My take on the problem with Nilfgaard

[Six-Sided-Prism]

By interesting I mean at least he has a unique effect - a gamechanger vs. some decks, yes, but definitely not something you cannot react to. A fair card, polarizing, but fair.

The problem with Cahir is that Gwent is not a complicated game. Practically every card effect comes down to either Boosting or Damaging one or more units, and Cahir effectively stops an opponent from doing one of those things. Yes, Cahir can be removed, and to be honest, it's not even that challenging most of the time; however, Cahir's effect is still not good for the health of the game. No single card, no matter its provision cost, should single-handedly decide the outcome of a round, and that's generally what Cahir does against a number of decks if they are unable to remove him. If the developers ultimately disagree with this statement, then at the very least, Defenders will have to go so that every game-breaking card has the option of being immediately removed.

 

[quintivarium]

Without addressing OPs points one by one (as I believe this is about the 10th similar topic about NG being weak, etc. in the current meta), I'd pinpoint one major issue only with the faction, and mostly their bronzes - and that is their lack of internal synergy. NG has a lot of interesting archetypes, however these are typically not functioning well when mixed withon a deck. You have soldiers (clearly benefiting from other soldiers mostly), assimilate cards, deck manipulation cards, status cards, poison package, etc - yet, if you check their mechanics, usually they either require non-trivial setup, or just plain suffer when moved outside from their own archetype.

Looking at a faction that received a lot of hate nowadays, SK, or even NR for example, and examining their bronze package, we can spot two obvious things:

- they have (especially SK) solid options without any serious conditions to produce those sweet 7 for 4 and 8 for 5 provision cards;
- their bronze package has excellent internal synergy, allowing for great interchangeability, flexible ordering, and sometimes even a chance to compete with other faction's golds.

I really believe the key to address several factions "bronze unit" problem is to look into these small synergies between cards. The negative examples are NG, SC (porbably even in a worse state than NG tbh) and in multiple cases SY.
While the formula for success in case of SK is obviously the ease-of-use dmg/self dmg mechanic, the lack of such "finesse" is impacting some of the factions heavily.

As a quick conclusion, buffing a card by 1 or playing with provisions etc. while can be beneficial, it won't solve the core problem, the one being that cards need to benefit from / synergize with each other.

I think you are absolutely correct here.

Post automatically merged: Nov 27, 2020

The problem with Cahir is that Gwent is not a complicated game. Practically every card effect comes down to either Boosting or Damaging one or more units, and Cahir effectively stops an opponent from doing one of those things. Yes, Cahir can be removed, and to be honest, it's not even that challenging most of the time; however, Cahir's effect is still not good for the health of the game. No single card, no matter its provision cost, should single-handedly decide the outcome of a round, and that's generally what Cahir does against a number of decks if they are unable to remove him. If the developers ultimately disagree with this statement, then at the very least, Defenders will have to go so that every game-breaking card has the option of being immediately removed.

I couldn’t have said it better. In this regard, Cahir is by far the worst card in the game.

 

[Messyr]

The problem with Cahir is that Gwent is not a complicated game. Practically every card effect comes down to either Boosting or Damaging one or more units, and Cahir effectively stops an opponent from doing one of those things. Yes, Cahir can be removed, and to be honest, it's not even that challenging most of the time; however, Cahir's effect is still not good for the health of the game. No single card, no matter its provision cost, should single-handedly decide the outcome of a round, and that's generally what Cahir does against a number of decks if they are unable to remove him. If the developers ultimately disagree with this statement, then at the very least, Defenders will have to go so that every game-breaking card has the option of being immediately removed.

Or, as an alternative, one should always prepare his/her greedy deck to be able to handle a defender AND a protected card/engine. Sure, this is not comfortable, but definitely doable.
What would be a better "fix" for Cahir in my book is to add an Adrenaline tag to his effect. Say, it would only trigger from a certain point in the game, somewhat limiting his use to some extent. I'd prefer him to start out with a moderate +1/+2 boost every time an opponent boost happens, and switch to his current version from Adrenaline 4.

 

[Sensimilius]

Or, as an alternative, one should always prepare his/her greedy deck to be able to handle a defender AND a protected card/engine. Sure, this is not comfortable, but definitely doable.

And a 3rd removal for when NG uses Letho to transform into Cahir again. :|

 

[fil_faniki]

And a 3rd removal for when NG uses Letho to transform into Cahir again. :|

NG plays Defender
You heatwave Defender
NG plays Cahir
You kill Cahir

Now how can Letho copy Cahir?

 

[Sensimilius]

NG plays Defender
You heatwave Defender
NG plays Cahir
You kill Cahir

Now how can Letho copy Cahir?

But mayyybe I don't kill him, I lock him or move him to the back row. Maybe I don't kill him instantly, when he's dropped.

 

[Morph3uXD]

Letho and Cahir's combo is a meme, it almost never works.

To say that Cahir is op just because some decks can't handle it would be tantamount to saying that swarm decks are ops, because control decks can't handle it.

 

[quintivarium]

The issue is not that Cahir is OP, the issue is that he is extremely binary. With most opposing decks he is either countered or single handedly wins the game. No card should be that extreme, and no other existing card is that extreme.

Moreover, by forcing 2 removals into every deck, variety is decreased not only because of the freedom to choose two cards is lost, but because the destroyed units forced by this play generally have no further interaction in the game.

 

[Draconifors]

What would be a better "fix" for Cahir in my book is to add an Adrenaline tag to his effect. Say, it would only trigger from a certain point in the game, somewhat limiting his use to some extent.

This could actually be a great use of the new keyword.

 

[quintivarium]

This could actually be a great use of the new keyword.

Yes, one of the following:
Adrenaline 10: lose all abilities
Or
Adrenaline 0 take 1000 damage

Sorry, I can think of no reasonable form in which Cahir is an acceptable card.

 

[Draconifors]

Sorry, I can think of no reasonable form in which Cahir is an acceptable card.

Fair enough.

I agree it's a stupid card, and I never use it myself no matter how many times draft tries to get me to.

 

[ReaperTek]

Not much a fan of Cahir myself, at least not when the Cahir player only relies on the opponent playing a boost heavy Deck, but I have less of a problem with him if the player actually uses a boost you're opponents Card's strategy with Yennefer and the other Card's that boost the opponent's Units mostly followed by Standard Bearer and Yrden.

So maybe they could rework Cahir that he only boosts himself during the Cahir player's turn and maybe rework some of the more useless NG bronzes (or even some of the neutral ones) to support the boost enemie units strategy.

 

[Messyr]

Not much a fan of Cahir myself, at least not when the Cahir player only relies on the opponent playing a boost heavy Deck, but I got less of a problem with him if the player actually uses a boost you're opponents Card's strategy with Yennefer and the other Card's that boost the opponent's Units mostly followed by Standard Bearer and Yrden.

So maybe they could rework Cahir that he only boosts himself during the Cahir player's turn and maybe rework some of the more useless NG bronzes (or even some of the neutral ones) to support the boost enemie units strategy.

That would however totally kill the base concept of the card (buff punishment) and make it fall into the level of the worst meme cards. Toning and adjusting the level of efficiency this card has I'd be OK with, butchering it's concept because it is ultra punishing vs. certain types of decks - not so much.

 

[Slizzl]

Not much a fan of Cahir myself, at least not when the Cahir player only relies on the opponent playing a boost heavy Deck, but I got less of a problem with him if the player actually uses a boost you're opponents Card's strategy with Yennefer and the other Card's that boost the opponent's Units mostly followed by Standard Bearer and Yrden.

So maybe they could rework Cahir that he only boosts himself during the Cahir player's turn and maybe rework some of the more useless NG bronzes (or even some of the neutral ones) to support the boost enemie units strategy.

This I can agree with. I'm not fond of the delete mentality of both the devs and the fanbase, reworks like this are the way to go. There is nothing worse than having an ability you like completely erased from the game. This should only be done if an ability is so broken it cannot be balanced no matter what. It creates an atmosphere of unease where you're constantly worried whether your favorite aspect of the game will randomly get deleted. The beta has instilled this in me already and we've now seen it happen in current Gwent.

 

[ReaperTek]

That would however totally kill the base concept of the card (buff punishment) and make it fall into the level of the worst meme cards. Toning and adjusting the level of efficiency this card has I'd be OK with, butchering it's concept because it is ultra punishing vs. certain types of decks - not so much.

Not sure he would be totally Meme because of that in this case they could even buff him otherwise (reduced provision cost, removing row lock, Armor or Shield) and I also added that he would need additional support with reworks of currently "useless/bad" Card's (for Golds for example something like OB False Ciri (Spying. If Spying, boost self by 1 on turn start and when this player passes, move to the opposite row. Deathwish: Destroy the Lowest unit on the row.) or OB Letho (Spying. Apply Lock status to 2 units on this row, then Drain all their power.) obviously reworked to support Cahir during you're round comes to mind) and it kind of also fits with Nilfgaards messing with the opponent strategy ("supporting" the opponent and stab him in the back afterwards with lining up a Gigni, Yrden, Ivar Evil Eye or seize a highly boosted unit with Vattier).

I think him and Vysogota of Corvo became quit problematic with the introduction of Defenders (i actually would prefer they get rid of those instead) that you either need to have an answer for both or your screwed and can practically instant forfeit which is really bad and I never had that feeling even in the worst matchups during Open Beta.

 

[ya1]

Golds are crazy good, but expensive.

Pound for pound, NG got the worst golds of all factions. Except Ball and Yen, there is nothing that gets close to the powerhouses other factions offer (and Yen's like everybody devoless has it anyway in the form of Heatwave).

we will likely buff 6 NG bronzes and 4 golds. I think this will be a big step in a better direction.

Many NG cards were buffed last patch, and it only resulted in further plummeting of NG play/winrates. Buffing cards whose concepts are iffy to begin with (Vicovaro Novice, Slave Infantry, etc.) or cards which are a part of bad packages (Letho, Milton-Palmerin) is pointless. You might consider reverting the bad nerfs to NG mainstays (and Formation) inspired by Reddit rants. NG rates had been mediocre even before those nerfs. (Conversely, take all 10-12p cards from other factions' meta decks and nerf them )

And as far as the expansion reveals go, NG that was the control faction is now becoming a clown-troll faction. NG cards are like pray to rng to get close to the value other factions take for granted.

 

[Slizzl]

One decent middleground with Cahir I think would be to do what OneWhoCravesSouls suggested and have him only boost during the Cahir player's turn at first but also unlock the normal effect later on with Adrenaline 3 or maybe 2. This way it still functions as a tech card against stuff like Gord or Ozzrel, but doesn't singlehandedly win games.

 

[fil_faniki]

One decent middleground with Cahir I think would be to do what OneWhoCravesSouls suggested and have him only boost during the Cahir player's turn at first but also unlock the normal effect later on with Adrenaline 3 or maybe 2. This way it still functions as a tech card against stuff like Gord or Ozzrel, but doesn't singlehandedly win games.

That's a reasonable change but I say don't nerf anything from NG until the faction as a whole is good again. Remember last patch, when Ball got nerfed? Remember the "buffs" NG got to compensate that?
I really like that Cahir change with the Adrenaline, but maybe hold off until the faction's good.

 

[lor1keet]

Right now, NG is just laughably bad.

Round 1, NG golds lose to SK bronzes...just sad...pathetic, really.

NG wishes that they had bronzes as good as SK.

 

[fil_faniki]

I hope the buffs to the bronzes are significant because none of the new bronzes seem to do anything to push R1 in terms of points. If the changes to old bronzes are on the level of the Vicovaro Novice change we had last patch then NG is doomed