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Nvidia’s GameWorks: A double-edged sword for Witcher 3

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Engagerade

Engagerade

Rookie
#141
Nov 13, 2014
Pax_Augusta said:
TXAA is amazing. It significantly reduces performance cost with the same results as SMAA or MSAA. PhysX can admittedly hog performance, but did you see it in action with Batman Arkham: Asylum, City, and Origins? Absolutely stunning. Carpets would tear as expected. Money would flutter as expected. Batman's cape would move and perform as expected. Even leaving trails of footprints in snow would be rendered and stand there based on your path through it. PhysX makes the experience that much more immersive. Hairworks will be amazing as hair will actually move realistically rather than being a frozen mesh that has clipping issues. Long story short, I wouldn't want to live without Nvidia features. They are just too awesome.
Click to expand...
TXAA blurs the fuck out of everything but i suppose its a matter of preference.
Regarding Physx.I consider it a gimmick i agree tho in games such as the Arkham Series and Mafia 2 it looks nice albeit overdone.
Cant comment on Hairworks as i need to see it ingame first.

Now i have an an Nvidia Card and have been using them since i started PC gaming (i also had a 7970 for a period) and find them a lot stabler and comfortable to use but i dont like Nvidia as they have a habit of just slapping AMD users right in their face telling them "haha fuck you your card is shit get Nvidia fucking casual"
 
B

BethesdaWare

Rookie
#142
Nov 13, 2014
Engagerade said:
TXAA blurs the fuck out of everything but i suppose its a matter of preference.
Regarding Physx.I consider it a gimmick i agree tho in games such as the Arkham Series and Mafia 2 it looks nice albeit overdone.
Cant comment on Hairworks as i need to see it ingame first.

Now i have an an Nvidia Card and have been using them since i started PC gaming (i also had a 7970 for a period) and find them a lot stabler and comfortable to use but i dont like Nvidia as they have a habit of just slapping AMD users right in their face telling them "haha fuck you your card is shit get Nvidia fucking casual"
Click to expand...
When has Nvidia ever slapped AMD users in the face? For offering more features and providing better PC gaming support? That just shows Nvidia's passion and vision to take PC gaming to the next level. I've never seen that same level of commitment from AMD. With the exception of games on Frostbite 3, it seems, AMD doesn't really seem to do anything in comparison to Nvidia. They just aren't competitive.
 
sidspyker

sidspyker

Ex-moderator
#143
Nov 13, 2014
Engagerade said:
TXAA blurs the fuck out of everything but i suppose its a matter of preference.
Click to expand...
Preference really, I don't mind the soft look(if anything I prefer it) but the temporal aliasing eats my mind, it's just really not very good to look at textures flickering, random 'yellow' empty spaces being visible on textures and flickering - most commonly windows. It looks like the whole screen is crawling and then I turn on TXAA and suddenly the image is stable, it's no longer crawling.
 
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Engagerade

Engagerade

Rookie
#144
Nov 13, 2014
Pax_Augusta said:
When has Nvidia ever slapped AMD users in the face? For offering more features and providing better PC gaming support? That just shows Nvidia's passion and vision to take PC gaming to the next level. I've never seen that same level of commitment from AMD. With the exception of games on Frostbite 3, it seems, AMD doesn't really seem to do anything in comparison to Nvidia. They just aren't competitive.
Click to expand...
http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/93564-how-nvidias-gameworks-program-will-affect-gaming/

As i said Nvidia treats AMD users like shit.
I know why they do this and i will keep buying Nvidia as i prefer their cards but i still know they are twats.

Found this in that thread and i thought it was appropriate
View attachment 7491
 

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Last edited: Nov 13, 2014
B

BethesdaWare

Rookie
#145
Nov 13, 2014
Engagerade said:
http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/93564-how-nvidias-gameworks-program-will-affect-gaming/

As i said Nvidia treats AMD users like shit.
I know why they do this and i will keep buying Nvidia as i prefer their cards but i still know they are twats.

Found this in that thread and i thought it was appropriate
View attachment 7491
Click to expand...
First, I'd just like to point out that the Arkham games and AC (Ubisoft) have long been partners with Nvidia, so it comes as no surprise those particular games have better performance with an Nvidia GPU.

So because Nvidia builds its own software to make games better that are optimized for Nvidia but not for AMD, they are the bad guys? I might be more sympathetic if AMD had ever been competitive with their GPUs, but they haven't. Their driver support has always been terrible and Nvidia has always been better for many years. The fact that Nvidia invests more into games, works with developers early, and improves the experience for PC gamers is only a testament to their vision. AMD only has themselves to blame for being in any disadvantage. They want to start being competitive? They need to invest more money into their hardware, build better relations with the game industry, and show what they have to offer. What equivalent does AMD have to GameWorks and all the other various additions that Nvidia provides?

Seems to me AMD is just playing the victim card now when they've never been competitive and that was purely their own doing. AMD users chose to buy cheaper cards without considering the repercussions. I don't pity them. I used to own an AMD/ATI GPU and realized how terrible it was long ago. This isn't a recent issue or revelation. They've always had bad support for games. Crossfire never worked and gave less performance. Driver support has always been bad and many AAA games would not work well. AMD just has a long history of disappointments and untapped potential. They aren't even in the same league as Nvidia.
 
Last edited: Nov 14, 2014
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J

jediknight16

Senior user
#146
Nov 14, 2014
You can't say AMD never been competitive, a lot of amd cards have better results for less money, Nvidia master the high-end market since a few years but not always been the case. It might be since 8-10 years that nvidia performs always better, but amd has always stayed fair and with a better vision of gaming. Nvidia is more powerful, got more money, and bought every techs or companies that developped things better than them. They stole ingeneers from amd and other companies, and stole ideas too, concepts. The war between the two is not new, and the games otpimizations depending on whose company they made deals with neither.
Even if the witcher 3 will use nvidia properties techs, doesn't mean the game won't run good without nvidia gpu. They need to improve the game the best they can for consoles too, and PS4 and Xboxone both have AMD gpus, because Nvidia asked too much money to develop for microsoft and sony. There are a few great videogames which run better with amd cards than they do with nvidia, latest tomb raider, total war rome 2, and a lot of others I don't know all titles.
If Amd had the half of Nvidia investors and money, they would surely take back the lead. If Nvidia didn't bought PhysX orginal company, things would be totally different today. They bought 3dfx ten years ago too, and that's the only reason why they stand for leader on gpu market now : they had more money to buy others and destroy competitivity. Plus, when you see how badly a lot of Nvidia Gameworks Program games run, you wonder why they advertise so much about a thing that is totally screwed and full of bugs on a lot of games. Some big titles comes up with new nvidia techs which are supposed to blast our eyes, but don't always keep their promises.
Anyway, I hope it won't ruin the Witcher 3 and will work great on both amd and nvidia cards.
 
F

facemeltingsolo

Rookie
#147
Nov 14, 2014
Mod accused AMD of FUD in this thread?

No this is what FUD looks like. Ubisoft claiming that AMD is working with them to optimize the game and blaming AMD hardware on a Games Work game.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/11/12/ubisoft-comments-on-assassins-creed-unity-pc-troubles

The last Batman game saw the same impossible swing in performance between Nvidia and AMD, and it is even WORSE now because the consoles are AMD hardware, which makes it more of a joke.

Real journalists exposed this a long time ago, before the last two Ubisoft games works games. This is NOT just Ubisoft, and AMD has no way of accessing anything from Ubisoft because those games libraries are CLOSED. Optimization is guess work and literally impossible. Ubisoft is selling a bold faced lie as is Nvidia.
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/173511-nvidias-gameworks-program-usurps-power-from-developers-end-users-and-amd

A 750ti is 1 FPS difference on lows as a R9 280 in AC Unity. A R9 280 is literally 3 x the GPU in a Xbox One. Once again an R9 290 gets GTX 770 performance which is flat out impossible.

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Assassins-Creed-Unity-PC-258436/Specials/Test-Technik-Benchmarks-1142550/

Pre Order of Witcher 3 cancelled. I am not paying for a title that accepts bribes from a company to ruin their competitors performance. These developers and Nvidia are stealing money out of my pocket as far as what I paid for a GPU. In addition all these games are horribly optimized and as Extremetech showed they will render things for no visual payoff to increase hardware needed and cripple AMD. This is about bribes, Nvidia trying to sell unneeded SLI setups at 1080p/1440p and I refuse to support any company using this crap.

Have a nice day CDPR. I thought you were different. Anyone with an AMD GPU supporting Games Works games at this point is a masochist. Also you are supporting a closed platform on an open platform (PC). AMD can retaliate and this is the worst thing I have ever seen happen in PC GAming. Thanks Nvidia for being a huge scumbag company and not only screwing over your own customers, but the competition as well in what should be a unfair practices lawsuit.
 
Last edited: Nov 14, 2014
L

lexaran

Rookie
#148
Nov 14, 2014
What if those games doesn't perform well because of poor attention to drives AMD provides? What if Nvidia invests more in drives/software creation/optimization than AMD? What if Nvidia can't buy all the developers in the world just to boycott AMD? See, they came up with some really nice things for us gamers, TXAA, MFAA, DSR, VR Direct, PCSS, VXGI... ect. One just can't deny they are investing in games, bringing new stuff to make our games look better. They care for gaming.

The difference in performance will be so small, that even if I was an AMD user I would rather have gameworks, because it just looks good.

I saw some people saying tressfx looks better. I played Tomb Raider, it may look better static, but in movement it looks unnatural, like the hair in ACU.

Yesterday I played ACU, and after a few hours playing it I went and watched the 35min gameplay video from Witcher 3, man... It already looks way better than ACU (they lie in their videos, game looks worse than merchandising, I played all ultra), and it's been said that the build in the video is outdated.
 
Last edited: Nov 14, 2014
M

Merc616

Senior user
#149
Nov 14, 2014
When CD Projekt RED decided to partner with Nvidia again, for the next Witcher game, I don't think they could have foreseen the issues with AMD and GameWorks. It's not like they can back out now, they have an agreement and there's too much work done. But the least they can do is work closely with AMD and not ignore their suggestions and optimize what they can.

I think it's best to keep your cool and avoid all the fanboyism and drama and just wait for more information before you make any brash decisions. And as I mentioned before, the Far Cry 4 benchmark should be very interesting so keep an eye open for that next week.
 
sidspyker

sidspyker

Ex-moderator
#150
Nov 14, 2014
Well for one if you're so worried about the performance then better to wait for performance benchmarks before buying.

That said I don't understand the concern, if you have not Enabled the GameWorks effects then they cannot affect your performance. How the hell with HBAO+ or HairWorks for example, affect your performance if you've not enabled it? This is the literal definition of FUD.
 
M

Merc616

Senior user
#151
Nov 14, 2014
Lords of the Fallen uses Nvidia GameWorks. Look at the benchmark results:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/8714/benchmarked-lords-of-the-fallen

The GTX 770 is hanging with the R9 290X...That just isn't right.
 
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Z

Zabanzo

Senior user
#152
Nov 14, 2014
Merc616 said:
Lords of the Fallen uses Nvidia GameWorks. Look at the benchmark results:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/8714/benchmarked-lords-of-the-fallen

The GTX 770 is hanging with the R9 290X...That just isn't right.
Click to expand...
These benchmarks you keep linking mean nothing right now... All we can do is to wait for official requirements from CDPR and then we can start this discussion...
 
M

Merc616

Senior user
#153
Nov 14, 2014
Riordan1 said:
These benchmarks you keep linking mean nothing right now... All we can do is to wait for official requirements from CDPR and then we can start this discussion...
Click to expand...
The benchmarks posted show a pattern of abnormal performance discrepancies with games that use Nvidia's GameWorks. The results are not limited to Ubisoft titles either so the problem can't simply be dismissed as "Ubisoft are bad programmers". Unless AMD can figure some things out by launch it wouldn't be a stretch to expect similar results. But we shall see...
 
V

Vigilance.492

Ex-moderator
#154
Nov 14, 2014
Merc616 said:
But we shall see...
Click to expand...
Indeed we shall, and I think trying to hold a riot over something that hasn't even been confirmed as a problem is a little pointless.

Yes, if AMD setups have big issues with the game and the problem is evidently due to Gameworks, then go to town, have a riot pitchforks and all. CDPR should be held accountable for a bad decision no matter how big or small, and if Gameworks proves to be one, then they should be made evident of that with the hope they can make a better choice in the future (CP2077).

However as of yet everyone just has to wait and see, wait for the benchmarks and post-release data. If anyone is worried about Gameworks, simply hold off on that day 1 purchase, it's not like the game is going to go anywhere.
 
sidspyker

sidspyker

Ex-moderator
#155
Nov 14, 2014
Merc616 said:
Lords of the Fallen uses Nvidia GameWorks.
Click to expand...
How is that related? When you turn off GameWorks effects does the game still have similar performance? Then it's the game's problem not GameWorks.

They are OPTIONAL features that you can choose to have, they aren't always on.
 
B

BethesdaWare

Rookie
#156
Nov 14, 2014
sidspyker said:
How is that related? When you turn off GameWorks effects does the game still have similar performance? Then it's the game's problem not GameWorks.

They are OPTIONAL features that you can choose to have, they aren't always on.
Click to expand...
Right on point. GamesWork is nothing more than fluff or icing on a cake. Not having this if you have an AMD card is not game breaking. You just merely won't reap the same benefits an Nvidia player will from a graphical fidelity standpoint. It really isn't that big of a deal.
 
JackalJ

JackalJ

Senior user
#157
Nov 14, 2014
Shouldn't we first see some Specs and benchmarks before we bring out the torches?

Yeah sure lately games have been very poorly optimized and it's time some developers show what a pc is capable of. Lets hope that developer is CDPR, no matter gpu brand.

And CDPR is a business, and if your business got a better offer from nvidia then AMD everybody would pick nvidia. Even if the offer is: to use their tech and get their help implemeting it, cheaper licensing or something rediculous like them getting money from nvidia. It doesnt matter if you get a better deal with one party, you go with them. Now that being said, as a multiplatform developer CDPR is kind of required to optimize the game for all platforms. (Consoles, AMD and nvidia)
 
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M

Merc616

Senior user
#158
Nov 15, 2014
sidspyker said:
How is that related? When you turn off GameWorks effects does the game still have similar performance? Then it's the game's problem not GameWorks.

They are OPTIONAL features that you can choose to have, they aren't always on.
Click to expand...
AMD's position has already been well explained and the evidence is backing up their claim. If AMD can't deliver a competitive product to Nvidia's counterparts this will have a negative effect on the market and consumers. Turning off effects doesn't solve that problem.

jackalj said:
Shouldn't we first see some Specs and benchmarks before we bring out the torches?

Yeah sure lately games have been very poorly optimized and it's time some developers show what a pc is capable of. Lets hope that developer is CDPR, no matter gpu brand.

And CDPR is a business, and if your business got a better offer from nvidia then AMD everybody would pick nvidia. Even if the offer is: to use their tech and get their help implemeting it, cheaper licensing or something rediculous like them getting money from nvidia. It doesnt matter if you get a better deal with one party, you go with them. Now that being said, as a multiplatform developer CDPR is kind of required to optimize the game for all platforms. (Consoles, AMD and nvidia)
Click to expand...
In a couple of posts back I suggested not to blame CD Projekt RED for Nvidia GameWorks. They had no way of knowing it would adversely affect AMD this way.
 
sidspyker

sidspyker

Ex-moderator
#159
Nov 15, 2014
Merc616 said:
AMD's position has already been well explained and the evidence is backing up their claim.
Click to expand...
Where? All AMD has said is that Nvidia does not allow them to optimize for GameWorks libraries which is well within their right, this has nothing to do any games themselves.

That is a different claim to what you're claiming. You're claiming GameWorks somehow cripples the performance of the game only on AMD hardware even when not enabled.
 
Last edited: Nov 15, 2014
S

soldiergeralt

Forum veteran
#160
Nov 15, 2014
every company has to pick the most profitable partnership. cpdr chose nvidia because they offer a better deal than amd ever could.

i think if you like a game or company, you'll make the appropriate adjustments software/hardware wise. it's kind of like those mac and linux people who refuse to install windows. good on them for their principled stance, but then deal with the consequences of some programs/hardware not running on their chosen platform. simple as that.

complaining on froums not going to change anything, because potential loss of one customer obviosuly does not supercede severity of broken contracts with nvidia or loss of profit from wasting money on platform support that only 1 percent of target audience use. sooner you realize how real world works, sooner you make correct decision in purchasing software/hardware imho.
 
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