Nekker Warrior and Alpha Werewolf should have power/provision balanced.

[rrc]

Back Story:
There were two bronze Engines which were break-even on deploy. Magne Division and Nekker Warrior. Magne Division had multiple disadvantages like your own Roach can stop it or the enemy can move cards and stop it (it is kind of row locked), you are susceptible to Lacrete and any other row stack punish cards. And the other, Nekker Warrior had NO disadvantages at all. And CDPR fixed the former.

The very definition of Engine cards is that they should not break even on deploy and get their value over time (most of the engines break-even the next round and any further rounds will be a profit). Nekker Warrior breaks this rule. It is break-even on deploy which is purely wrong and needs to be fixed. The only possible explanation is, Nekker Warrior should be deployed a little later for the thrive to be benefitted and hence it may not come into play immediately on deploy. Luckily, here, the problem is the solution. If Nekker Warrior is 3 power, then it can come relatively earlier to the board and can be benefitted by Werewolves or Alpha Werewolves or various other 4+ point cards.

Alpha Werewolves is an immune engine which can break even in the next round it gets played. It is as though the Immune Tag doesn't have any value. It is absolutely ridiculous. An immune engine should not have the same kind of power : provision as a normal engine cards. Alpha Werewolves should either have 3 power or the provision should be increased to 6.

What is the opinion of the community about these proposed changes?

 

[Rammyp]

Although i can't say i am too bothered by those cards, you have a point.
I can also say that by that logic the Reinforced Trebuchet should be in this group as well as 5 provision 4 str engine that does 1 dmg at the end of the turn thus breaking even in the end of the turn being deployed (assuming ofc there is an enemy unit in the ranged row).

 

[rrc]

Although i can't say i am too bothered by those cards, you have a point.
I can also say that by that logic the Reinforced Trebuchet should be in this group as well as 5 provision 4 str engine that does 1 dmg at the end of the turn thus breaking even in the end of the turn being deployed (assuming ofc there is an enemy unit in the ranged row).

I have mentioned it multiple times that Reinforced Trebutchet is an auto-include card (IMHO) which should be balanced. It breaks even on deploy, yes. But it can be denied by withholding playing in Ranged row or moving it. In a small to mid R3, it can even be denied and opponent can simply not play in Ranged row. It has some disadvantages, but, yes, I think it should be an Order ability (making it synergize with other order ability units and in sync with NR). In that way, it doesn't break even, fits NR style, and even synergize with Arbalist, Cavalryman. Lets discuss Reinforced Trebutchet in another thread. For now, I am concerned about Nekker Warrior and Alpha Werewolf, both of which need provision increase or power reduction.

 

[bessel00]

It is as though the Immune Tag doesn't have any value.

It seems to me that the immune tag is worth 1 provision point here, while the thrive tag strangely worth nothing. The situation is a bit similar with other cards with thrive tags such as archespore, nekker worrier and drowner. On board, they can easily offer the effective/actual value equal to that of their provision. In most cases, they usually offer 1 or 2 (if not more) points beyond their provision.
I think at the moment, the tag thrive is not properly quantitized with the provision system.

 

[FG15-ISH7EG]

I always found the Nekker Warrior rather weak, because there aren't that many cards with higher strength ( I didn't knew that consume did trigger thrive, too). There are only 5 bronze ones and a bit more than 20 gold ones. Furthermore, if you want to use other Thrive units too, you have to play the Nekker Warrior rather late in the round, such that it can't get that much value either. And for Alpha Werewolf it is quite similar, except that I don't know how much the immunity is really worth.

Also, I think the suggestions of the other thread should weaken those two cards considerably, if consume doesn't trigger Thrive anymore.

If that isn't enough, I'd suggest not directly weakening their provisions or strength, but instead increasing both the strength and provisions by 1 for both of them. This way the number of cards triggering their Thrive would be drastically reduced (only 1 bronze and 7 golds without consume).

 

[Sleeperko]

Alpha werefolf is the same abomination as Milwa. Personally, I do not understand thought process behind developing immune engines.
Any way you think about it, there is no reason to not include them in any deck, ever. Even when the meta completely shifts and more cards will be included.

 

[rrc]

Alpha werefolf is the same abomination as Milwa. Personally, I do not understand thought process behind developing immune engines.
Any way you think about it, there is no reason to not include them in any deck, ever. Even when the meta completely shifts and more cards will be included.

Milva is 3 power and 7 provisions. For her to break even, you have to play four ST *units*. Also, you should never play her first as she can be killed by many ways. She should be played at least as the second card. If Alpha Werewolf is with 7 provisions, I wouldn't have mentioned it here. With 5 provisions and 4 power, it is just ridiculous.

It seems to me that the immune tag is worth 1 provision point here, while the thrive tag strangely worth nothing. The situation is a bit similar with other cards with thrive tags such as archespore, nekker worrier and drowner. On board, they can easily offer the effective/actual value equal to that of their provision. In most cases, they usually offer 1 or 2 (if not more) points beyond their provision.
I think at the moment, the tag thrive is not properly quantitized with the provision system.

If immune is worth 1 provision point, then it is effectively break even on deploy. An engine card. Which is just purely wrong.

Also, I think the suggestions of the other thread should weaken those two cards considerably, if consume doesn't trigger Thrive anymore.

I agree. I wanted to mentioned that too. If the suggestion of the other thread is implemented, these cards are OK. Consume triggering thrive is just illogical and creates this imbalance.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

I always found the Nekker Warrior rather weak, because there aren't that many cards with higher strength ( I didn't knew that consume did trigger thrive, too). There are only 5 bronze ones and a bit more than 20 gold ones. Furthermore, if you want to use other Thrive units too, you have to play the Nekker Warrior rather late in the round, such that it can't get that much value either. And for Alpha Werewolf it is quite similar, except that I don't know how much the immunity is really worth.

I get what you're saying here. It's presumably "balanced" because other engines have a larger ceiling when they stick. Nekker Warrior has less ways to gain 1 per turn. To some extent I would agree with this argument. However, Nekker Warrior has some advantages unavailable to other engines.

It does not have to stick to break even with the value. It only has to be played. Most other engines do not behave this way. They must remain on the board to break even. They frequently yield value at a cost deficit if they do not. This is how they are balanced. High value potential with risk attached to it.

The condition is easier to satisfy compared to most of the other engines. Nekker Warrior is largely set it and forget it. You play the card then you play a bigger card. This is true of all thrives. The prerequisites for playing the card are minimal at best. Run bigger units. This is in stark contrast to most engines. Either due to restrictions in the deck builder (NR and ST engines, for the most part) or board restrictions based on the card (again, ST engines, some NR engines and a few from NG and SK).

It's not exclusively about the provision cost vs the value either. Any time you consider a card it's equally important to look at the type of point swing it can create. With a set of Nekkers and an Archespore on the board a Nekker Warrior can translate to a 7 point swing on a 4p bronze card since those other thrives will trigger. This is pretty good. Very few of the other bronze engines can do this without being on the board for multiple turns. In fact, this is a big reason thrive is so powerful. Not only does it provide engine functionality but the ability to snowball points, and steadily increment them on each card play. It's why destroying or locking thrives is often a necessity to stay in a long round against thrive + big boy spam.

Having said all of that.... I don't know if it needs adjusted that much. Dropping the body could conceivably be a buff to some degree. Raising the provision cost a tad might be okay. I think the larger issue with thrives is the flexibility. They're effectively deploy engines with nearly no restrictions. Most other engines have a restriction. Either they are row locked, have reach limitations or must have a deck built around their inclusion. This limits the counter-play and makes the "building" far too easy.

Alpha Werewolf is another matter.... A 4 power immune thrive unit for 5 provisions is arguably too much rolled into a single unit. I could definitely see the card costing 6 provisions and being perfectly viable. I'd rather Immune disappear from the game completely but it's probably not realistic.