NG: Should Copy/Steal Cards have a greater downside?

[Goatboy_]

NG Fans, hear me out. I know you love your favorite faction very much (I did too ... when I started GWENT, but moved on to other factions) but I want to discuss the infamous spy mechanic and some of the "stealing" cards - especially the card Duchess's Informant. Personally I can't stand to face my own played cards in a matchup against NG, that topic has been an evergreen in both the forums and at reddit.

I thought about a change and I wanted to hear your opinion. What mostly annoys me is that NG can play my cards without any serious disadvantage, even if they gave me one Point with that Duchess's Informant. If they copy my machines like Sly Seductress, Cat Witcher or even An Craite Greatsword they usually got the upper hand. It can only get worse if they pull that old Cantarella - Coup de Grace Combo.

I was thinking: if NG copy or steal one of my cards there should be a significant downside to that. Maybe something like "Play the top card from your opponent's deck and damage it by 3" or "Spawn and play a base copy of a bronze enemy unit and damage it by 2". I don't want to destroy one of NGs all-time-favorite toys, but I personally think that a change like this could benefit both players. NG Players can still pull their lock-copy-combos and the enemy won't struggle every time if Cantarella pulls a card which is damaged or even killed.

What do you guys think?

 

[Draconifors]

No. Absolutely not.

Duchess's Informant is perfectly fine, and there is exactly no reason or need to change her. If you can't deal with her then that is on you.
Cantarella is RNG unless comboed with something, and can play for negative points.

I don't want to destroy one of NGs all-time-favorite toys

Your ideas suggest the complete opposite of this statement. You are clearly after destroying at least Assimilate, which isn't even meta in the first place.

Something being annoying in no way justifies utterly butchering it. Especially when it is something that no one else is complaining about.

Yes, I'm a Nilfgaard player, and you can bet I'll defend the faction against outrageous ideas.

 

[Riven-Twain]

What do you guys think?

Personally, I've never liked the agent-heavy Nilfgaard decks, nor the idea of playing cards from an opponent's deck, as a game concept. (Although these tactics can backfire: For example, when my opponent drew all my low cards, recently, leaving me with my strongest to finish.) As a general rule, I find these decks rather tedious to play against.

Although I've no doubt it would require careful balancing, so as not to invalidate the archetype, I favour the idea of more consequences to espionage, either in the form of a damage penalty, as you suggest, or a greater possibility of the infiltrated opponent 'capturing' the spies, and turning the tables against Nilfgaard (somewhat like the old spy-swapping matches in Witcher III's Gwent). After all, no matter how great the Empire may be, whenever one plays at a high-stakes game of spy-craft, there are risks involved.

 

[Messyr]

In all fairness, one could write a lengthy response on this topic, but in reality, this is a clear 'NO'. Just no.

 

[Philido]

The problem with facing NG is that the faction is very often overpowered against engine heavy decks but struggles against pure pointslam like swarm or Midrange. If the NG player can copy something like a Cat Witcher or a Seductress and the opponent can't remove it, then it is indeed very strong and can even be considered unfair with the possible additional Assimilate value. However, getting no good targets for copying is the big downside of this whole strategy and this is (alongside some other unbalanced interactions) why some people absolutely hate NG and others don't understand what these guys are even talking about. NG should move away from its "absolute control" personality and could instead be a hybrid of pointslam with soldiers and control with a few, but not too many locks and poisons. At the same time engines like Foltest, Cahir, Koshchey and a lot more shouldn't exist, because no one wants to lose against these comparably cheap strategies. The greedier the meta, the more Nilfgaard (or even worse Syndicate).

 

[Goatboy_]

OK, thanks for the responses so far. Good comments and opinions I do respect. I was totally aware that some players will hate that idea. It was just a thought. NG is a topic that will always polarize some GWENT players ... and I didn't want to bash the NG players.

I was playing Thronebreaker the other day ... maybe that was the reason for my post. The "spy" mechanic seemed different (swapping, like Riven-Twain mentioned, old school W3 GWENT). Anyway ... new cards are around the corner. We will see what will happen next.

 

[Cyncynat88]

In all fairness, one could write a lengthy response on this topic, but in reality, this is a clear 'NO'. Just no.

I would extend it and say, "ABSOLUTELY NO". As mentioned before, Assimilate is far from being popular or meta; there is no reason to nerf Duchess's Informant. There are many more unbalanced decks that could require some attention.

Besides, Assimilate has received two nerfs in the past months:

1) Masquerade Ball is no longer triggered by Roderick/Joachim
2) Double Cross Provision Points have been cut from 17 to 16

I am not saying that these changes were not justified, I am simply stating the fact that the strength of this archetype has been reduced.

And how would that damage work anyway? Let's say I want to copy your Elven Swordmaster - I give you 1-point Informant and receive 2-point Swordmaster. So, on balance, I get 1 point for playing a 5 provision point card - hardly a recipe for success, wouldn't you say?

As an Assimilate fan, I don't think there is any need to weaken it further. Especially nowadays, when we are flooded with Jackpot, Siege, Tactical Decision or Zeal decks.

 

[quintivarium]

In my opinion, Dutchess’ Informant is fine — if not a little weak. If you can’t play your bronze cards (in a deck in which they are designed to synergize) better than NG in a deck in which they don’t fit, either you are not playing well or your deck does not synergize well — except in conjunction with Assimilate, Dutchess’ Informant should ALWAYS trade down. Moreover, informants easily brick — even against decks where they can potentially get good value: they have no proactive value, no value if there are no bronze cards to copy (often the case in round three), and if used on engines, are always one step behind the card they copied. Finally, they can be played around — and efforts to do so make for interesting, unique games.

I am far less inclined to support some of the other copy/steal cards. Let me list some of those cards. As I have argued in another thread, Viper Witcher Alchemist is very RNG (unless set up). I think the ratio of provision cost to average value for which it plays is sufficiently low to deter its use without set up — except that it is available as as option in the NG location card, a card often played just for its order ability.

Amnesty is a frustrating card — one that has trouble getting value, but is sometimes overwhelming when it does. I would very much like that card gone. But I admit that opinion is entirely personal taste and not an inherent flaw in the card.

Yennifer’s invocation is another card I absolutely hate. I think it is poorly designed because it disables more deck ideas than it enables, and therefore reduces variety. But I do not own it (and have no desire to), so I cannot actually try it. Without trying it, I am not sure I appreciate its subtleties.

The one copy/theft card I would unequivocally criticize is Coup de Grace. Echo is, in general, a horrible, imbalancing mechanism — ALL echo cards are absolutely horrible. But Coup is the worst of the worst. Because of the ease of giving spying status, it basically copies anything — twice during a match — and its usual targets cost more provisions that it.

 

[DRK3]

Well, plenty of answers that said what i was going to say have already been posted, so i'll keep it short.

Copying cards is the mechanic that made me like NG, and why i still consider it one of my favourite factions. I always say 'love NG, hate NG players', because its a faction with many interesting and original strategies, but their players tend to gravitate towards toxicity, like poison, hypercontrol, mill and clog, etc.

I think assimilate and copycat are some of the few wholesome archetypes NG has, and there's nothing wrong or unbalanced with them - in fact, i will post an unusual deck of the sorts to finish up this month on my decks thread - sorry, shameless plug time

Deck of the Day

just a small suggestion. allow your "meta-killers" to be recogized by opening a new threat. this one gets quite large if you keep adding and some of these decks, especially the meme ones are worth keeping somewhre to be found later not burried by a totally different theme btw big Congrats @DRK3...

forums.cdprojektred.com

Now, STEALING, and also seizing, that is a whole different thing, by doing that you are actually interfering with your opponent's resources in a malicious way, im not gonna pretend im a saint, who shunnes those moves and never uses them, but i am willing to argue they may need some sort of balancing and they are a dangerous tool to provide to the players, which can spiral out of control without proper attention.

 

[Cyncynat88]

Of course, seizing units is different from copying them. But let's be honest - do seizing cards see any play? I mean, yes, they can be frustrating, but they play mainly a supporting role. First of all, in NG, you are allowed to seize only units with 3 power or less (Amnesty and Sweers). It may disrupt some engines, but typically it does not spell disaster for your opponent. There is Vattier, but it requires previous set-up and the card itself is vulnerable to nearly all damage cards. When it comes to seizing, Philippa Eilhart from Syndicate is much more deadly - she can play for 21 points, which can decide the result of the match.

I must confess, I have not seen Sweers or Amnesty in a very long time. I played some Amnesty last week but mainly to reach Conspiracy achievement (still way to go)

Cantarella is ok for me - if played without any other cards, it is simply a matter of luck what you get. To play it to its full potential, we need some set-up and that's fine.

As to Mill decks, I no longer play them. I gave them a go some months ago but I came to dislike them and now find them cheap and boring.

 

[Riven-Twain]

The one copy/theft card I would unequivocally criticize is Coup de Grace.

Ay, this card has seen just a shade too much play and replay for my liking, and almost exclusively on agents like Cantarella or Joachim de Wett. I suppose there are ways of foiling it, such as purifying and boosting these spies, but it never seems quite worth the risk.

 

[Lokiat0r]

I played some Amnesty last week but mainly to reach Conspiracy achievement (still way to go)

Conspiracy has to be the most under-supported tag in the entire game. Other than Coup, I almost never see another single conspiracy card played. Given how prevalent NG is, that says a lot...

 

[Barracuda88]

The problem, as I see it (and this is a problem with the LESS-toxic NG, so I'm not even talking about mill, clog and hyperthin, which are entirely a separate issue), is that every NG archtype synergizes with everything else. Informant procs assimilate engine, status engines, spy engines, deploy engines, and it often seems like every card get boosted 2-3 times every turn no matter what you plop down. And it's not just informant, either. Meanwhile, it's a "control" faction supposedly, so its control options are insane, except obviously it has plenty of good engines, obviously it has plenty of thinning, and with blightmaker, vwm and quadruple joachim it also somehow has plenty of pointslam.

Anyway, going back to the problem with assimilate, separate assimilate from spies. Do something to the effect of what OP suggested, damage-wise, but keep the informant on NG side of the board, so that they don't suffer that awful 1-point penalty. Also, make the dame proc from status EXCEPT spying.

 

[Sensimilius]

Just bring back the old chad Cadevarine pls. Not this no-brain BORING OP thing. -_-

 

[Draconifors]

Surely all of you who want to destroy Assimilate and spies realise what would happen if -- and only if as I'm sure CDPR would not pull such a terrible move that would destroy the faction's key identity -- you got your wish?

Clog. Hyperthin. Clog. Clog. Hyperthin. Clog. Is that really what you want? Somehow I don't think so...

 

[Riven-Twain]

Surely all of you who want to destroy Assimilate and spies realise what would happen if -- and only if as I'm sure CDPR would not pull such a terrible move that would destroy the faction's key identity -- you got your wish?

I'm not sure if destruction necessarily is being suggested here, but rather some sort of adjustment to make the decks less frustrating for those who face them. The change needn't be damage. (I'm not great at balancing, but perhaps even boosting spy cards would help. . .)

However, presently, I see spy matches as rather passive experiences, wherein the non-Nilfgaard player sits and watches the opponent go through the routines, with little interaction, or perceived opportunity to intervene. (I may be wrong here, but it's my experience.) This, to my mind, makes the games less fun for one player, while the other has a jolly good laugh. If the game isn't fun for both players, and the unpopular strategies are so prevalent, that players will forfeit when they see a Nilfgaard deck, I think that may be a design aspect worth considering.

Clog. Hyperthin. Clog. Clog. Hyperthin. Clog. Is that really what you want? Somehow I don't think so...

I find that, since all of these, including spies, cause some of us such annoyance, it suggests that Nilfgaard's archetypes could use stand a wee bit of tweaking, overall, to make them more mutually entertaining. However, this may be a broader issue, which applies to all the factions.

 

[radesign]

Nope, NG has poorest bronze synergies to play like other factions.
NG bronzes would have to be compensated with increased 30% power and extra skills and synergies.

 

[Barracuda88]

Nope, NG has poorest bronze synergies to play like other factions.
NG bronzes would have to be compensated with increased 30% power and extra skills and synergies.

Don't know if you read the thread, but it's been mentioned how the informant has synergies with FOUR different types of NG engines: assimilate, spy, status and deploy. So name two things: 1) what other faction unit can proc 4 different types of engines, and 2) what NG bronze units are worse than other faction equivalents by 30%