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My Issue with the Empres Ending. [Spoilers]

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Z

Zeroscape

Forum veteran
#41
Jun 14, 2015
dzbrown said:
Many good things
Click to expand...
One other impression I got replaying Act 3 was that there was an air of inevitability about Ciri becoming Empress. I paid close attention to what characters say about her becoming Empress after reloading earlier and not taking Ciri to see the Emperor.

- There's a dialogue on the boat that plays out between Yen and Ciri where Yen suggests that she should see Emhyr and that it wasn't too late yet.
- Again Yen's the one to tell Ciri that the Emperor plans to give her Skellige as you all sail there for Final Preparations.
- Philippa also says it is inevitable that Ciri becomes Empress. Sure, she says a lot of things, but this was after all attempts to resist Emhyr were made.

There's a big effort made to push that idea without the game allowing you and/or Ciri to reasonably resist those sentiments. It's like if you choose to not take Ciri to the Emperor, you're both just in denial. So the game itself pushes a certain agenda I feel.

dzbrown said:
Of course a bit more exposition on her own thoughts, as well as that of others in what they wanted her to do (Emhyr) would have provided a lot more insight into all of this, but instead we are left to somewhat speculate..maybe that's for the best, maybe not.
Click to expand...
This should have happened when you talk to Ciri about whether you want to go see the Emperor or not. Really, it's a critical moment and one where both characters should've put all their cards on the table. I just recently replayed that scene where I suggested she shouldn't go and see him and the response was a very quick "yeah I don't want to be part of anyone else's plan, let's not go.". That felt very much like denial of the situation yet again.

dzbrown said:
Realistically speaking, even in the epilogue "Ciri's exploits are known". How could this fact not reach the Emhyr? It was his acceptance to let her walk her own path.
Click to expand...
So based on my impressions I would say if Nilfgaard won the war (which seems canonical), Emhyr will reach out to her eventually. "All roads lead to Rome..."
 
Last edited: Jun 14, 2015
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T

Thatfella

Forum regular
#42
Jun 14, 2015
Zeroscape said:
- Again Yen's the one to tell Ciri that the Emperor plans to give her Skellige as you all sail there for Final Preparations.
Click to expand...
Right but Ciri also said why is attacking my friends, so why would Ciri would want to rule Skellige?
 
D

dzbrown

Rookie
#43
Jun 14, 2015
Zeroscape said:
One other impression I got replaying Act 3 was that there was an air of inevitability about Ciri becoming Empress. I paid close attention to what characters say about her becoming Empress after reloading earlier and not taking Ciri to see the Emperor.

- There's a dialogue on the boat that plays out between Yen and Ciri where Yen suggests that she should see Emhyr and that it wasn't too late yet.
- Again Yen's the one to tell Ciri that the Emperor plans to give her Skellige as you all sail there for Final Preparations.
- Philippa also says it is inevitable that Ciri becomes Empress. Sure, she says a lot of things, but this was after all attempts to resist Emhyr were made.

There's a big effort made to push that idea without the game allow you and/or Ciri to reasonably resist those sentiments. It's like if you choose to no take Ciri to the Emperor, you're both just in denial. So the game itself pushes a certain agenda I feel.
Click to expand...
I totally agree, and I remember we were discussing this point some time ago. You get all of these hints that the ending seems predestined and yet on the other hand you see Ciri almost making it seem like her own desires are pulling her in a different direction. I guess we could interpret this in terms of an overarching motif of 'people that want/expect Ciri to do something they, projecting, can't imagine she would do otherwise' versus 'what Ciri actually wants to do if the decision is left up to her'. This conflict could have been further elucidated simply by having instances where people mention what Ciri would do and then have her interject a bit more (assuming she's there) or there could have been a scenario where you talk to her and she mentions how all of these people have their own designs for her but she really wants to do X, which would fit better with the overall feeling of the two "good" endings. On the one hand, she accepts the outcome as a matter of duty and on the other she accepts it as a matter of choice and/or personal freedom. The game itself could have also taken certain choices made during dialogue options or decisions made that would influence the overall feeling of where Ciri's fate lies...of course "time and resources" comes into play here, it might simply have been difficult to do this from a game design standpoint to account for all those variables and to have them actually change dialogue, voice acting, and other potential outcomes in the game.

Zeroscape said:
This should have happened when you talk to Ciri about whether you want to go see the Emperor or not. Really, it's a critical moment and one where both characters should've put all their cards on the table. I just recently replayed that scene where I suggested she shouldn't go and see him and the response was a very quick "yeah I don't want to be part of anyone else's plan, let's not go.". That felt very much like denial of the situation yet again.
Click to expand...
Yep. I feel there were several instances in the game with a lot of the characters that warranted more. This is definitely one of the more important ones. Other instances could have been, as you have mentioned recently, more of a family dynamic, and, in general, more 'pivotal' conversations with other characters that would have better defined them, their wishes or feelings, or provided depth to what is otherwise a more shallow, topical examination of their character. Examples of this would be Avallac'h's lab where more notes/books/journals could have been planted to provide more depth on his motives, hinted at the White Frost, provided more exposition on Eredin. Also, on the 'Through Time and Space', there could have been more dialogue between him and Geralt given that Geralt was already skeptical of him. The conversation with Ge'els was a missed opportunity to go into more depth on Eredin or the Aen Elle as a whole, "humanizing" them a bit more, for lack of a better term. There are other instances that just needed a 'little more' there that would have really filled in some gaps...

Zeroscape said:
So based on my impressions I would say if Nilfgaard won the war (which seems canonical), Emhyr will reach out to her eventually. "All roads lead to Rome..."
Click to expand...
I too got this impression. Assuming Nilgaard wins the war and Emhyr is still alive, he could just as easily allow Ciri to go do her thing before calling upon her again. His "I don't want to see you ever again" to Geralt could just as easily have been seen as the Emhyr not wanting Geralt/Yen to interfere should he wish to reach out to her again in the future to achieve his ambitions. Your example of comparing him to Tywin is the best comparison I've seen to date in terms of characterization.
 
Last edited: Jun 14, 2015
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Willowhugger

Willowhugger

Forum veteran
#44
Jun 15, 2015
Yeah, I don't think the Empress Ciri ending makes a lick of sense.

It requires Ciri to ignore the fact that the Nilfgaard murdered her homeland and forced all of the survivors to flee to Skellige for a time.

It's like Leia becoming Galactic Empress due to her relationship to Darth Vader.

Seriously, you can't have Ciri become Empress without addressing Cintra.

"What happened to her people, how are they being treated, what are they up to? What does Dandelion think of Ciri becoming head of the people who destroyed her homeland?"

This game was definitely pushing a Nilfgaard agenda and that makes no damned sense.
 
Last edited: Jun 15, 2015
T

TangibleChop

Rookie
#45
Jun 15, 2015
Willowhugger said:
Yeah, I don't think the Empress Ciri ending makes a lick of sense.

It requires Ciri to ignore the fact that the Nilfgaard murdered her homeland and forced all of the survivors to flee to Skellige for a time.

It's like Leia becoming Galactic Empress due to her relationship to Darth Vader.

Seriously, you can't have Ciri become Empress without addressing Cintra.

"What happened to her people, how are they being treated, what are they up to? What does Dandelion think of Ciri becoming head of the people who destroyed her homeland?"

This game was definitely pushing a Nilfgaard agenda and that makes no damned sense.
Click to expand...
I think it's also because they made Nilfguuard not seem so bad in the game. Like when you tell Ciri to go to see the Emperor, they could have at least added an option where she expresses dislike for him based on the empire's past actions.
 
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R

robertbrockman2

Rookie
#46
Jun 24, 2015
dzbrown said:
I felt like the Emhyr knew that Geralt was lying, which was interesting because Ciri then asks him if he believed it and Geralt expresses some doubt.
Click to expand...
Yep. Emhyr is many things but stupid is not one of them. There are two plausible scenarios, both of which occur in the game depending on the ending:

1. Ciri stops the White Frost and returns home.
2. Ciri dies trying to stop the White Frost and is never seen again.

What is NOT plausible is Geralt's story:

3. Ciri stops the White Frost, and is THEN is killed (??), and Geralt knows she is dead without recovering the body.

Geralt claims the White Frost has been stopped. How can he know this? He cannot teleport at will, cannot see the future. Did a mage help him check?

Emhyr is suspicious. He asks the obvious question about the recovery of the body, Geralt claims that it will likely never be found.

Emhyr's response: "I see."

Emhyr knows Geralt pretty well, knows he would scour the multiverse looking for Ciri at this point. So he knows that Geralt is lying, that Ciri is alive and does not want to visit him. (She could teleport in at any time.)
 
S

Songborn

Rookie
#47
Jun 24, 2015
I don't think that Emhyr managed to manipulate Ciri completely in the course of one short conversation (you really don't talk that long with Voorhis) and one letter. After the conversation Ciri is very angry and says "if he thinks he can buy me he is sorely mistaken" so I assume Emhyr was offering her the throne should she decide to take it. Ciri obviously wants nothing to do with this. However ONE letter later in the game seems to have changed her mind. Knowing Ciri it was probably an honest appeal that made her re-consider. I would be really interested in reading that letter.

We just don't know enough about the Nilfgaardians for my likings. I want to know more about the inner workings of the empire!
 
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