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Nilfgaard's + Emhyr's Historical Narrative Role (Books & Games Spoilers)

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L

Lieste

Ex-moderator
#41
Jun 20, 2015
It's also something you can discuss with the misses Var Attre, and get from books.
 
Willowhugger

Willowhugger

Forum veteran
#42
Jun 20, 2015
Lieste said:
It's also something you can discuss with the misses Var Attre, and get from books.
Click to expand...
Yeah.

I think, and this is just my opinion, the 3rd invasion was basically Emhyr's "Wag the Dog" because he's got severe problems at home and lots and lots of enemies (remember he had to murder a huge number of people to become Emperor in the first place). So he's invading the North as part of a last ditch attempt to distract his detractors as well as unite the Nilfgaard with military victories.

However, he's failed to come to an agreement with the Trade Guilds. You get more information on this from the Van Attres and in the Palace but the specific mention is here at 17:54.


It's enough that the Trade Guilds are so powerful Emhyr is going to fall soon.
 
C

carlos2033

Rookie
#43
Jun 20, 2015
You know what is interesting fact about Emhyr and north rulers, he is only one that never been on battlefield with his troops , he is always behind scenes and don`t understand all facts from battlefield he rules through fear and always sends his generals and ambasadors on mission, put too much trust in them and think fear is enough but it`s not maybe it`s reason why he lose wars, they just fear him they don`t respect him and when fear is gone they will betray him which we see in game and books. That is reason why he is afraid of nothern rulers and want them dead in W2, they would be on front lines leading troops and give them morale.
 
Willowhugger

Willowhugger

Forum veteran
#44
Jun 20, 2015
carlos2033 said:
You know what is interesting fact about Emhyr and north rulers, he is only one that never been on battlefield with his troops , he is always behind scenes and don`t understand all facts from battlefield he rules through fear and always sends his generals and ambasadors on mission, put too much trust in them and think fear is enough but it`s not maybe it`s reason why he lose wars, they just fear him they don`t respect him and when fear is gone they will betray him which we see in game and books. That is reason why he is afraid of nothern rulers and want them dead in W2, they would be on front lines leading troops and give them morale.
Click to expand...
To be fair, Henselt is an exception as we don't see Radovid doing that either.

And Henselt's death would be silly in any other context of the fact he IS a frontline general.
 
C

carlos2033

Rookie
#45
Jun 20, 2015
Willowhugger said:
To be fair, Henselt is an exception as we don't see Radovid doing that either.

And Henselt's death would be silly in any other context of the fact he IS a frontline general.
Click to expand...
Radovid was with his troops in Vizima, Foltest too he even refuse to hand leadership to Grand master, Foltest was leading his troops in attack on La Valette castle, Henselt was leading his troops on Vergen, both Radovid and Henselt was with his troops in Loc Muinne, even Stennis was in Loc Muinne, Meve in books was leading resistance against nilfgard, all i am saying Emhyr is never near his troops to give them support, as a soldier it`s easier to respect Foltest or Henselt than Emhyr
 
Last edited: Jun 20, 2015
O

Ortwyn

Rookie
#46
Jun 20, 2015
carlos2033 said:
But to game book canon means nothing, in book canon Vesemir is alive, like Sabrina, Assire, Sile, kings and other characters are alive in books but are dead in games.
Click to expand...
Yes, but in books Emhyr is supposed to live in 1290 whereas we have no clue about when other characters you named shall die. This might be one of the reasons why players are pushed to eliminate Radovid and Dijkstra in the game. Emhyr's victory will be likely next game canon.

Willowhugger said:
There's a reference to the fact that Nilfgaard's problem is economic, not JUST his enemies at home.
Click to expand...
It seems that the economic problem is the disruption of trade (var Attre daughters dialogue) which angers the Trade Corporation. And if the war is indecisive, they will gain courage and assassinate Emhyr.

So the key is to keep Nilfgaardians at bay and wait til Emhyr's enemies deal with him. Radovid achieves that due to his tactical genius and Dijkstra probably due to his contacts in Novigard (more gold for Redanian armies). I have no better explanation.

Willowhugger said:
I think, and this is just my opinion, the 3rd invasion was basically Emhyr's "Wag the Dog" because he's got severe problems at home and lots and lots of enemies (remember he had to murder a huge number of people to become Emperor in the first place). So he's invading the North as part of a last ditch attempt to distract his detractors as well as unite the Nilfgaard with military victories.
Click to expand...
As you said this is just your opinion. Let's blame Emhyr whenever it is possible.

carlos2033 said:
You know what is interesting fact about Emhyr and north rulers, he is only one that never been on battlefield with his troops , he is always behind scenes and don`t understand all facts from battlefield he rules through fear and always sends his generals and ambasadors on mission, put too much trust in them and think fear is enough but it`s not maybe it`s reason why he lose wars, they just fear him they don`t respect him and when fear is gone they will betray him which we see in game and books. That is reason why he is afraid of nothern rulers and want them dead in W2, they would be on front lines leading troops and give them morale.
Click to expand...
carlos2033 said:
Radovid was with his troops in Vizima, Foltest too he even refuse to hand leadership to Grand master, Foltest was leading his troops in attack on La Valette castle, Henselt was leading his troops on Vergen, both Radovid and Henselt was with his troops in Loc Muinne, only nilfgard had ambasador and general, even Stennis was in Loc Muinne, Meve in books was leading resistance against nilfgard
Click to expand...
Emhyr rules the Empire bigger than all the Northern kingdoms together. I see no reason why he shall risk his life in a battle or in Loc Muinne. You think that if he had been at Brenna or Sodden Hill he would have won the battle? The answer is no, there were good reasons why the North defeated Nilfgaard (stronger mages and death of Calanthe at Sodden and the Free Company and cowardly Nilfgaardian scouts at Brenna).

And he wanted the Northern kings dead, because without them the country is in turmoil (see Temeria: count Maravel vs baron Kimbolt, Natalis can do basically nothing).
 
Willowhugger

Willowhugger

Forum veteran
#47
Jun 20, 2015
As you said this is just your opinion. Let's blame Emhyr whenever it is possible.
Click to expand...
Eh, I don't want to unnecessary blame Emhyr for stuff that he's not doing. I'd honestly like to know his motivations for this war and I regret we didn't get more tense meetings with him.
 
C

carlos2033

Rookie
#48
Jun 20, 2015
Ortwyn said:
Emhyr rules the Empire bigger than all the Northern kingdoms together. I see no reason why he shall risk his life in a battle or in Loc Muinne. You think that if he had been at Brenna or Sodden Hill he would have won the battle? The answer is no, there were good reasons why the North defeated Nilfgaard (stronger mages and death of Calanthe at Sodden and the Free Company and cowardly Nilfgaardian scouts at Brenna).
Click to expand...
He don`t need to be on front lines i am just saying he is never near battles and puts all his trust in his generals and ambasadors and it`s easier for them to betray him or to disobey orders if he is not around , like generals in Cintra, Shillard in W2 or coward Menoo Coohorn changing his clothes and trying to flee batlefield but met his end by Zoltan company

---------- Updated at 02:32 PM ----------

Ortwyn said:
Yes, but in books Emhyr is supposed to live in 1290 whereas we have no clue about when other characters you named shall die. This might be one of the reasons why players are pushed to eliminate Radovid and Dijkstra in the game. Emhyr's victory will be likely next game canon
Click to expand...
That is true they are mentioned but not by year, his victory could be canon if it would ever be new witcher game in north kingdoms or nilfgard
 
O

Ortwyn

Rookie
#49
Jun 20, 2015
carlos2033 said:
He don`t need to be on front lines i am just saying he is never near battles and puts all his trust in his generals and ambasadors and it`s easier for them to betray him or to disobey orders if he is not around , like generals in Cintra, Shillard in W2 or coward Menoo Coohorn changing his clothes and trying to flee batlefield but met his end by Zoltan company
Click to expand...
Generals of Cintra sacked the city, but I think that Emhyr did not forbid it. He executed them later, because they lost at Sodden Hill. Shilard was loyal. And Menno Coehoorn should have died in the battle? He was no coward, he just knew he lost the battle. His scouts were cowards.
 
C

carlos2033

Rookie
#50
Jun 20, 2015
Ortwyn said:
Shilard was loyal
Click to expand...
Depending on path he try to kill Geralt in W2, even if Emhyr did not order him not to do so he acts on it`s own, and i forgot Stefan Skelen and Vilgeforz they betray him, Emhyr just need to choose his man wiser next time
 
Last edited: Jun 20, 2015
Willowhugger

Willowhugger

Forum veteran
#51
Jun 20, 2015
Ortwyn said:
Generals of Cintra sacked the city, but I think that Emhyr did not forbid it. He executed them later, because they lost at Sodden Hill. Shilard was loyal. And Menno Coehoorn should have died in the battle? He was no coward, he just knew he lost the battle. His scouts were cowards.
Click to expand...
They discuss it in Blood of Elves. Emhyr claims the marshals disobeyed his orders and he executed them for the Massacre along with all of their cohorts, friends, and allies.

Henselt believes this is because they lost.

And while I'm a hater of Emhyr, even I think it's entirely possible because it's they endangered his daughter.
 
O

Ortwyn

Rookie
#52
Jun 20, 2015
carlos2033 said:
Depending on path he try to kill Geralt in W2, even if Emhyr order him not to do so, and i forgot Stefan Skelen and Vilgeforz they betray him, Emhyr just need to choose his man wiser next time
Click to expand...
Well, it is implied that Emhyr might not be happy that Geralt was sentenced to die, but is there any proof stating that he forbade it?

Skellen betrayed, but he was not successful. In fact Neratin Ceka from his gang was loyal to Vattier de Rideaux so Emhyr probably didn't trust him so much.

Emhyr needed Vilgefortz back then. And it is the outcome that matters. Vilgefortz was the most powerful mage and mastermind, but he is dead and Emhyr lives.

Emhyr trusts nobody. Maybe Vattier de Rideaux and his bodyguards from the Impera brigade.
 
V

vivaxardas2015

Rookie
#53
Jun 20, 2015
carlos2033 said:
Depending on path he try to kill Geralt in W2
Click to expand...
He did not get a direct order to spare Geralt. I don't think he was in the loop about Emhyr's family business. Shilard helped Geralt to get out of jail when it did not interfere with his assignment, but when Geralt on Iorveth path became a direct threat, he had no choice, though he regretted that he had to kill a man whom Emperor pardoned.
By the way, his death if Geralt goes after Triss, does not make any fucking sense because killing him before the summit effectively destroyed the entire plan (Letho did not testify and finger all the mages, the Council was created). What was a rush??? To cut his throat and throw him overboard at night on their way back is a much cleaner way for a political assassination then to openly execute a nobleman without a trial in front of a bunch of witnesses. This is one of the character motivation flaws in TW2 story unless you buy into my favorite conspiracy theory that before she died, Assire Var Anahid, in an attempt to prevent a disaster on a summit, somehow managed to bewitch Renauld into murdering him the first chance he got.
 
Willowhugger

Willowhugger

Forum veteran
#54
Jun 20, 2015
Here we go!

“Do not compare us to the elves,” said Henselt of Kaedwen. “You dishonour us with such a comparison. The elves did not know how to fight – they retreated before our ancestors and hid in the mountains and forests. The elves did not treat our ancestors to a Sodden. But we showed the Nilfgaardians what it means to pick a quarrel with us. Do not threaten us with Nilfgaard, Vizimir, don’t sow the seeds of propaganda. Nilfgaard, you say, is at the Yaruga? I say that Nilfgaard is sitting as quiet as a church mouse beyond the river. Because we broke their spine at Sodden. We broke them militarily, and above all we broke their morale. I don’t know whether it is true that Emhyr var Emreis was, at the time, against aggression on such a scale, that the attack on Cintra was the work of some party hostile to him – I take it that if they had defeated us, he would be applauding, and distributing privileges and endowments amongst them. But after Sodden it suddenly turns out he was against it, and that everything which occurred was due to his marshals’ insubordination. And heads fell. The scaffolds flowed with blood. These are certain facts, not rumours. Eight solemn executions, and many more modest ones. Several apparently natural yet mysterious deaths, a good many cases of people suddenly choosing to retire. I tell you, Emhyr fell into a rage and practically finished off his own commanders. So who will lead their army now? The sergeants?”
 
C

carlos2033

Rookie
#55
Jun 20, 2015
vivaxardas2015 said:
He did not get a direct order to spare Geralt. I don't think he was in the loop about Emhyr's family business. Shilard helped Geralt to get out of jail when it did not interfere with his assignment, but when Geralt on Iorveth path became a direct threat, he had no choice, though he regretted that he had to kill a man whom Emperor pardoned.
By the way, his death if Geralt goes after Triss, does not make any fucking sense because killing him before the summit effectively destroyed the entire plan (Letho did not testify and finger all the mages, the Council was created). What was a rush To cut his throat and throw him overboard at night on their way back is a much cleaner way for a political assassination then to openly execute a nobleman without a trial in front of a bunch of witnesses. This is one of the character motivation flaws in TW2 story unless you buy into my favorite conspiracy theory that before she died, Assire Var Anahid, in an attempt to prevent a disaster on a summit, somehow managed to bewitch Renauld into murdering him the first chance he got.
Click to expand...
Haha funny theory but he say orders from the capital before he kill Shilard, or it`s Assire spell so he tought emperor betray him, i can understand that Shilard thinks Geralt is a threat in nilfgardian camp and why he try to kill him, but he also try that in jail when Radovid go away and call Radovid stupid for letting Geralt alive, he is not much of a threat in jail cell

---------- Updated at 04:45 PM ----------

Well, it is implied that Emhyr might not be happy that Geralt was sentenced to die, but is there any proof stating that he forbade it?
Click to expand...
No it`s not stated he forbid it, you are right Shillard say he regretted that he had to kill a man whom emperor pardoned but he has no choice, i rewatch that part again dunno why i got impression that Shilard disobey orders i guess mu memory fade a bit.
Emhyr trusts nobody. Maybe Vattier de Rideaux and his bodyguards from the Impera brigade.
Click to expand...
But how could he trust anyone when almost everyone try to betray him at some point, or he did something to them in past.
 
O

Ortwyn

Rookie
#56
Jun 20, 2015
carlos2033 said:
But how could he trust anyone when almost everyone try to betray him at some point, or he did something to them in past.
Click to expand...
Some kind of instict? It is not easy to be the Emperor.
 
C

CostinRaz

Banned
#57
Jun 20, 2015
Emhyr claims the marshals disobeyed his orders and he executed them for the Massacre along with all of their cohorts, friends, and allies.

Henselt believes this is because they lost.
Click to expand...
Henselt says something different actually. Way I see it Henselt makes a point that if they had won Emhyr would have been promoting his generals/marshals, because he would have had no other political choice besides that ( You just don't kill your military leaders when they won a great victory for you ), but because they failed at Sodden Emhyr was able to punish them.
 
Willowhugger

Willowhugger

Forum veteran
#58
Jun 20, 2015
CostinRaz said:
Henselt says something different actually. Way I see it Henselt makes a point that if they had won Emhyr would have been promoting his generals/marshals, because he would have had no other political choice besides that ( You just don't kill your military leaders when they won a great victory for you ), but because they failed at Sodden Emhyr was able to punish them.
Click to expand...
I dunno, Henselt seems very confused about Emhyr's motives and that's because he doesn't know what we, the audience, will.
 
M

mbaker51591

Rookie
#59
Jun 21, 2015
carlos2033 said:
I just saying it`s make no sense for Radovid to attack Geralt, so what if he is a witness everyone knows that Radovid is killing mages so Phillipa is no different just another dead mage, it`s just there to show us that Radovid is evil and that is right choice to kill him, to me it`s just out of character for Radovid to attack Geralt.
Click to expand...
1st of all Radovid is on Novigard, had anyone here felt suspicious how the hell he is on Novigard at that quest? It seems to me he began to use his tactic to conquer Novigard. Even Emhyr and Nilfgard having trouble to conquer Novigard. Sadly Geralt came and Geralt told him about Phillipa and the latter happen. Having no witness is still important w/ Radovid plan due to it could alert the underground bosses and the crime bosses would start there countermeasure to destroy Novigard's wealth.

So killing Geralt in that quest is not his big mistake, Radovid never expected he will assassinated in that quest.
 
Willowhugger

Willowhugger

Forum veteran
#60
Jun 21, 2015
Whoreson's Betrayal Destroyed the Crime Lord's Alliance.

Hence, the whole plan which was keeping Novigrad free was squashed.

Without Whoreson and his men, they couldn't pull it off.

Hence, Radovid is able to conquer the city with the Eternal Fire's support.

Why he wins the war since he now has a massive boost to his fortunes.
 
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