NEED HELP: Traditional Japanese attire and weapons

[blank_redge]

Regardless, my initial question really has nothing to do with what an individual referee allows in his game. My question refers to the rules as written

Heh. Rules as written also say someone with an Average physique (BODY Stat of 6) can carry 132 lbs. of stuff like it ain't no thang, and can deadlift 529 lbs. (! ! !)

I don't know if you've ever tried to pick up 500 lbs, but that is GODD@MN heavy. No one I know of that can do that has what I'd think of as an "average" physique.

But, I'll humor ya. ;-)

My question is How do you interpret the rules in the book as it may apply to a traditional Daisho as opposed to the Mono-Two set? The About Monoblades rule states that you can turn any bladed or spiked weapon listed into a mono-bladed version (with all of the benefits and penalties that entails) and you still get the original weapon's MA Strike and damage bonuses. My question is, given that, is the reverse true as well?

I don't see why not. As far as I understand it, turning something into a mono-edged weapon just entails edging the blade with monofilament, to keep it permanently sharp. It wouldn't (or at least, it shouldn't) drastically alter the balance or handling characteristics of the weapon, and you're using the same technique and form for both, so I don't see a reason why the bonus shouldn't apply.

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

Heh. Rules as written also say someone with an Average physique (BODY Stat of 6) can carry 132 lbs. of stuff like it ain't no thang, and can deadlift 529 lbs. (! ! !)

I don't know if you've ever tried to pick up 500 lbs, but that is GODD@MN heavy. No one I know of that can do that has what I'd think of as an "average" physique.

But, I'll humor ya. ;-)

Another reason why I like the FUZIOn rules. They broke Body into three different Attributes—Body, Constitution, and Strength. Not only that but a 5 or 6 is not longer classified as "average". "Average" (as in your typical citizen), is a 2-4.

I don't see why not. As far as I understand it, turning something into a mono-edged weapon just entails edging the blade with monofilament, to keep it permanently sharp. It wouldn't (or at least, it shouldn't) drastically alter the balance or handling characteristics of the weapon, and you're using the same technique and form for both, so I don't see a reason why the bonus shouldn't apply.

Technically, a Monoblade is completely made from "monomolecular crystal", not just the edge. This is why they break so easily, they're essentially glass. The core rules even refer to it as "mono-glas". The Mono-Two set is reenforced for added durability, so it won't automatically shatter on a fumble,like a normal monoblade, but it's still more fragile than steel, much less the traditional folded steel of a true Nihonto. That's why you won't catch any of my characters using mono-blades. They're just too fragile. I'll stick with real steel. However, I agree, it shouldn't alter the balance or handling characteristics.

 

[blank_redge]

Technically, a Monoblade is completely made from "monomolecular crystal", not just the edge. This is why they break so easily, they're essentially glass. The core rules even refer to it as "mono-glas". The Mono-Two set is reenforced for added durability, so it won't automatically shatter on a fumble,like a normal monoblade, but it's still more fragile than steel, much less the traditional folded steel of a true Nihonto.

Hm.

Are *all* of the mono-edged fixed blades in canon made from crystal? I know most of the mono-edged weapons are, but this statement:

The About Monoblades rule states that you can turn any bladed or spiked weapon listed into a mono-bladed version (with all of the benefits and penalties that entails) and you still get the original weapon's MA Strike and damage bonuses.

led me to believe that that was another thing that Shadowrun borrowed from the pages of CP (ie, mono-edged weapons that weren't fashioned from a slab of orbital crystal / high carbon glass composite.

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

Hm.

Are *all* of the mono-edged fixed blades in canon made from crystal? I know most of the mono-edged weapons are, but this statement:


led me to believe that that was another thing that Shadowrun borrowed from the pages of CP (ie, mono-edged weapons that weren't fashioned from a slab of orbital crystal / high carbon glass composite.

Yes, they're all made from Monocrystal. The Mono-Two specifically has thicker blades and is reenforced with Orbital Crystal for added strength, thus only breaking on a 2 or less on a D10 when parrying, and won't automatically shatter on a fumble or critical failure (Same 2 or less on a D10 for breakage). All other mono-bladed weapons are significantly more fragile. The specific passage from the PAC regarding turning normal bladed weapons into Monoblads reads:

About Monoblades
You can change the blades/points of spiked(like Sai) or edged Martial Arts weapons to "monomolecular crystal" (a cheap version of the material used in Mono-Two blades). This adds 1D6 to the damage (ex: 2D6=2 becomes 3D6+2), and soft armors are 1/3 SP; hard armor 2/3 SP
There are two disadvantages: when you attempt a parry with a monoblade, roll a D10. On a 4 or less, the blade breaks. The blade always breaks on a Fumble or Critical failure. The second disadvantage is that it's incredibly expensive—multiply the weapon cost x5.

—(Pacific Rim Sourcebook page 150)

Simply put, the "About Monoblades" rule allows you convert a standard bladed or pointed weapon to monomolecular crystal to get the added damage and enhanced SP effects at the cost of being more fragile and significant expense.

 

[blank_redge]

Right then. As it reads to me, you're replacing the blade outright, just reusing the tsuba / seppa / mekugi / etc. of the weapon in question.

To benefit from the same combat bonuses as a "plain vanilla" blade mechanically, it stands to reason that the manufacturing tolerances would have to be pretty tight, to get the same weight and balance. (And really, dealing with the level of tech we are in-game, there's no reason *not* to have tight manufacturing tolerances, especially considering the price-point.)

It reads to me that the added benefit of the D6 of damage comes from the "perma-sharp" characteristic of the crystal blades.

So, yeah; makes perfect sense to me to just step the damage down that same D6, for the steel version.

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

Right then. As it reads to me, you're replacing the blade outright, just reusing the tsuba / seppa / mekugi / etc. of the weapon in question.

To benefit from the same combat bonuses as a "plain vanilla" blade mechanically, it stands to reason that the manufacturing tolerances would have to be pretty tight, to get the same weight and balance. (And really, dealing with the level of tech we are in-game, there's no reason *not* to have tight manufacturing tolerances, especially considering the price-point.)

It reads to me that the added benefit of the D6 of damage comes from the "perma-sharp" characteristic of the crystal blades.

So, yeah; makes perfect sense to me to just step the damage down that same D6, for the steel version.

And the added fragility of monoblades, don't forget that.

But, yeah, that's my thinking as well, but to have some consensus, or official stance on it would be nice too.

Of course true traditionally made Koto Nihonto Daiso are extremely expensive, even compared to mono-weapons (or, at least they should be), but the Arasaka blades from Shockwave (the closest we have to traditional Daiso) have no price listed, as those are "awarded" to their soldiers and officers, are not for sale. Of course with my character, his are 500+ year old family heirlooms so...

But, basically, based upon the About Monoblades rule, would you agree that the Daisho from Shockwave would qualify for the same MA bonuses as the Mono-Two set?

 

[blank_redge]

But, basically, based upon the About Monoblades rule, would you agree that the Daisho from Shockwave would qualify for the same MA bonuses as the Mono-Two set?

Personally, I'd go so far as to say that the bonuses would apply to *any* tool that has the right general weight and balance of the toolset in question (ie, bokken, jo of equivalent length, etc.)

Of course true traditionally made Koto Nihonto Daiso are extremely expensive, even compared to mono-weapons (or, at least they should be), but the Arasaka blades from Shockwave (the closest we have to traditional Daiso) have no price listed, as those are "awarded" to their soldiers and officers, are not for sale. Of course with my character, his are 500+ year old family heirlooms so...

Yeeeeaaaah... that part is gonna be tricky.

I've personally priced having a museum quality replica made (as in, made the old fashioned way.) I've seen quotes north of five grand, USD.

Then, you have modern manufactured swords like the Paul Chen practical line, which aren't NEARLY as pretty, but are live steel, and perfectly functional for tameshigiri. I've seen 'em as cheap as 350 USD.

Presumably, the Arasaka blades gifted to their personnel are of FAR better quality than the mass-produced gunto handed out during WWII, which are barely worth the steel they were stamped out of.

Sooo... yeah. It's a pretty wide range.

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

Personally, I'd go so far as to say that the bonuses would apply to *any* tool that has the right general weight and balance of the toolset in question (ie, bokken, jo of equivalent length, etc.)

I have no idea what a "Jo" is, but given that bokken and shinai are used specifically in Japanese sword training for safety reasons, I'd agree on those.

Yeeeeaaaah... that part is gonna be tricky.

I've personally priced having a museum quality replica made (as in, made the old fashioned way.) I've seen quotes north of five grand, USD.

Then, you have modern manufactured swords like the Paul Chen practical line, which aren't NEARLY as pretty, but are live steel, and perfectly functional for tameshigiri. I've seen 'em as cheap as 350 USD.

Presumably, the Arasaka blades gifted to their personnel are of FAR better quality than the mass-produced gunto handed out during WWII, which are barely worth the steel they were stamped out of.

Sooo... yeah. It's a pretty wide range.

Don't I know it. Now, if only we could get Wisdom000 into this discussion, I could pick his brains on the subject, given that he runs Datafortress 2020, where I got that Illustrated Weapons Guide from.

 

[blank_redge]

Yeah; where *is* @wisdom000? Figured he would've posted to this thread a while ago.

Probably too busy griefing noobs in GTA5. =p

 

[guidokpd]

As much as I love Cyberpunk 2020 it has many problems. The fact that someone with an average body can carry 132 lbs with no encumbrance is one. The inconsistencies of later material is another.

The best source for all the rules I have seen is Reference book 5.
http://www.cyberpedia.eu.org/Download/Cyberpunk 2020 - Reference Book 5.pdf

In one of the books I remember seeing that if there is anything you want to bring into the game just use the current price in euro.

The way I remember:
Steel Katanas are 3d6
Steel Wakasashis are 2d2

Monokatanas/Wakasashis are 4d6/3d6 and cut through armor more easily. Soft armor is at 1/3 hard armor is at 2/3.

You can add a monomolecular edge to a weapon. It increases the damage by 1d6 and gives it the same armor penetration.

You can have any weapon made out of orbital crystal. This makes the weapon almost unbreakable and adds a d6 to the damage. We have ruled that you can not have mono orbital crystal weapons.

Then you have power swords. It is a monosword with a powered hilt. It is even more fragile than the monokatana. The power sword cuts through armor even better. Hard armor is at half, soft armor is at a quarter. Power swords also take a round to warm up after they are drawn. Until they are warmed it they work like a regular monosword.

We use the rules from Pac Rim for martial arts. The weapons listed for each martial art get the bonus damage from skill level. We have however reduced the damage bonus by half. Characters can only use the weapons listed with the martial art. If they use any other weapon it is will the Melee skill. The customizable martial arts like U-Ar-Do or Streetfighting get to pick 2 weapons for each point in Strike. Also the max they can put in any move is 4.

We have moved to a Fuzion like game. Split some stats and some skills. Added advantages and disadvantages. Expanded the lifepath so we could make older and more experienced characters. Characters can get one skill point and 100 euro per year if they roll on a special lifepath that has only the negative results.

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

As much as I love Cyberpunk 2020 it has many problems. The fact that someone with an average body can carry 132 lbs with no encumbrance is one. The inconsistencies of later material is another.

The best source for all the rules I have seen is Reference book 5.
http://www.cyberpedia.eu.org/Download/Cyberpunk 2020 - Reference Book 5.pdf

In one of the books I remember seeing that if there is anything you want to bring into the game just use the current price in euro.

The way I remember:
Steel Katanas are 3d6
Steel Wakasashis are 2d2

Monokatanas/Wakasashis are 4d6/3d6 and cut through armor more easily. Soft armor is at 1/3 hard armor is at 2/3.

You can add a monomolecular edge to a weapon. It increases the damage by 1d6 and gives it the same armor penetration.

You can have any weapon made out of orbital crystal. This makes the weapon almost unbreakable and adds a d6 to the damage. We have ruled that you can not have mono orbital crystal weapons.

Then you have power swords. It is a monosword with a powered hilt. It is even more fragile than the monokatana. The power sword cuts through armor even better. Hard armor is at half, soft armor is at a quarter. Power swords also take a round to warm up after they are drawn. Until they are warmed it they work like a regular monosword.

We use the rules from Pac Rim for martial arts. The weapons listed for each martial art get the bonus damage from skill level. We have however reduced the damage bonus by half. Characters can only use the weapons listed with the martial art. If they use any other weapon it is will the Melee skill. The customizable martial arts like U-Ar-Do or Streetfighting get to pick 2 weapons for each point in Strike. Also the max they can put in any move is 4.

We have moved to a Fuzion like game. Split some stats and some skills. Added advantages and disadvantages. Expanded the lifepath so we could make older and more experienced characters. Characters can get one skill point and 100 euro per year if they roll on a special lifepath that has only the negative results.

Well, based upon that list, the only actual stats for any form of Wakizashi is the Arasaka Wakizashi from Firestorm: Shockwave, which is 2D6+3* (hard SP/2), so that's what I have to go by. The Mono-Two set is a orbital crystal monokatana and monoknife (according to the smaller weapon's damage), a tanto-shaped weapon, and a wakizashi certainly does more damage than a tanto. Either that or someone screwed up and put the wrong damage in Chromebook 1 (given that it's concealment rating is J instead of P— the monoknife's concealment rating—, this is quiet likely),

That still leaves me with his "more formal" attire, the traditional kimono, hakama, and kataginu.

 

[wisdom000]

I can't find costs and stats for certain articles of clothing he heeds, or a way to "build" them. The one outfit I need (preferably at least lightly armored for protection) is a full silk traditional Kataginu Kamisimo set (yukata, kimono, hakama, kataginu, obi, tabi, and sandals)


I've gone through the Pacific Rim Sourcebook and can't find any costs or stats on tradtiional Japanese outfits, even though a number of the characters in it wear them. and neither 203X nor Chromebook 4 have been much help here. Does anyone know of any official costs and stats on these, or ways to create them "by the book"?

I would think a quick look at virtually any reputable martial arts supply site would give you real world prices for those items, double or triple them depending on quality. Not sure why this was an issue.... For the added cost of Armor, refer to Chrome 3.

As for a Wakizashi, check this out...
http://datafortress2020.com/ma_list.htm

---------- Updated at 10:36 PM ----------

Yeah; where *is* @wisdom000 ? Figured he would've posted to this thread a while ago.

Probably too busy griefing noobs in GTA5. =p

yes....

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

I would think a quick look at virtually any reputable martial arts supply site would give you real world prices for those items, double or triple them depending on quality. Not sure why this was an issue.... For the added cost of Armor, refer to Chrome 3.

You mean Chromebook 4. Yeah, I've been doing that, but what I have found is all over the place in terms of prices, at least for Hakama and Kimonos, and the only Kataginu I've found are all custom made on Ebay. You'd figure that the Pacific Rim Sourcebook would have "something" given that several characters are depicted wearing such outfits, and it's one of the results on the Japanese specific Life Path table in the PAC, but nothing.

As for a Wakizashi, check this out...
http://datafortress2020.com/ma_list.htm

I've already downloaded that and your Illustrated Weapons Guide. I'm more interested in official stats, not home-brewed ones. So far, the Arasaka Daisho are the only official ostensibly steel Daisho there is, based upon their stats. Your Illustrated Weapons Guide had the wrong stats for those weapons too. I looked them up in the Firestorm: Shockwave sourcebook. I still find it odd that the PAC makes a number of mentions of traditional Daisho, but no stats for them. Where did you get the stats you used in your Illustrated Guide? The Guide says they're from the PAC, but there were no such stats in the book, and the stats for the Arasaka blades you give also don't match up with their cited source either. In fact, the stats you give in the Illistrated Guide for a traditional Daisho that you cite as coming from the PAC , more closely matches the Arasaka Daisho from page 80 of FS: Shockwave, just lacking the +3 to damage with the Wakizashi, and that Sourcebook lists no prices either, so I'm curious where you got your stats and prices from given that they don't match the source books the guide cites very well at all.

 

[wisdom000]

You mean Chromebook 4. Yeah, I've been doing that, but what I have found is all over the place in terms of prices, at least for Hakama and Kimonos, and the only Kataginu I've found are all custom made on Ebay. You'd figure that the Pacific Rim Sourcebook would have "something" given that several characters are depicted wearing such outfits, and it's one of the results on the Japanese specific Life Path table in the PAC, but nothing.

Oops, yeah I meant 4, been a long week. Don't know what to tell you on the clothing costs, sounds like an issue for your GM to call.

I've already downloaded that and your Illustrated Weapons Guide. I'm more interested in official stats, not home-brewed ones.

Ok, though I will tell you, there is absolutely no discernable formula for the original stats of the martial arts, in particular difficulty modifiers, And their idea of what forms train in weapons and which don't is pretty silly as well.

So far, the Arasaka Daisho are the only official ostensibly steel Daisho there is, based upon their stats. Your Illustrated Weapons Guide had the wrong stats for those weapons too. I looked them up in the [iFirestorm: ]Shockwave[/i] sourcebook. I still find it odd that the PAC makes a number of mentions of traditional Daisho, but no stats for them. Where did you get the stats you used in your Illustrated Guide? The Guide says they're from the PAC, but there were no such stats in the book, and the stats for the Arasaka blades you give also don't match up with their cited source either. In fact, the stats you give in the Illistrated Guide for a traditional Daisho that you cite as coming from the PAC , more closely matches the Arasaka Daisho from page 80 of FS: Shockwave, just lacking the +3 to damage with the Wakizashi, and that Sourcebook lists no prices either, so I'm curious where you got your stats and prices from given that they don't match the source books the guide cites very well at all.

I did not write Ultra-Chrome/The Illustrated Weapons Guide. All I did was find images to go along with the reference guide created by Node 16. I would advise you to track them down and ask them your questions, the same as I did. This is not the first mistake in reference that has been discovered, probably won't be the last. Sorry, thats really all I can tell you. Why do you think I have written so much. a large portion of the material I have written, particularly in regards to rules and martial arts/melee weapons, is because so much of the original material felt so incomplete.

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

Oops, yeah I meant 4, been a long week. Don't know what to tell you on the clothing costs, sounds like an issue for your GM to call.

I don't currently have a GM. This is basically "rebuilding" of some old characters based upon a comic book I'm writing, both for reference, as well as to play in any game I can, or even run. I've got a whole team.

Ok, though I will tell you, there is absolutely no discernable formula for the original stats of the martial arts, in particular difficulty modifiers, And their idea of what forms train in weapons and which don't is pretty silly as well.

I don't seem to have too much of a problem with them, the book is just missing some weapons' stats which don't appear until later sourcebooks, even though it mentions them (namely katana and wakizashi, which don't get actual stats unit FS SW).

[

[I did not write Ultra-Chrome/The Illustrated Weapons Guide. All I did was find images to go along with the reference guide created by Node 16. I would advise you to track them down and ask them your questions, the same as I did. This is not the first mistake in reference that has been discovered, probably won't be the last. Sorry, thats really all I can tell you. Why do you think I have written so much. a large portion of the material I have written, particularly in regards to rules and martial arts/melee weapons, is because so much of the original material felt so incomplete.

OK, so what is your take on my question regarding the About Monoblades rule from the PAC, and using it in reverse to allow traditional tamagahane steel Daisho for Ninjutsu in lieu of the Mono-Two set, given that the Mono-Two set is essentially a mono-blade version of the traditional Daisho?

 

[wisdom000]

I don't currently have a GM. This is basically "rebuilding" of some old characters based upon a comic book I'm writing, both for reference, as well as to play in any game I can, or even run. I've got a whole team.







I don't seem to have too much of a problem with them, the book is just missing some weapons' stats which don't appear until later sourcebooks, even though it mentions them (namely katana and wakizashi, which don't get actual stats unit FS SW).



OK, so what is your take on my question regarding the About Monoblades rule from the PAC, and using it in reverse to allow traditional tamagahane steel Daisho for Ninjutsu in lieu of the Mono-Two set, given that the Mono-Two set is essentially a mono-blade version of the traditional Daisho?

katana, 3d6, wakizashi, 2d6... I gave you this answer when I linked you to my martial arts page...

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

katana, 3d6, wakizashi, 2d6... I gave you this answer when I linked you to my martial arts page...

That's not what I meant. I'm talking about given that the Mono-Two is useable as Martial Arts weapons with Ninjutsu, and is essentially a mono-blade version of a Daisho, should the traditional Daisho (katana/wakizash seti) also get that same Martial Arts Weapons usage with Ninjutsu based upon the About Monoblades rule.

 

[wisdom000]

That's not what I meant. I'm talking about given that the Mono-Two is useable as Martial Arts weapons with Ninjutsu, and is essentially a mono-blade version of a Daisho, should the traditional Daisho (katana/wakizash seti) also get that same Martial Arts Weapons usage with Ninjutsu based upon the About Monoblades rule.

short answer: yes
Long answer: this is one of the flaws of the system, since most martial arts teach some form of weapon training.
Also, the idea of keeping Fencing, Melee, Brawl, and Martial Arts as completely seperate skills... just bloody silly.

 

[Sardukhar]

short answer: yes
Long answer: this is one of the flaws of the system, since most martial arts teach some form of weapon training.
Also, the idea of keeping Fencing, Melee, Brawl, and Martial Arts as completely seperate skills... just bloody silly.

You left out Dodge/Escape. Used to Dodge, unlike the +Dodge in your Martial Art. You know, because that makes it even clearer.

Fencing is the science of foil and epee. Melee is -every other weapon ever-. Brawl is punching and biting people. Martial Arts is Brawl+Melee+Fencing!

Perfectly clear.

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

short answer: yes
Long answer: this is one of the flaws of the system, since most martial arts teach some form of weapon training.
Also, the idea of keeping Fencing, Melee, Brawl, and Martial Arts as completely seperate skills... just bloody silly.

I don't see it as "completely silly". I do see the logic behind it. While many martial arts do teach weapons training, not all do (Karate and Judo, for example), so I can see why they have it as it's own group of skills with some Martial Arts having weapons bonuses and others not. I also see why you'd have brawling separate from Martial Arts, since "brawling" is essentially untrained fighting, whereas Martial Artists are deadly weapons in and of themselves.