My humble suggestion for Cyberpunk

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Since pretty much everybody has posted about every possible aspect of the game, I will just focus on one minor nuissance that I think CDPR should tackle in a subsequent game (i'm not even going to ask for DLC and/or expansion): you should focus who is the target audience that you want to sell your game and accept you are not going to be able to satisfy EVERYBODY. If you try that, you are going to have more people unhappy.

I'm not going to complain about cybergta,sandbox,infinite branches,turn based or skill checks but of two design decisions that try to made everybody happy and I think they backfired:

-Clothing and armor: your source material has a nice table that states that full combat gear protects more than a kevlar made bikini. The way its implenented in CP2077 (clothing + mods) you wanted to satisfy two different kind of gamers and ended with both sides dissatisfied: people is asking for transmog and theres people who don't see why guards are in full battle armor and not in casual dress (at least on fridays).

-Character characterization/leveling(no,the character is not a 3D rendering is all those numbers): I was not expecting a translation if Interlock or Fuzzion tabletop systems, since i understand that combining 1st person real time with aiming stats(reflexes+gun skill) can create player frustation (i'm hitting the target and my bullets don't register!), i would have liked some dialog gating by skills but i understand most people don't like that (so its my problem to play other games searching for that).
But the real problem with the system is not what is used (attributes,skills,perks) , the problem is that you get too many points(or too little for others) in attributes and perks(70 in attributes and 80s to 110s in perks?) which causes that when you reach lvl50 talking about builds is a little bit fuzzy... on top of that you provided a perk reset item and later by popular demand directly reset at character screen.You still have people asking for attribute and skill reset and people complaining that they cannot max out everything.

Basically the level cap and limit of attribute/perk points is so high that build planning is not sensical for some and too restrictive for others.

I don't want to go about "this is/is not RPG" or "RPG depth" and i don't want to self-cite my own half-joke post about what is a RPG. The point is, the same way that for story a consistent decision regarding the endings was done (no happy forever,win all...which was not a popular decision for all) there are parts of the mechanics that i think nobody dared to take that decision in order to try to hit a wider gamer base, which i think ended up not making anybody happy at all.
 

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Basically the level cap and limit of attribute/perk points is so high that build planning is not sensical for some and too restrictive for others.
Hear, hear. I'd prefer lower level cap and game nudging you towards mastering one or two attributes, but they're probably going to raise it further when expansions come out, because it's relatively easy to reach level 50 in base game.
Good suggestion for the future, nevertheless.
 
Basically the level cap and limit of attribute/perk points is so high that build planning is not sensical for some and too restrictive for others.
Funny you talk about that, because about perk point I always finish with some "extra" points who I really don't know where I can put (now, in 1.3, level 48 and 6 point "in waiting" and even more to earn).
 
Hear, hear. I'd prefer lower level cap and game nudging you towards mastering one or two attributes, but they're probably going to raise it further when expansions come out, because it's relatively easy to reach level 50 in base game.
Good suggestion for the future, nevertheless.
Thanks, probably not the 1st one to express that or the last one but is my main nuisance. And I also levitate towards limited mastering (that I reckon in single player without party based needs good quest design to avoid blocking progress, but now we are not in that case by any means).
I also fear that expansions will raise level, so the "problem" will be worse (for me).
I was doing some quick maths, and basically with the number of attributes and perks probably granting 1 point every level and 2 points at each 5th or 4th (didn´t spend much time frankly speaking, so if you replicate on pen and paper and doesn´t make sense probably you are right) that you can allocate freely in attributes or perks (keep skills as they are) you probably make it a more "reasonable" leveling system. I saw some other people suggesting 1 attribute point every other level instead than at each level but feels to me you are killing the "sense" of progression.
One way or another, and regardless of all the development process or engine issues,or story... this stuff should be written even before writing a single piece of code in the pre-production stage (and probably they did), so is purely a design decision not a technical issue.
Funny you talk about that, because about perk point I always finish with some "extra" points who I really don't know where I can put (now, in 1.3, level 48 and 6 point "in waiting" and even more to earn).
Yes, and you can probably "save" allocating attribute points in almost any build and you will not notice past a certain level.
 
But the real problem with the system is not what is used (attributes,skills,perks) , the problem is that you get too many points(or too little for others) in attributes and perks(70 in attributes and 80s to 110s in perks?) which causes that when you reach lvl50 talking about builds is a little bit fuzzy... on top of that you provided a perk reset item and later by popular demand directly reset at character screen.You still have people asking for attribute and skill reset and people complaining that they cannot max out everything.

Basically the level cap and limit of attribute/perk points is so high that build planning is not sensical for some and too restrictive for others.
I'm quite casual gamer and CP 2077 has been quite a good experience for me. I have done 3 playthroughs, first one was 100% completion, second about 97% completion and last one 99,9% completion (one GIG I didn't do). While this experience gives me certain insight, it's also presents a problem as according to achievement stats completing even single district in game has been unlocked only by ~2% of players. Meanwhile completion of main story is outstandingly high, about 26% according to achievement stats. This tells that way I have played the game is experience of ~2% players.

It's very safe to assume that most players V don't reach level 50 but it's difficult for me to estimate on what level players V in general tend to be when they reach Nocturne Op 55N1. That said, things that may appears small may come annoyances, most obvious offender is Athletics skill progression that still at version 1.3 would require at least ~7 hours dedicated air punching or similar activity to level up 20, while there might be players who do that, these are outliers, even on 99,9% run I couldn't raise Athletics above level 9 or 10. That meant missing 3 perk points, +100 lbs carrying weight bonus and 5-10% health bonus for my V that had 16 Body.

Where this leads to:
- There is very good synergy with Athletics and Street Brawling. There are few boxing challenges in game so investing to Body / Athletics/ Street Brawling may appear very good idea and it actually is as my first V had 20 body and I used so called Kerenzikov glitch to level up Athletics to max. While some perks didn't worked with version 1.06 carrying capacity (more about that later) extra stamina and perk points from Skill progression made that build very good experience, especially as I was also carrying a shotgun (Body / Annihilation).

Now when this doesn't work, as it's now players can't know it, so when they notice that skill progression is very slow, but want to have certain perks unlocked for synergy with Street Brawling the answer is doing other stuff. Use grenades, use blades and invest perk points from leveling from those skill to unlock perks they are actually interested, that are under Body.

For average gamer, we are not talking about level 50 build here, like mentioned before. Feeling of progressing in game, leveling up their character, while workaround works, it also creates other problem. They are doing something they didn't intend to, something they are not necessarily that interesting and over time it takes more and more effort and sacrificing their time for activities that aren't their primary interest.

Carrying capacity skill reward is again an issue. Sure player can invest to "Pack Mule" perk, but then that's another perk point used in Skill that skill reward progression isn't working. So that leads to another thing, they may get cyberware to get better compensation for lacking 100 lbs carry bonus, but that's another less than ideal compromise. There are only two slots. Boxing build could ideally use Dense Marrow and Microvibration (damage) Generator, now they are sacrificing either of those for Titanium Bones (carrying capacity). There are other combinations, but lack of practical method for players to have their V get 100 lbs skill reward is always there and decisions overshadowed by that, need to make a compromise that shouldn't happen.

There are other factors like player perhaps picking up perk like Commando (cannot be detected underwater) as it's logical to think that when that feature is in game, there will be use for that, while the reality is that there really isn't. This isn't that much of an issue at the moment though (see #3 in list below).

CP 2077 is the best video game I have ever played and I started on Commodore 64. That said, these things that may appear small for 2% are can be quite a bid deal typical player.
  1. System has inconsistency. It's planned to work like punch people, get better at punching (trough skill rewards a s perks) Except that it always isn't. Player needs to do something else to get perks unlocked in a game that isn't build for that kind of system. There are only so many missions and grinding random mobs is not activity most players will find engaging for long.
  2. Experience becomes saturated with engaging in activities that are not primary focus and not how players intended to play the game with their vision of V. Working on unrelated tasks to primary goal can get overtime unrewarding and even very good game can start feeling tedious experience.
  3. There's also a time budget for players. While Covid situation did change things for many, people still study, work, date, have social relationships and are interested in other activities. Time players spent in-game activities not related to their primary goals regarding their planned character build are all non-quality time perhaps better used in other activity. Resetting Perk Points is convenient and important workaround regarding that for now at least.
As casual who somehow ended in ~2% I don't think system in CP 2077 is bad at all. I very much value how things work. It's not just some number that changes. Punches actually come faster and hit harder, there is more stamina to spend which allows more tactical opportunities, add some mods to clothing and lot's of boxing comes surprisingly close to actual thing where it's leg work that's it's been said is very important.

Player can build cool rockerboy, or cyber ninja/samurai. Cool related perks and skill progression rewards work out just fine (let's forget Commando for now) and if player chooses to take that kind of approach they can take that all way further by Lynx Paws cyberware (move silently) and now Optical Camo (limited time invisibility) and then start investing to Reflexes/Blades and that build would be again would be all practical gameplay fun similar way to boxer/brawler. Meanwhile Rockerboy can invest to land silently clothing mod and invest to Handguns under Reflexes and that works too.

It's IMO quite possible that there are players that don't discover these IMO very cool features because dealing with some inconsistency throws throws them off and if so that's really a pity as I appreciate way much more practical things progression system enables than playing the character menu. It's not just this game, I really liked the Outer Worlds that is closest one I can think from recent games that could be compared to CP 2077 but I appreciated it for it's writing and it was great relief for me that I could focus just on couple of weapon skills and then practically forget playing the character menu and just enjoy the story.
 
Yes, and you can probably "save" allocating attribute points in almost any build and you will not notice past a certain level.
Technically I think if all the points earned in specific skills were removed from level 12-14, it wouldn't change much for a "specific" build :)
But I don't know if you end up with "too many" perk points, if you choose a balanced build (like level 12 everywhere).
And even with specific build, generally there is an "infinite" perk (at level 20) where you can spend as many perk point as you want (like in QH skill).
 
I'm quite casual gamer and CP 2077 has been quite a good experience for me. I have done 3 playthroughs, first one was 100% completion, second about 97% completion and last one 99,9% completion (one GIG I didn't do). While this experience gives me certain insight, it's also presents a problem as according to achievement stats completing even single district in game has been unlocked only by ~2% of players. Meanwhile completion of main story is outstandingly high, about 26% according to achievement stats. This tells that way I have played the game is experience of ~2% players.

It's very safe to assume that most players V don't reach level 50 but it's difficult for me to estimate on what level players V in general tend to be when they reach Nocturne Op 55N1. That said, things that may appears small may come annoyances, most obvious offender is Athletics skill progression that still at version 1.3 would require at least ~7 hours dedicated air punching or similar activity to level up 20, while there might be players who do that, these are outliers, even on 99,9% run I couldn't raise Athletics above level 9 or 10. That meant missing 3 perk points, +100 lbs carrying weight bonus and 5-10% health bonus for my V that had 16 Body.

Where this leads to:
- There is very good synergy with Athletics and Street Brawling. There are few boxing challenges in game so investing to Body / Athletics/ Street Brawling may appear very good idea and it actually is as my first V had 20 body and I used so called Kerenzikov glitch to level up Athletics to max. While some perks didn't worked with version 1.06 carrying capacity (more about that later) extra stamina and perk points from Skill progression made that build very good experience, especially as I was also carrying a shotgun (Body / Annihilation).

Now when this doesn't work, as it's now players can't know it, so when they notice that skill progression is very slow, but want to have certain perks unlocked for synergy with Street Brawling the answer is doing other stuff. Use grenades, use blades and invest perk points from leveling from those skill to unlock perks they are actually interested, that are under Body.

For average gamer, we are not talking about level 50 build here, like mentioned before. Feeling of progressing in game, leveling up their character, while workaround works, it also creates other problem. They are doing something they didn't intend to, something they are not necessarily that interesting and over time it takes more and more effort and sacrificing their time for activities that aren't their primary interest.

Carrying capacity skill reward is again an issue. Sure player can invest to "Pack Mule" perk, but then that's another perk point used in Skill that skill reward progression isn't working. So that leads to another thing, they may get cyberware to get better compensation for lacking 100 lbs carry bonus, but that's another less than ideal compromise. There are only two slots. Boxing build could ideally use Dense Marrow and Microvibration (damage) Generator, now they are sacrificing either of those for Titanium Bones (carrying capacity). There are other combinations, but lack of practical method for players to have their V get 100 lbs skill reward is always there and decisions overshadowed by that, need to make a compromise that shouldn't happen.

There are other factors like player perhaps picking up perk like Commando (cannot be detected underwater) as it's logical to think that when that feature is in game, there will be use for that, while the reality is that there really isn't. This isn't that much of an issue at the moment though (see #3 in list below).

CP 2077 is the best video game I have ever played and I started on Commodore 64. That said, these things that may appear small for 2% are can be quite a bid deal typical player.
  1. System has inconsistency. It's planned to work like punch people, get better at punching (trough skill rewards a s perks) Except that it always isn't. Player needs to do something else to get perks unlocked in a game that isn't build for that kind of system. There are only so many missions and grinding random mobs is not activity most players will find engaging for long.
  2. Experience becomes saturated with engaging in activities that are not primary focus and not how players intended to play the game with their vision of V. Working on unrelated tasks to primary goal can get overtime unrewarding and even very good game can start feeling tedious experience.
  3. There's also a time budget for players. While Covid situation did change things for many, people still study, work, date, have social relationships and are interested in other activities. Time players spent in-game activities not related to their primary goals regarding their planned character build are all non-quality time perhaps better used in other activity. Resetting Perk Points is convenient and important workaround regarding that for now at least.
As casual who somehow ended in ~2% I don't think system in CP 2077 is bad at all. I very much value how things work. It's not just some number that changes. Punches actually come faster and hit harder, there is more stamina to spend which allows more tactical opportunities, add some mods to clothing and lot's of boxing comes surprisingly close to actual thing where it's leg work that's it's been said is very important.

Player can build cool rockerboy, or cyber ninja/samurai. Cool related perks and skill progression rewards work out just fine (let's forget Commando for now) and if player chooses to take that kind of approach they can take that all way further by Lynx Paws cyberware (move silently) and now Optical Camo (limited time invisibility) and then start investing to Reflexes/Blades and that build would be again would be all practical gameplay fun similar way to boxer/brawler. Meanwhile Rockerboy can invest to land silently clothing mod and invest to Handguns under Reflexes and that works too.

It's IMO quite possible that there are players that don't discover these IMO very cool features because dealing with some inconsistency throws throws them off and if so that's really a pity as I appreciate way much more practical things progression system enables than playing the character menu. It's not just this game, I really liked the Outer Worlds that is closest one I can think from recent games that could be compared to CP 2077 but I appreciated it for it's writing and it was great relief for me that I could focus just on couple of weapon skills and then practically forget playing the character menu and just enjoy the story.
I think you are less "casual" even than me if you counted for completion clearing NCPD because I didn´t do that a single a time, I'm not sure about district (maybe once, but unintended). I always hit point of no return around level 30 (add maybe 5 levels if in very hard) with all endings available and plenty of gigs not done, I can imagine many people who rush through main quest might end up there at level 20? Still, I think that this is more related with difficulty settings (enemy AI, enemies cannot counteract some player tactics... its difficult stuff also from dev perspective, balance difficutly without relying on bullet sponges or regenerating enemies) than with character progressions systems.

For the broken perks, its bad from CDPR to release inconsistent systems or directly broken perks... still, says something about unbalanced systems or overpowered progression if it doesn´t sent you back to the character creation screen after investing a good amount of points (this is also balancing on the progression system, there are games that you need a build simulator-well,excel suffices-to don´t screw up your game if you don´t budget points with 100% precision --> also bad imho).

I'm not arguing the quality of the game and I like build flexibility and non-linear gameplay, I'm not even saying that this nuisance should be solved for me or a minority that feels like me. But for me, after playing quite a lot of hours of tabletop ( I think that I spent like 90% of my high school weekends playing tabletop) and computer RPGs the system doesn´t feel right and seems to target two kind of public while not satisfying anybody.
Technically I think if all the points earned in specific skills were removed from level 12-14, it wouldn't change much for a "specific" build :)
But I don't know if you end up with "too many" perk points, if you choose a balanced build (like level 12 everywhere).
And even with specific build, generally there is an "infinite" perk (at level 20) where you can spend as many perk point as you want (like in QH skill).
Its my feeling, level 20 or 25 if you don´t do much grinding as me (don´t make me check, but I don´t think that at level 50 I ever maxed my main skill... because I swapped mid-game-like Widowmaker to silent revolver, because I can-). I end always pretty much with jack of all trades build-with cyberdeck instead of Santestivan even if not playing netrunning oriented-, because it gives you 5 or 10 extra levels were difficulty curve seems right (not always dying, not always winning).
 
Its my feeling, level 20 or 25 if you don´t do much grinding as me (don´t make me check, but I don´t think that at level 50 I ever maxed my main skill... because I swapped mid-game-like Widowmaker to silent revolver, because I can-). I end always pretty much with jack of all trades build-with cyberdeck instead of Santestivan even if not playing netrunning oriented-, because it gives you 5 or 10 extra levels were difficulty curve seems right (not always dying, not always winning).
I think, like you said, it's a choice at the start from CDPR (maybe not good, i don't know).
But mostly for "new" players, who can experiment "more" things (hence the new "easy" reset button in 1.3). Basically they preferred to give "too much" points than "not enough".
So in my opinion, for someone who has never played the game (or even who is not used to having to "build" their character), it seems better suited. But when as me, you already know from the beginning, where you're going to spend your points (and obviously where not to put them), you're sure to end up with "too many" points :)
 
I think you are less "casual" even than me if you counted for completion clearing NCPD because I didn´t do that a single a time, I'm not sure about district (maybe once, but unintended). I always hit point of no return around level 30 (add maybe 5 levels if in very hard) with all endings available and plenty of gigs not done, I can imagine many people who rush through main quest might end up there at level 20? Still, I think that this is more related with difficulty settings (enemy AI, enemies cannot counteract some player tactics... its difficult stuff also from dev perspective, balance difficutly without relying on bullet sponges or regenerating enemies) than with character progressions systems.

For the broken perks, its bad from CDPR to release inconsistent systems or directly broken perks... still, says something about unbalanced systems or overpowered progression if it doesn´t sent you back to the character creation screen after investing a good amount of points (this is also balancing on the progression system, there are games that you need a build simulator-well,excel suffices-to don´t screw up your game if you don´t budget points with 100% precision --> also bad imho).

I'm not arguing the quality of the game and I like build flexibility and non-linear gameplay, I'm not even saying that this nuisance should be solved for me or a minority that feels like me. But for me, after playing quite a lot of hours of tabletop ( I think that I spent like 90% of my high school weekends playing tabletop) and computer RPGs the system doesn´t feel right and seems to target two kind of public while not satisfying anybody.
CP 2077 has been quite something... different. That said, Covid enabled this experimentation for me. I haven't played any single player story driven game this much since the first Deus Ex. The Outer Worlds was good, very good, but I'm not going to dissect that here. For CP 2077 it comes down to many things that are in narrative. World it portrays, sometimes crime, gang violence is just that, sometimes violence is for business reasons, sometimes it's triggered by poor impulse control and so on. A lot of NCDP stuff looks like it's lifted from actual police cases. But there are really a ton of things and it really goes way back to the cyberpunk literature, Neuromancer by William Gibson was really huge deal for me back in the day, even if it was technically outdated (Gibson wrote that on typewriter) there was something interconnecting with our reality at the time that really spoke to me. I didn't went to play games, I read more books though but besides fiction I started finding out more about economy and other real life stuff like that. That has served me pretty well over the decades so yeah, I have a bit of special relationship with cyberpunk genre or old works at least, where you couldn't always tell, in which reality some motion had happened or in process, that or ours?

Broken perks, that's past AFAIK. And in general you are addressing my post past the point I was trying to make. I finished the game I started playing with version day 1 and finished with version 1.06 just fine. I even went and tried other two ending options available for my V on 1.061 on Xbox One X. End game build, level 50 so did many others (even then completion stats on Xbox and Playstation were a bit above 20%) so lot's of people played the game, enjoyed it, regardless of broken perks. Quite a few of us didn't even notice that there were lots of perks that weren't working. I think it's that Attribute and Skill progression rewards were still working and that contributed to feeling of progression and that there was platform independent work around available for Athletics skill progress issue.

End game build, for a few of us it was level 50 build, for some its like you point out and what I about estimated, level 20 to 30. What matters is that build is good enough to complete challenges game present, even better if that can be done using done playing style, how player created character to solve problems / challenges and for most part that seems to be working. It's not about end game build that we play few hours, but all those hours we spent getting there and that's why I highlight Athletics skill and provided all those examples and because someone who plays low body character and isn't interested about boxing challenges, they never even realize that there's problem there because other skill rewards are progressing in way that rewards are achievable by normal means of playing, way most people can feel it's intuitive and that also contributes to feel of progression.

There are oddities, say Tech/Crafting investing 12 Attribute points enables crafting Epic items but Epic blueprint rewards are unlocked only after investing 13 attribute points but I don't know how much that matters as Tech 12 can get character pretty far.

Tabletop, I only looked up few things from CP 2020 rulebook for suggestions I have posted earlier but I haven't went to tables or character creation or that. For me tabletop looked something like clever way to cover things done by young people at the time. What comes to systems and that, I'm not that invested to that. For me that systems don't create dissonance or come to way of narrative but can sometimes enable something in narrative (there are few situations in CP 2077 where fight can be avoided by simple having high Body or Street Credit. It's perhaps more a matter of design taking clever advantage of system, I mean finally someone had brains to through with that! Because this is something that makes sense and is rewarding experience for me in player side of things.
 
I don´t want to drift about quality of story really or what the game do good or bad, because I like and there is ton of posts about it elsewhere. But you made couple of comments that link with my original intend:
End game build, for a few of us it was level 50 build, for some its like you point out and what I about estimated, level 20 to 30.
Thats related with @ooodrin comment about lower level cap, if you estimate your average player will end up at level 20 or 30... just limit the cap at this level and increase 5 or 10 levels at each expansion. I didn´t do a very deep analysis, but I think around level 20 to 25 you are already a specialist. Level 50 cap, is a design decision by CDPR.
other skill rewards are progressing in way that rewards are achievable by normal means of playing, way most people can feel it's intuitive and that also contributes to feel of progression.
I'm not arguing about a skill progression by practice (you can find people in the post about RPGness of the game very vocal against that, not me). I agree is a system that makes intuitive to feel progression and even allows the flexibility to swap style later without losing points that you need to allocate for skills ( you get a dip in effectiveness maybe, but you can grind a little bit if needed). My point is about the other 2/3 of the mechanics:attributes and perks, that you get simply too many points.
The Outer Worlds was good, very good, but I'm not going to dissect that here
Tabletop, I only looked up few things from CP 2020 rulebook for suggestions I have posted earlier but I haven't went to tables or character creation or that. For me tabletop looked something like clever way to cover things done by young people at the time. What comes to systems and that, I'm not that invested to that.
Sorry for the jumpy quoting, but I think is bit relevant. I didn´t play (yet, my backlog of games is growing but my time is limited-as everybody I guess-) but just doing a quick search it looks like good old S.P.E.C.I.A.L Fallout system with slight changes, which is not surprising taking into account who made the game (Obsidian that did Fallout New Vegas and come right from Black Isle and as game directors the original team of Fallout 1)... this per se doesn´t tell you a lot maybe.

But if you look at what the S.P.E.C.I.A.L system is, is basically heavily inspired by tabletop G.U.R.P.S system since originally Fallout was going to use a license of G.U.R.P.S then the deal fall appart and they ended up with S.P.E.C.I.A.L.
Even if you don´t realize, good bunch of RPG games use either licensed tabletop systems (some maybe too strict implementation, that normally doesn´t work in computer that well because ther is not game master to bend the rules) or if for licensing issues or legal reasons that is not possible "original" systems heavy influenced by existing systems are used.

In general, even if for computer you can say "I'm not invested in the details of the underlying system" the game designer put some (or a lot) thought in it .

For me that systems don't create dissonance or come to way of narrative but can sometimes enable something in narrative (there are few situations in CP 2077 where fight can be avoided by simple having high Body or Street Credit. It's perhaps more a matter of design taking clever advantage of system, I mean finally someone had brains to through with that! Because this is something that makes sense and is rewarding experience for me in player side of things.
Not sure what is really new here?, you can find plenty of computer RPGs that use the underlying systems to offer multiple solutions to a situation. You can search this forum for people complaining that there are actually very few cases in this game, or people complaining that dialog should have used more of the systems behind... its not my main nuisance as I said initially (I mean AAA game, cost that much, need to hit that many sales to get profit --> you cannot expect a game whose game mechanics are overly complicated).

So in the specific case of CP2077, my nuisance is that either because the level cap is too high or that you get points too often the system breaks way before the level cap and this doesn´t look like a bug to me not catched by in-house tester... you just need a piece of paper to realize that and comes from a studio decision.

Or to word in other ways : if you offer a character progression system it needs to be in such a way that by end level you can feel a difference based on the decisions that you take, if not or you just went through randomly distributing points past some level, why do you even implement that system?
I think, like you said, it's a choice at the start from CDPR (maybe not good, i don't know).
But mostly for "new" players, who can experiment "more" things (hence the new "easy" reset button in 1.3). Basically they preferred to give "too much" points than "not enough".
So in my opinion, for someone who has never played the game (or even who is not used to having to "build" their character), it seems better suited. But when as me, you already know from the beginning, where you're going to spend your points (and obviously where not to put them), you're sure to end up with "too many" points :)
Agree, and thats why I think that they tried to hit two target gamers at the same time and missed both of them.
 
I don´t want to drift about quality of story really or what the game do good or bad, because I like and there is ton of posts about it elsewhere. But you made couple of comments that link with my original intend.
Thats related with @ooodrin comment about lower level cap, if you estimate your average player will end up at level 20 or 30... just limit the cap at this level and increase 5 or 10 levels at each expansion. I didn´t do a very deep analysis, but I think around level 20 to 25 you are already a specialist. Level 50 cap, is a design decision by CDPR.
Quality of story is relevant because people who play game because they find some system per se interesting are niche and tabletop RPG's are niche form of entertainment compared to video games. Video games enables lot's of automation and abstraction for things that I'm not that interested per se, but I can appreciate if they enable for me to do something in semi-transparent way. I posted examples of boxing/brawling and stealth builds in post earlier, Excel stuff enables us to enjoy the story and experience it different ways without doing Excel. It's great software, it enables many things, but it sucks for story.

What comes to too many perk points and that game is geared for players reaching end game at level 20 - 30. I don't see that is a problem at all and what comes to the rest of it, it's player choice if we continue via exploration or purpose to level up our character. I don't feel that there's any need to rewrite the system but offer harder challenges via harder difficulty levels which requite players to take better advantage of perks.

I don't say your feedback and suggestions are invalid but they appear to come down to that you think system needs to be changed because game becomes too easy. There's been very good suggestions related how to improve difficulty via better enemy NPC cyberware, there are other options too. You have one example of Tech weapon stuff, but that alone doesn't help me to pin down any more details. Perks aren't equal, say Cool/Hidden Dragon is very situational while Cool/Crouching Tiger is beneficial for any Stealth scenario. It would help if you could break it down more, which ones make you feel character becomes over powered but... If we have weapons that can shot enemies through walls, perk system is just icing the cake there because in the end I see it coming down to headshots either taking enemies down with one shot, which is how it for the most parts works (level scaling can create iffy situations) or you have a system that is illogical and so unintuitive and frustrating for majority of players. I recall reading some posts in LowSodiumCyberpunk reddit about some guns doing millions of damage but for me, during my three playthroughs, I haven't really paid attention, it works, target gets eliminated via means that are logical or they don't, via what numbers, I don't really care about that.

Not sure what is really new here?, you can find plenty of computer RPGs that use the underlying systems to offer multiple solutions to a situation. You can search this forum for people complaining that there are actually very few cases in this game, or people complaining that dialog should have used more of the systems behind... its not my main nuisance as I said initially (I mean AAA game, cost that much, need to hit that many sales to get profit --> you cannot expect a game whose game mechanics are overly complicated).
Well, that's good if it's that way because how I remember it, in Fallout 3 and IIRC New Vegas there were Raiders attacking you, regardless how power and reputation of player character. I recall there were dialogue options here and there but I don't ever recall those amounted to much in practical game play terms. In CP 2077 there is a bug in 1.3 that leads to random fights, but normally you don't need to engage at all and it's very satisfying when there's option to avoid even more fighting based on what character really is, which is, real bad ass mercenary. What you say, it's technically true I give you that, but also tone deaf.

Or to word in other ways : if you offer a character progression system it needs to be in such a way that by end level you can feel a difference based on the decisions that you take, if not or you just went through randomly distributing points past some level, why do you even implement that system?
Not everyone feels that way. Having quite a tank with Body 16 enabled me to complete (Don't Fear) the Reaper ending in a fashion I liked. Same can be said for my first run with Shotgun which character I experienced all three endings available for that character. I also enjoyed spreading lead with my assault riffle build on my second playthrough. It's not about that I'm somehow able to complete the game, but also that I can do it by sticking to playstyle I like. High body is sort of something I'm stuck with because of poor reactions time I have, but High body and perks/cyberware is actually a big plus there and it wouldn't make sense for me that high body character would be a glass cannon. How would it be different to other builds then?

Something I can think though is level scaling but that I guess has it's pros and cons regardless of system.

...and thats why I think that they tried to hit two target gamers at the same time and missed both of them.
Not sure what to think of this. CP 2077 isn't some small game with a cult following, it's one of the blockbusters in video game space, sold millions and according to achievement stats, on Xbox ~25% of players completed it and numbers are very high on PS land too, don't know about PC. Those numbers are outstandingly high and if system sucks both ways like you say, how in the world then all those people kept going to the end?
 
Since pretty much everybody has posted about every possible aspect of the game, I will just focus on one minor nuissance that I think CDPR should tackle in a subsequent game (i'm not even going to ask for DLC and/or expansion): you should focus who is the target audience that you want to sell your game and accept you are not going to be able to satisfy EVERYBODY. If you try that, you are going to have more people unhappy.

I'm not going to complain about cybergta,sandbox,infinite branches,turn based or skill checks but of two design decisions that try to made everybody happy and I think they backfired:

-Clothing and armor: your source material has a nice table that states that full combat gear protects more than a kevlar made bikini. The way its implenented in CP2077 (clothing + mods) you wanted to satisfy two different kind of gamers and ended with both sides dissatisfied: people is asking for transmog and theres people who don't see why guards are in full battle armor and not in casual dress (at least on fridays).

-Character characterization/leveling(no,the character is not a 3D rendering is all those numbers): I was not expecting a translation if Interlock or Fuzzion tabletop systems, since i understand that combining 1st person real time with aiming stats(reflexes+gun skill) can create player frustation (i'm hitting the target and my bullets don't register!), i would have liked some dialog gating by skills but i understand most people don't like that (so its my problem to play other games searching for that).
But the real problem with the system is not what is used (attributes,skills,perks) , the problem is that you get too many points(or too little for others) in attributes and perks(70 in attributes and 80s to 110s in perks?) which causes that when you reach lvl50 talking about builds is a little bit fuzzy... on top of that you provided a perk reset item and later by popular demand directly reset at character screen.You still have people asking for attribute and skill reset and people complaining that they cannot max out everything.

Basically the level cap and limit of attribute/perk points is so high that build planning is not sensical for some and too restrictive for others.

I don't want to go about "this is/is not RPG" or "RPG depth" and i don't want to self-cite my own half-joke post about what is a RPG. The point is, the same way that for story a consistent decision regarding the endings was done (no happy forever,win all...which was not a popular decision for all) there are parts of the mechanics that i think nobody dared to take that decision in order to try to hit a wider gamer base, which i think ended up not making anybody happy at all.
Yes, completely agree!
 
-Clothing and armor: your source material has a nice table that states that full combat gear protects more than a kevlar made bikini. The way its implenented in CP2077 (clothing + mods) you wanted to satisfy two different kind of gamers and ended with both sides dissatisfied: people is asking for transmog and theres people who don't see why guards are in full battle armor and not in casual dress (at least on fridays).
As this was quoted by @GogRelvas

This has been brought by very few people over the months I have been followed the forum, so I don't know what basis of this idea that this somehow isn't working for both sides comes from.

Regardless, CP 2077 way of portraying future options for bulletproof clothing is far more in touch what is happening in our current reality than what you suggest.

Example of bulletproof jean available now: Talos Ballistic Level IIIA Bulletproof Durable Denim Jacket (bulletproofzone.com)

More: Shop Bulletproof Clothing | Jackets | Hoodies - Bulletproof Zone and there's even more options available if you search the web.

It makes perfect sense that in future of 2077 there's been advances in manufacturing processes making it possible to create even better alloys and fabrics than used today, enabling even better options. This has been covered multiple times in past discussions.

Second thing I don't recall has been discussed is that for police and security lines, psychological impact of how gears looks like has been part of design process for, I don't know how long.

I personally like the way it is as it allows lot of freedom players but also makes sense not only in context of game and it's free from typical sci-fi bottleneck, where they tend to make things fake to make them "real", for people who aren't interested but fantasy.
 
Quality of story is relevant because people who play game because they find some system per se interesting are niche and tabletop RPG's are niche form of entertainment compared to video games. Video games enables lot's of automation and abstraction for things that I'm not that interested per se, but I can appreciate if they enable for me to do something in semi-transparent way. I posted examples of boxing/brawling and stealth builds in post earlier, Excel stuff enables us to enjoy the story and experience it different ways without doing Excel. It's great software, it enables many things, but it sucks for story.
Its not relevant because its a different piece of the whole .
Just take what you like:story,worldbuilding,non-linear gameplay,redundant level design. Eliminate your attributes and perks, keep skill progression by use and what was given by attributes and perks place it in items or weapon addons. You can find other videogames that did something like that (GTA San Andreas had skill by use, Quest For Glory had attribute and skill advancement by use past the initial screen), GTA is not RPG for sure and Quest For Glory is mostly considered a hybrid adventure/RPG... the story is orthogonal to the game mechanics.
What comes to too many perk points and that game is geared for players reaching end game at level 20 - 30. I don't see that is a problem at all and what comes to the rest of it, it's player choice if we continue via exploration or purpose to level up our character. I don't feel that there's any need to rewrite the system but offer harder challenges via harder difficulty levels which requite players to take better advantage of perks.
Difficulty level has nothing to do with character progression you can adjust damage or health or reaction times of enemies... plenty of mechanisms not related with the character progression system (basically, there are plenty of no RPG games out there who have different difficulty settings).
I don't say your feedback and suggestions are invalid but they appear to come down to that you think system needs to be changed because game becomes too easy.
No not only that, the main point is that if you offer a character creation and progressing system and at the end of your system (way before of the end) you are already putting points randomly or not expending them to avoid being a master in all then your system is not well designed (or designed to try to please two kind of people).

Not sure what to think of this. CP 2077 isn't some small game with a cult following, it's one of the blockbusters in video game space, sold millions and according to achievement stats, on Xbox ~25% of players completed it and numbers are very high on PS land too, don't know about PC. Those numbers are outstandingly high and if system sucks both ways like you say, how in the world then all those people kept going to the end?
You can find plenty of people complaining about : why I cannot maxout everything?,why I cannot respec attributes and skills? they already simplified perk respec by popular demand... a move that kind of support my theory (if you wanna call it that way) that a significant part of the player base thinks that attributes/perk points granted are too few.
As this was quoted by @GogRelvas

This has been brought by very few people over the months I have been followed the forum, so I don't know what basis of this idea that this somehow isn't working for both sides comes from.

Regardless, CP 2077 way of portraying future options for bulletproof clothing is far more in touch what is happening in our current reality than what you suggest.

Example of bulletproof jean available now: Talos Ballistic Level IIIA Bulletproof Durable Denim Jacket (bulletproofzone.com)

More: Shop Bulletproof Clothing | Jackets | Hoodies - Bulletproof Zone and there's even more options available if you search the web.

It makes perfect sense that in future of 2077 there's been advances in manufacturing processes making it possible to create even better alloys and fabrics than used today, enabling even better options. This has been covered multiple times in past discussions.

Second thing I don't recall has been discussed is that for police and security lines, psychological impact of how gears looks like has been part of design process for, I don't know how long.

I personally like the way it is as it allows lot of freedom players but also makes sense not only in context of game and it's free from typical sci-fi bottleneck, where they tend to make things fake to make them "real", for people who aren't interested but fantasy.
Literally, just put "cyberpunk 2077 no transmog" on google... you will find not only forums,reddits etc... but even mainstream game electronics outlets dealing with the topic.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ng-the-stats&usg=AOvVaw13yHuzDGdDdgjLMovHA9R2
"Deplorably, Cyberpunk 2077 has no official, full transmog feature. If you want to benefit from a certain item's stats, you have to wear it"
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ransmog-wow/&usg=AOvVaw2IUSsLs0yeVIIuAcpvwfyo
"The feature that fans are looking desperately for in Cyberpunk 2077 is a transmog system with the ability to make whatever weapon the player ..."
Is one of the features that appear in this forum very often, that people use mods (in the sense of modding community not in-game clothing mods), that they use the extra outfit for hidding clothing and that everytime a patch is released it reappers as a demand.
 
Just an idea, thinking about it :)
Is the fact that in very difficult you earn less perk points, but most interesting, you can only spend your perk points in the category where you earned them ?
Like if QH skill unlock a new perk point, you could only spend it in QH skill (like for me, I have earn lot of perks point from Blade skill but I never invest any in Blade).
 
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Its not relevant because its a different piece of the whole .
Just take what you like:story,worldbuilding,non-linear gameplay,redundant level design. Eliminate your attributes and perks, keep skill progression by use and what was given by attributes and perks place it in items or weapon addons. You can find other videogames that did something like that (GTA San Andreas had skill by use, Quest For Glory had attribute and skill advancement by use past the initial screen), GTA is not RPG for sure and Quest For Glory is mostly considered a hybrid adventure/RPG... the story is orthogonal to the game mechanics.
This is rather odd way to look at it. I pointed this out earlier. Beat the Brat is story line in CP 2077 and if and how player can complete that story line is dependent from how they build their character. System either enables that or it doesn't. If system doesn't enable that, system has no value for player.

Difficulty level has nothing to do with character progression you can adjust damage or health or reaction times of enemies... plenty of mechanisms not related with the character progression system (basically, there are plenty of no RPG games out there who have different difficulty settings).
If character progression system is not related to challenge presented by game, why there should be any progression system at all?
No not only that, the main point is that if you offer a character creation and progressing system and at the end of your system (way before of the end) you are already putting points randomly or not expending them to avoid being a master in all then your system is not well designed (or designed to try to please two kind of people).
This is to do with psychology, I suppose you are referring to that by two kinds of people. I'm not sure I follow? The main goal is completing the game, lot's of people has done that. What's after that? If goal is do it via what player has, main story missions only or via completing the character or what?
You can find plenty of people complaining about : why I cannot maxout everything?,why I cannot respec attributes and skills? they already simplified perk respec by popular demand... a move that kind of support my theory (if you wanna call it that way) that a significant part of the player base thinks that attributes/perk points granted are too few.
This is like every game ever made in about any genre. People paying racing games want to faster ways to access cars they want, people playing casual shooters are looking for shortcuts to rewards that might be just cosmetics.

What comes to legit issues in mechanics, I stick with how I see it and what I wrote earlier in this topic. Skill Reward progression not working as intended in some user scenarios and attribute reset was made easier for players to easier to work around issues that it create for high body builds.

Literally, just put "cyberpunk 2077 no transmog" on google... you will find not only forums,reddits etc... but even mainstream game electronics outlets dealing with the topic.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjF1_GwqfnyAhV58eAKHYqUBRkQFnoECBQQAQ&url=https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/cyberpunk-2077-transmog-option-change-your-clothing-appearance-while-keeping-the-stats&usg=AOvVaw13yHuzDGdDdgjLMovHA9R2
"Deplorably, Cyberpunk 2077 has no official, full transmog feature. If you want to benefit from a certain item's stats, you have to wear it"
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjF1_GwqfnyAhV58eAKHYqUBRkQFnoECBYQAQ&url=https://gamerant.com/cyberpunk-2077-what-to-do-loot-gear-transmog-wow/&usg=AOvVaw2IUSsLs0yeVIIuAcpvwfyo
"The feature that fans are looking desperately for in Cyberpunk 2077 is a transmog system with the ability to make whatever weapon the player ..."
Is one of the features that appear in this forum very often, that people use mods (in the sense of modding community not in-game clothing mods), that they use the extra outfit for hidding clothing and that everytime a patch is released it reappers as a demand.
I did, I also went to see how popular that is. The most popular mod for this in gamer nexus appears to be Transmog Workaround, which has 1085 unique downloads. That's for a game that has sold way above 13 million. With those numbers, this looks like gaming press just being gaming press and nothing else. Have nothing against the mod though.

I really like the game and I don't want to gatekeep it getting better features and that's not my intention, but I just don't know what to think of all this. There's no game made ever that there aren't people complaining about some aspect of it. I don't personally liked crafting and that, it gets tedious to me. In general though, what comes to psychology of it, why not use those words instead of coming up like it's some sort of issue in game system? Proper terminology might inform readers better and it's also that I don't know, not everyone plays any game I guess the way I like playing it. But I don't see how that's an issue as long as I don't need to adapt playing style I don't like.

There was a point about that this system may not work well past level 50, but then it's quite a small percentage, though even 1 percent might be close to 180,000+ with this game, all I know that it sold like hot cakes once it came available in PS store again. Still it's not said that expansion is about continuing V's story and then there are things I really don't want to start speculating about, but I don't think they don't have a plan at CDPR.
 
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