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Agent_Blue

Guest
#361
Mar 1, 2013
Randomdrowner said:
When it comes to some types of action, it is central that consent/permission is communicated and given or the action becomes an entirely different action.
This should be clear enough.
Click to expand...
I have to agree with cmdr_flashheart on this one.
The dramatic fabric is strong enough to withstand some ellipsis. Not that big of a deal.

You say ranged and bomb arracks would have to accommodate some form of friendly fire. So what kind of in game reason would we be given if Geralt's sword accidently and yet visibly runs through a NPCs stomach but he's not harmed at all?

Say Geralt is about to rescue a kidnaped NPC, who is tied up in a room along with 3 foes. Geralt walks in, does his thing, but, darn, the blade cuts through the kidnaped.

What should happen?
 
ReptilePZ

ReptilePZ

Wordrunner
#362
Mar 1, 2013
AgentBlue said:
I have to agree with cmdr_flashheart on this one.
The dramatic fabric is strong enough to withstand some ellipsis. Not that big of a deal.

You say ranged and bomb arracks would have to accommodate some form of friendly fire. So what kind of in game reason would we be given if Geralt's sword accidently and yet visibly runs through an NPCs stomach but he isn't harmed at all?

Say he is about to rescue a kidnaped NPC, who is tied up in a room along with 3 foes. Geralt walks in, does his thing, but, darn, the blade cuts through the kidnaped.

What should happen?
Click to expand...
Question: What's the problem with enabling firendly fire just for that quest? You get your consequences, the devs know they've enabled FF so they can focus on the consequences of the kidnapped NPC dying in that particular quest, and it doesn't screw with Geralt's character by not allowing the possibility of a pointless mass slaughter.

If you had control of every single move, and I do mean everything - from the force of the blow to the direction of the swing to the positioning of Geralt and the distribution of his weight on his legs (as battles are described in the books), then I can see the point in enabling friendly fire in more situations (still not always on since, again, mindless slaughter isn't exactly Geralt's style). As of yet, the combat system isn't that precise so the player has very little control over how exactly Geralt is going to swing his sword so punishing them for a mistake they couldn't have foreseen or avoided would feel cheap instead of challenging. Considering the targeting problems previous games had, I feel like always on friendly fire is generally a bad idea.

I totally see where you're coming from but there's all sorts of problems having friendly fire enabled at all times can cause which is why I compared it to unlimited fast travel in a previous post.
 
C

cmdr_silverbolt

Senior user
#363
Mar 1, 2013
Randomdrowner said:
When it comes to some types of action, it is central that consent/permission is communicated and given or the action becomes an entirely different action. How else can you know what type of action was performed and what it means outside of ones own solipsistic head-canon?
This should be clear enough.
Click to expand...
It's not necessary to enforce realism ad absurdum into games, if anything that makes a game less appealing.
 
V

vongraudenz

Rookie
#364
Mar 2, 2013
Having an NPC being unkillable is not necessarily a permanent state. It is possible to turn it on and off multiple times for the same NPC depending upon the situation, so I am not very concerned about this. Besides you don't want to be known as the greatest mass murderer in history, then even if you find your "true" love, you would be forever hunted.
One thing I never did understand about some RPGs is why they allowed you to go into any random house and take stuff from it. The Witcher games have hardly been the only games to allow this. I could understand it in games where thief characters were possible and it was a mechanic of the game with the attendant consequences if caught. Why not just have the doors locked on the houses that had no relevance to any quest. Include the structure to populate a city street or a village, but just don't make so you can't interact with it. Of course if in W3 there is a consequence to getting caught stealing then I can see letting you enter random houses on a whim.
 
R

Randomdrowner2015

Senior user
#365
Mar 2, 2013
AgentBlue said:
I have to agree with cmdr_flashheart on this one.
The dramatic fabric is strong enough to withstand some ellipsis. Not that big of a deal.

You say ranged and bomb arracks would have to accommodate some form of friendly fire. So what kind of in game reason would we be given if Geralt's sword accidently and yet visibly runs through a NPCs stomach but he's not harmed at all?

Say Geralt is about to rescue a kidnaped NPC, who is tied up in a room along with 3 foes. Geralt walks in, does his thing, but, darn, the blade cuts through the kidnaped.

What should happen?
Click to expand...

First of all, I think that good RPGs (and similar choice and exploration based games) must be designed to ”flow” when played in accordance with your characters motivations and actions. Each node in the story provides with an extra push providing momentum to the developing and mutually reinforcing cohesion between narrative, environment and character. This teaches the player to take the game-world seriously and rewards roleplaying with an immserive experience.

It should not reward stupidity (illogical action relative to the story, setting or character)or not taking what is happening seriously (if stealing from someone and getting caught, it should not come as a surprise if it will result in hostility, bad reputation and in some cases even inability to complete storylines that would be affected by the consequences of such an action. Any option of behaving uncharacteristic, strange or acting like you are crazy is translated into the game as your character actually has lost it -of course there are degrees - and the game-world will react to it in an appropriate manner.)

But yes, it can go too far for some players (for example, a lot of non-super hardcore RPG-fans would find it annoying if you needed to keep track on hunger, thirst and the need to take a dump) so think it is important that a good game or story has a tolerance towards different levels of immersion and attention to detail as long as they are not expressing (socially)illogical behaviour.

I often use the image of a beautiful pond as an analogy to a good narrative- or rpg-structure.

The pond should be designed so that is pleasing to look at even if you are not paying much attention to the surroundings or what is under the surface, but those who can see such things should have an even greater experience, seeing how many beautiful details interconnect to form a greater whole and how they relate to one another. A story and game should be designed in such a way that those unfortunate people who can only see the surface of the pond - with its clear water mirroring the sky, water lilies and colourful fishes coming up to feed on water insects – as a rewarding experience. But it would be a shame if it is not designed for those who do pay attention and figure stuff out (how the sream is feeding the ponds water supply, the colour of the stones and banks of sand at the bottom, the stems of the water lilies serving as hiding place for smaller fish and their eggs etc)then it is superficial construct lacking in consistent quality (where the hell does the water come from, I can hear the brook but there is none to be seen? Why does the water-liles have no stem?)

One way to fix issues associated with ”hyper-realism” (the need to eat, etc) – besides having different game modes of course – is to have such things designed into the game at regular natural pauses in gameplay. Such as: cutscenes with eating and drinking with friends or showing the hero sleeping in the camp with empty leftovers of food and drink beside the campfire, etc.

Its very easy to avoid the problem of Geralt acquiring stuff in a questionable manner and change it to Geralt acquiring stuff in a clearly non-ambigius ways. This is not some ”realism in absurdum”. Geralt walking into peoples home and taking stuff is pretty damn contra-intuitive behaviour if you are not playing a guy who just goes wherever he pleases uninvited and takes stuff – which you are hardly playing as you are playing Geralt whos character is largely defined.



With that being said, over to the issues with Combat and friendly fire.

When it comes to combat, I would not think its strange with a system where all characters who comes in ”contact” with a weapon in action gets injured. Geralt would probably not want to have any friendlies in close proximity to his target as it would be a distraction to think of their safety. This could with advantage be reflected in the game.

Here there is possible room for examining how viable it would be to implement a fighting mode that involves a penalty of sorts when Geralt is fighting with friendlies in close proximity, such as only being able to use ”safe attacks” less acrobatic/mobile combat movement with no sweeping or circular sword moves that would risk hitting people on the sides etc.
 

Agent_Blue

Guest
#366
Mar 2, 2013
ReptilePZ said:
Question: What's the problem with enabling firendly fire just for that quest? You get your consequences, the devs know they've enabled FF so they can focus on the consequences of the kidnapped NPC dying in that particular quest, and it doesn't screw with Geralt's character by not allowing the possibility of a pointless mass slaughter.

If you had control of every single move, and I do mean everything - from the force of the blow to the direction of the swing to the positioning of Geralt and the distribution of his weight on his legs (as battles are described in the books), then I can see the point in enabling friendly fire in more situations (still not always on since, again, mindless slaughter isn't exactly Geralt's style). As of yet, the combat system isn't that precise so the player has very little control over how exactly Geralt is going to swing his sword so punishing them for a mistake they couldn't have foreseen or avoided would feel cheap instead of challenging. Considering the targeting problems previous games had, I feel like always on friendly fire is generally a bad idea.

I totally see where you're coming from but there's all sorts of problems having friendly fire enabled at all times can cause which is why I compared it to unlimited fast travel in a previous post.
Click to expand...

Ok. I've given this some thought now.

This affair was first presented as an ethical issue that needed to be enforced from top down. In other words, because indiscriminate killing was out of character, the game simply should not allow it. But if the focus is shifted towards practicality, on how to account for the inherent inaccuracy of current targeting systems, then I'd be ok with selective friendly fire.

This is an important distinction. Those who seek to have this moral stance hardcoded into the game will never accept FF no matter how perfect of a targeting system we may get in the future.

So my stance is revised. Make it so FF is enabled in the broadest possible number of scenarios and keep working at it, so we may get a perfect targeting system in the future, one where FF is always on
 
B

blackgriffin

Senior user
#367
Mar 2, 2013
Would it be wrong if Geralt used the axi sign to do a jedy "there is nothing to see here" if cought steeling in order to get away with it. I mean we are still going to steal from houses so we should get a stealth/stealing sistem or a way to talk out of problems.
Frendly fire should only be in hard/ dark etc difficulty and preferably no way of accidently killing the one you are suposed to save just because you dont have complete control over the swings, that would just be anoying.
 
H

harhar

Forum regular
#368
Mar 2, 2013
They could also make a K.O. state like in Gothic. If Geralt beats down nonhostile people they will just be K.O.ed instead of killed. I'd still like to have the option of killing them though. It's just really bad if I can't do what I want, especially in an open world game.
 
U

username_2093396

Senior user
#369
Mar 2, 2013
Greenei said:
They could also make a K.O. state like in Gothic. If Geralt beats down nonhostile people they will just be K.O.ed instead of killed. I'd still like to have the option of killing them though. It's just really bad if I can't do what I want, especially in an open world game.
Click to expand...
Maybe in the next game with a new character :) Geralt only kills people who attack him, so it would be too far out of character to allow the player to intentionally kill innocent people (not counting any possible quest scenarios where Geralt might accidentally kill someone or let someone die due to prioritizing something else).
 
ReptilePZ

ReptilePZ

Wordrunner
#370
Mar 2, 2013
AgentBlue said:
Ok. I've given this some thought now.

This affair was first presented as an ethical issue that needed to be enforced from top down. In other words, because indiscriminate killing was out of character, the game simply should not allow it. But if the focus is shifted towards practicality, on how to account for the inherent inaccuracy of current targeting systems, then I'd be ok with selective friendly fire.

This is an important distinction. Those who seek to have this moral stance hardcoded into the game will never accept FF no matter how perfect of a targeting system we may get in the future.

So my stance is revised. Make it so FF is enabled in the broadest possible number of scenarios and keep working at it, so we may get a perfect targeting system in the future, one where FF is always on
Click to expand...
FF won't be a problem after TW3 since that's going to be the end of Geralt's story. You wouldn't have to account for the morality of an already established character/personality. That would allow for more freedom of player choice.

Even if combat for TW3 was perfect, I'd still be against always on FF simply because of Geralt's morality. Just limited FF when it makes sense in the narrative - you personally may not want to go murder a village cause you find it fun, but some guy might want to do that and with FF always enabled he will do just that. Geralt certainly wouldn't though, and that's where the problem is.

Anyway, the devs have said FF won't be on and I honestly don't think it's a huge deal. If they wanna deal with Geralt deciding to sacrifice an innocent/many lives for his own goals (e.g. in TW2, going after Loredo instead of saving the people from the burning building; in TW1, Geralt murdering a big amount of the people living on the Outskirts of Vizima to save Abigail) then they are more than capable of doing this in a cutscene/dialogue in a much more powerful and meaningful way than a random slash of the sword could.
 

Agent_Blue

Guest
#371
Mar 2, 2013
ReptilePZ said:
Even if combat for TW3 was perfect, I'd still be against always on FF simply because of Geralt's morality.
Click to expand...
You're right, it does go against his morality.
Simply, it's not up to the Devs to enforce it from top down.

That's always been my point.

I'll concede some latitude here for the sake of practicality, not because I wish to see Devs uphold Geralt's morality. Ideally, player choice should take precedence over that.

Cutscnees, like all forms of exposition, are less engaging than gameplay, there's no question about that.

But since FF is out, let's put this to a civil end.
 
T

trae

Rookie
#372
Mar 2, 2013
No friendly fire, please. Geralt can draw his sword whenever he wants to but simply will not attack non-hostile targets. Bombs and signs shouldn't affect civilians either, but they should panic and try to escape the area of effect.

Why? Because implementing a proper FF system would require an insane amount of work for very little practical benefit.

For example, what should happen if Geralt accidentally slashed an important NPC? Would that NPC simply turn hostile? I guess there should be some recorded dialogue. What if the situation was such that the NPC in question simply could not afford to actually make Geralt his enemy, would he simply be irritated and try to stab you in the back later? Would there be a cutscene for that? How would Triss and Dandelion and your other friends react if you randomly killed someone? Could you still interact will people necessary for quests, or would they rather not have anything to do with you? What if you destroyed an entire village but let a few people escape, would people start to attack you on sight? What would your friends say to that?

And so on. All that is very much possible to actually implement in the game. But it would require a huge amount of developer resources for something that Geralt would never, ever do.

Of course, the other option would be a half-assed, cheap imitation of this. If you attack an NPC, he turns hostile and fights you to the death. Random guards will be summoned. Your friends and important NPCs either ignore everything or join the fight. Quests associated with your target will be unfinishable, possibly giving a Game Over. No one will ever reference your actions in dialogue, possibly aside from being generally angry towards you.

I find that kind of implementation extremely superficial, jarring and non-immersive. I'd rather not be able to attack civilians at all. It avoids the whole can of worms while ensuring that the game actually makes some sense - and it takes no developer resources whatsoever.
 
ReptilePZ

ReptilePZ

Wordrunner
#373
Mar 2, 2013
AgentBlue said:
I'll concede some latitude here for the sake of practicality, not because I wish to see Devs uphold Geralt's morality. Ideally, player choice should take precedence over that.
Click to expand...
Again, since Geralt is a pre-defined character, you simply cannot break his character to allow more freedom for players. He's not Shepard who just has a backstory and just a blank personality. Unlike characters like Shepard, the Warden from DA:O, your TES main character etc. Geralt's got 7 books (and 2 games) that define his beliefs so his morality is pretty clear at this point.

If we were talking about a blank character that you create from scratch, then I wouldn't really care about FF and stuff like that. I hope you understand this.


AgentBlue said:
But since FF is out, let's put this to a civil end.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
 
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