to see..
since we costumize our character in solo mode there's no need to apply any idea in that. but i will have some ideas about the tech upgrades wich I think they would be very funny if implemented. soooo I'll start from tthe beginning where you pick your avatar, get to know the game in a multiplayer perspective, and basically start playing.
-the game will have factions so player will have the chance if he wants to change from a faction to other without reseting the game, of course there will be faction points wich can be given by helping factions or players from those factions, aand since you can win faction points you can also lose them like changing faction or do activities that don't please a certain faction. also divide de map so that each faction has its safe zone and include neutral zones that factions can fight for.
-this is the best part. you can't choose a faction, you will have to be invited to join, and choose if you want to joinn or not.(you can turn out to be a lone wolf like I always prefer but it should be important to join factions so you can get unique upgrades and items, that can be found specifically working to a certain faction.
-players got to have the chance of having living places to safe stash, weapons, vehicles, clothes, and all kinds of stuff they will pick up by loot or scavange( i'll get to that later). living places can go from microlofts, to penthhouses if you have credits to purchase them. players will have to watch out if they are wanted by cops or anybody else, so keeping where you live out of sight of enemies is very important, not because you can be captured or killd but robbed, yes give the chance to enter other players home ( wich will be extremely dificult because there can be house upgrades like security, where alrm is triggered and cops show by, wich also can be hacked so the alarm doesnt trigger too quickly). for ex: imagine there is high-rated player with loads of stuff and a player joined with 3 to 4 more players get to find where this high-rated player lives...you can figure out the rest x) ....but don't forget the player can be online or even at home...depending on the appartment security upgrade the player can be warned or be there already waiting.
-social comunication between players is very important. that's why social areas, and comunicators like cellphones or something like that must exist. please don't make a player be able to talk with another if they are each one in diferent corners of the map, they will have to comunicate with some type of comunicator.
-in social areas will be much more easy to make trades or buy stuff like weapons and other stuff of higher levels. also a good chance to schedule side missions like races, fights, or any other type of side jobs. and also to keep the players socializing with each other....this place will be protected with security...but at anytime if a player is skilled enough and wants to "break the party "to someone he can always try . social areas can be a bar, nighclub, city squares. anyplace wich will involve a lot of npcs to give the players the feeling they have to act normal.
-side jobs like races, fistfights,deathmatches and other type of side jobs have to run by lobby but not the neutral zones so that factions fight for it, straight in the game with no loading sequences.
-weapons and vehicles should recieve upgrades either and the game itself should have dlc including new weapons and vehicles as also new tech and clothes for players choice... whats makes a good rpg is the variety of stuff you can do and have.
- in what concerns the avatar, tech also has got to have upgrade and new releasing tech. new tech can be purcchased in stores or illegal surgeon if you get to know it, expensive but better, but if you do this make sure players search the game for those illegal surgeons. 2 or 3 different surgeons should be enough one with specific upgrades.
-in PvP. . .I think tha farm other players stuf is important to all players for winning credits by selling the stuff they pick as also to upgrade themselfs with what they get by killing other player... sometimes tech can be higher than the players level, so he can decide either he keep it to use later or sell itt to buy credits. if a player gets stolen from other one, that player can end in problematic situation or even lose all he had, that's why create a insurance policy for what the player have is important.. by spending some credits you can have it all again, but in what concerns tech attetched to body only.
implement some kind of tracking system to look for players if theyr causing too much heat on themselfs, wich will include bounties.
.....i hope you eenjoy the ideas and sorry for the bad english, also I apologize if I didn't specify terms or didnt call things by its name, and the ideas are nothing that you haven't think about for singleplayer mode.
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I hope that multiplayer mode keeps the conections between roles as we play it....it would be very cool to need some upgrade and meet a friend that would be a techie that as unique gear to sell.... also create new gear...or call him in some troubling situation where I need him to meet me...like being a media if possible.. reporting dangerous players in the map by marking them so other players get to know them... what I mean with this is that all this roles are important in game:
I believe it will be very cool to add Bullet Run's flavor into the mix. Bullet Run was quite an interesting multiplayer-shooter game. Unfortunately, it did not last. But the point is making Cyberpunk's multiplayer modes staged as reality TV show like Bullet Run is quite fitting with Cyberpunk's world setting. Bullet Run also had other fun stuff, so maybe it will serve as a good reference for Cyberpunk's multiplayer release.
Hmm, Im thinking more like Fatalities or Kill Shots would be shown around the city. Or does that make Cyberpunk too savage. But make TV-shpw about MP isnt definitely bad idea.
I hope it's coop, , 4 players against super awesome enemies and do some simple objectives
complete character customization with many careers / skills to choose
like in Vermintide 2 or Mass Effect 3 coop mode
I hope it's coop, , 4 players against super awesome enemies and do some simple objectives
complete character customization with many careers / skills to choose
like in Vermintide 2 or Mass Effect 3 coop mode
Another reason I'm against multiplayer, even though I'm playing along with this subject, is because of the constant need for developers to spend time and manpower balancing a multiplayer game because some players are always bitching for this weapon or this build to be "nerfed" in the name of balance. There's no real way around that because there will be players who confuse their overestimation of their skills and their underestimation of everyone else with certain weapons needing to be reduced in damage. Trying to balance weapons in a PvP multiplayer game is a quagmire developers never can escape.
Build balance, the easiest way to do that is max level pre-builds with a select pool of weapons to choose from to build loadouts with, which while some may not like it, actually does fit the idea of the tabletop Cyberpunk game as many a GM have used pre-build characters for campaigns, plus it isn't uncommon in multiplayer PvP. That would also prevent someone from doing something like choosing a noncombat oriented character build to participate in PvP multiplayer and then wondering why they keep dying, so bonus, I suppose? I'm pretty sure that if smart guns started off being allowed, there would be a major outcry to get rid of them ASAP. Map balance is subjective, but it has to be separate maps, or they can try their luck with sectioning off parts of the city, depending on how they design Night City. I mean, the Combat Zone should probably be set up for it, right? But playing sections of the map should be enough for PvP players...they seem to be fine with it in GTAV:O.
When I say "similar things in the wild", I'm speaking of games successfully handling PvP multiplayer, like the COD games, the Battlefield games, The Division games, etc. And you misunderstood what I said about Bioware and Anthem; Bioware had examples of what to do to make a good looter shooter with Anthem. However, rather than acknowledge that The Division and Destiny had already had their growing pains and worked on their games to make them better, and use their examples to figure out what to do and what not to do for Anthem? They chose to pretend that both games didn't exist and that they were going into unknown territory and committed every mistake that Bungie and Massive had made at first, plus some new ones, which resulted in the hot mess that is Anthem now. That's how Anthem is relevant to this; it's a cautionary tale about what happens when developers try to enter a genre they aren't known for and don't learn from the mistakes and successes of those who've gone before them, something I'm hoping CDPR doesn't do.
Maybe, but it's a different kind. In multiplayer, it's usually demands to get something nerfed, but in single-player it's usually requests for stuff to be buffed. But, the point is moot at this stage...multiplayer may or may not be a thing, and since I'm buying on GOG, even if multiplayer happens and nerf requests go down? I can just rollback updates.
Maybe, but it's a different kind. In multiplayer, it's usually demands to get something nerfed, but in single-player it's usually requests for stuff to be buffed. But, the point is moot at this stage...multiplayer may or may not be a thing, and since I'm buying on GOG, even if multiplayer happens and nerf requests go down? I can just rollback updates.
That would be true for competitive, PVP multiplayer. It makes sense in competitive, PVP multiplayer because... it's competitive. Perfect balance is obviously a much smaller issue in SP games. It's also a much smaller issue in MP when the MP isn't specifically designed to be competitive.
The issue I see here is it's ridiculously difficult to roll competitive, PVP multiplayer and "RPG" game play together. I don't think it's realistic to expect CP2077 MP to be competitive MP like you would find in a competitive online shooter. It is much more reasonable to expect it to be... co-op. I'm thinking along the lines of the MP in the original NWN. You get a handful of people together, form a group and play through a set story-line/campaign/whatever. The other option is dumping those players into the same game world with no real knowledge of where/what the other players are doing until they naturally bump into each other (think MMO but at a much smaller scale). Both of these are very different from matching players together with the sole purpose of pitting them against each other.
