NR tempo plays?

[PrincessMassacre]

NR tempo plays?

Besides these NR cards:

1. Henselt; limited to a single leader. Most builds are too easy to shut down.
2. Hubert; too easy to shut down a single card, also limited to Foltest. In fact, shares power with Foltest in that case; weak. Hubert's power is just borrowed from somewhere else... it's basically a 7 point silver card...
3. Dijkstra; too unreliable round 1.
4. Natalis; insufficient point value.

By tempo, I mean a single card which can be played and chained for 25-35 points in value, round 1.

This does not include cards like Iris, since she requires 5 units already on the board.

This does not include removals either, since they require the opponent to play points.

Neutral cards are fine, except removals, as long as they synergize with NR decks.

NR has some end-game potential, but lacks any sort of tempo, unless the opponent plays cards.

Even if they do play cards, the most you can hope for is what; Natalis into some machine? lulz.

I mean seriously, if it were up to me, I'd just remove all such tempo from the game, or balance it out. It just doesn't feel right.

Having to play 1-2 cards down because decks lack counters to 25-35 point swings in round 1 is just awkward...

Essentially, you can file this under: More concerns regarding tempo plays and coin toss meta...

 

[Pruny]

NR has stenis and sile into those 13points bronzes when drawn from deck.
Monsters are even worse situation.

 

[PrincessMassacre]

Pruny Requires Stennis and Sile (with Reconnaissance in hand?) as 3+4 points bodies +13 = 20 points. Not worth it. It's 1 point higher than Natalis into Recon/Reinforce, but uses 1 more card. Nevermind, Stennis is a 'random' card, chances are next to nil.

 

[Tschjo]

Aguara + Seltkirk

 

[Bondonkadonk]

Are we talking about NR having a lack of tempo? While I agree there's only some specific cards that do it, I've gotta say that temerian swarm deck gives HUGE tempo. I've been playing it and easily kept up with even reveal r1 tempo. And after that you've got plenty more tempo to play with on your last round with another big swing. Temerian swarm doesn't need your opponent to play cards to get value too. Blue stripes may not feel like much tempo at first, but when you combine them with things like Natalis into blue stripes etc, you're quickly getting big boosts every single turn. Throw a medic in at the end for even better value.

 

[PrincessMassacre]

Tschjo very funny but requires both cards in your hand round 1, and is a removal, thus disqualified. also requires a single high value target. furthermore, that's 32 points, but requires 2 cards to be played, which is 16 per card; not a tempo play.

Bondonkadonk 10-14 point bronzes aren't tempo plays though, despite pulling 2 cards from deck or spawning other low value units. i think the community definition is flawed in that regard, and 'tempo' is not clearly understood; see the definition of tempo in OP: tempo is a play which alters card advantage.

well, thanks for the tips, but i think that sets the record straight: no tempo plays outside of henselt, or those which are predictable, easy to shut down, unreliable, or require horrible 40+ card decks.

let me know when you finally decide to fix NR. the change to reinforcements is part of the problem, as that used to be NR's tempo, which then became henselt... so henselt is basically a former NR silver card... and still OP, lmao...

 

[Tschjo]

Tschjo very funny but requires both cards in your hand round 1, and is a removal, thus disqualified. also requires a single high value target. furthermore, that's 32 points, but requires 2 cards to be played, which is 16 per card; not a tempo play.

Bondonkadonk 10-14 point bronzes aren't tempo plays though, despite pulling 2 cards from deck or spawning other low value units. i think the community definition is flawed in that regard, and 'tempo' is not clearly understood; see the definition of tempo in OP: tempo is a play which alters card advantage.

well, thanks for the tips, but i think that sets the record straight: no tempo plays outside of henselt, or those which are predictable, easy to shut down, unreliable, or require horrible 40+ card decks.

let me know when you finally decide to fix NR. the change to reinforcements is part of the problem, as that used to be NR's tempo, which then became henselt... so henselt is basically a former NR silver card... and still OP, lmao...

Tempo = "making a play that changes the point difference rapidly". This is what tempo is. Not CA not playing multipple cards.
You can play witchers or Lubberkin botchling and you know ADDA who can go Adda + botchling + lubberkin. Hopefully they fix this so you also get your second copy that adda created which is how the cards should work. thats 21-26 tempo.

 

[DRK3]

I havent been a fan of NR for a long time, but i agree that both NR and SK, are down in the faction meta nowadays.

For NR, the best tempo early on is indeed Henselt, specially if from a winch (or whatever those machine RNG special is called), then into those 3 same machines you have on deck.

Hubert is great, but for a finisher, and i guess you need to be really careful no to get cards bricked with such big decks to maximize him.

Adda can provide around 20 pts, but its too random, i usually pick Olgierd whenever i get him.

Gosh, i miss old "Gold Henselt" and Margarita, which would get me 60-80 pts on 1 turn...

 

[Bondonkadonk]

I always thought tempo referred to making very big point plays in one turn, not gaining CA, if I'm wrong in that regard then apologies, but I wouldn't call a spy play tempo; although it's gaining you CA it's giving you negative points. But yeah, by my definition of tempo, while NR may have less than other factions, I still think they're perfectly capable of big point swings. Swarm isn't just 10-14 bronzes. The first 3-4 plays can be a little slower (although again I find they still keep up wth higher tempo decks), but mixing Natalis with tactics can provide a nice swing, medics often play 20+. The infantryman play as a 21 point play, or more if pulled via natalis/stennis, and Dj as end of match play frequently gets me a 30-40 point swing.

Henselt is still the most reliable big point swing, but there are other ways, is what I mean.

 

[4RM3D]

I always thought tempo referred to making very big point plays in one turn, not gaining CA, if I'm wrong in that regard then apologies, but I wouldn't call a spy play tempo; although it's gaining you CA it's giving you negative points.

Gwent lacks mana/lands (or similar) compared to other CCG and, because of that, the meaning of tempo is also a bit warped. For Gwent, you use tempo plays to either force the opponent out of the round or force him to go down one extra card. This means that tempo and CA are intertwined with each other.

 

[Bondonkadonk]

Gwent lacks mana/lands (or similar) compared to other CCG and, because of that, the meaning of tempo is also a bit warped. For Gwent, you use tempo plays to either force the opponent out of the round or force him to go down one extra card. This means that tempo and CA are intertwined with each other.

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for clearing it up! I don't actually play other CCGs so my knowledge of the term was solely from gwent's usage of it.

 

[PrincessMassacre]

No, you're completely correct that 'tempo' is anything which plays more points than the opponent.

If the opponents plays 5s, then 10/11 is 'tempo', as it gives card advantage, which is the intent of tempo.

However, since most bronzes provide at least 12/14 points, tempo should be considered 24/25 points.

Even 16 points can be 'tempo', if you play 2 such cards for 32, while your opponent plays 12x2=24.

I was over-simplifying, and was simply trying to get the point across that NR is currently broken in that dept.

4RM3D The more I think about, the more I realize the problem is Reinforcements. It used to function as tempo for all NR leaders, although was difficult to draw from the deck in the early betas, and was predictable. Moving its function to Henselt may have made it even more reliable/predictable, but broke NR's tempo.

Henselt probably needs his ability changed again... so NR can get their tempo back (otherwise Henselt will have double tempo). He currently swings for 35/39 points with 21 points on the board in 3 cards. 56/60 div 3 = approx 20 points per turn for 3 turns, is a bit much... Winch an Nenneke present issues too, instead of 35/59 in R1, Henselt can pull 60+ in R2/R3...

Although inb4; reinforcements is extremely predictable, even so in the early betas. It's easy to shut down, unlike units which chain other units. ie: Some factions can chain from a leader or gold into a silver into a bronze or an item, for 20+ points, without being easily counterable.

 

[PrincessMassacre]

4RM3D One last thing occurred to me, which is that dun bananas (light cavalry) provide a sort of 'tempo', but require your opponent to play tempo first. If they don't, then it's a bricked card in regards to mulligans. Although, they do allow you to play a free CA spy, so would straight up tempo. They are just inferior to options available to other factions.

Often, NR end up having to rely on neutral gold cards like ciri:nova, grasses, or removals like g:igni, villen, triss: telekinesis, etc... for 'tempo'. They're all superior to native options like baron, vincent, hubert, etc... The most tempo NR can output without henselt is capped at some 20-22 points, and is limited to combos like shani+stennis+random unit, or dijsktra into 2 random cards, or gambling with a 41 card hubert deck, or natalis into winch/recon/reinforcements (2 are random), etc...

Which also begs mentioning, that ever since NR lost their medics and gained nenneke, they've become a much more random faction, as I noted months ago.

Furthermore, most NR bronzes cap out at 14 value, under ideal conditions, which require either complex setups or crewmen pockets. Most other factions have 14 point bronzes by default, which can conditionally reach 18 points in value or more. Do NR even have 'engines'; since knight-elects are so easy to shut down with only 2 damage? ;\

But I suppose I should re-iterate on one final point, which is that Gwent has become about point spam/tempo, removal spam and CA spies... with the removal of options like quen shield, gold immunities, locks being inferior to removal, etc... it's a much less tactical game now. All that was needed to fix gold immunity was removal of high value gold cards worth 25 points... overkill... :\

Spies are everywhere! Removal is everywhere! Mice are everywhere! What on earth is going on in Gwent?

 

[4RM3D]

dun bananas (light cavalry) provide a sort of 'tempo', but require your opponent to play tempo first. [...] They are just inferior to options available to other factions.

Inferior to use as traditional tempo, maybe. However, they are still quite strong and are probably the 2nd most hated interaction in the game (the 1st being Wardancer). The "Aye, aye, sirs" can be reused with Nenneke in the final round as alternative, which, combined with Villenmething, provides quite a swing.

Anyhow, I never argued about NR lacking tempo plays. I only joined this thread to answer a question about tempo in general.

 

[PrincessMassacre]

4RM3D Yea, it's inferior to traditional tempo, and you can play around them, but not around traditional tempo. Anyways, it's much more than a lack of tempo at this point, as I noted above. NR is:

- too random: stennis, dijkstra, recon, winch
- large counterable bodies: nova, hubert, baron, vincent
- relies on neutrals: nova, villen, gigni, scorch; lacks native NR cards of value
- no tempo or random tempo: cavalry, natalis, shani, stennis, dijsktra, telekinesis
- no engines: knight-elect, revenant, siege support, reinforced treb? easy to remove and cannot be revived, best shani target is stennis or a silver.
- no carryover/revival: shani, renew, blue dream, medics used to revive now only buff soldiers
- henselt: relies on henselt for easy 35-39 or 40-60 point tempo swings, but can also be countered.

That probably doesn't completely describe the problem, but it's the fastest summary I could come up with.

There are 3 decks in Gwent: Point spam > removal spam > engine spam > point spam.