On Hype...

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It's a sad state of affairs when the new normal becomes misrepresentation, window dressing and, in some cases, deliberate deception. It's a sadder state of affairs when perception changes to accept that as a proper way to depict products and conveniently shift all blame away from product makers.

In fairness, its increasingly becoming the new normal. It's difficult to buy anything anymore without playing dodgeball in a room full of smoke and mirrors. Product makers, reviewers, "influencers", journalists (if there is a such thing anymore)... Finding a "reliable" source is a real chore. It's a good bet anyone teaching ethics will never run out of material to cover.
The last "honest" company I know of was Innocent Drinks, and they were bought out by Coca cola.......
 

ya1

Forum regular
A generalistic burger comercial will have what we have become used to. It comes down to taste and nutrient levels.

Even burger commercials cannot misrepresent the palpable qualities of the product such as - in burgers' case - nutrients or vitamins. And then slap a "work in progress" label to avoid making it blatantly illegal. And this is what happened with CP77 marketing, especially the E3 demo. Not only suggestions of features that can be excused with vagueness (promoting destructible environment on the example of the Dorsett quest or complex quest structure on the example of the Mealstrom quest, describing cars as potentially "good for police chases," shots of different locations when V's accommodation was being talked about, etc.). These were just dishonest. There are different extents of dishonesty but most advertising is dishonest. But there also was direct misrepresentation of the features of the product, which - if not for the "work in progress" disclaimer - would have been a textbook example of false advertising.

You can argue forever, redirect the issue to

the psychology inherent in the existing consumer base

and everything. But to me it is as simple as this. There is the truth. And there is that other thing. CP77 marketing was full of that other thing.
 
Even burger commercials cannot misrepresent the palpable qualities of the product such as - in burgers' case - nutrients or vitamins. And then slap a "work in progress" label to avoid making it blatantly illegal.
I'd love to know where you eat/buy your burgers, because for me, they never seems to be the same as the pictures (even tasty and nice).
Me who thought that the small * and the related note in very (very) small at the bottom "this is an image of advertisement" were there to make pretty :(

But could be the same for cars, "only consumes 4Litres/100km" with a small * and the note :
Average consumption established on a closed road and out of traffic on a test vehicle...

Or for care products "95% efficiency" with the small * and the note :
The tests are carried out in the laboratory on 20 people...

Two antoher little French examples (because I don't know about other country)
Green ernegie (which normally respects the environment) sold in France which is effectively CO2-free, but which in reality is more than 70% produced by nuclear power...
Deodorants without aluminum salts (being supposedly harmful) are going to be much healthier, but made up of alum stone, which is actually aluminum...
Ah these advertisers, they would do anything to sell us something we don't need or even don't want :(

But hey, this is only my opinion and there CDPR was offering to refund, so those who weren't happy after trying it could go back. What more could you ask for honestly... :(
 
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I'd love to know where you eat/buy your burgers, because for me, they never seems to be the same as the pictures (even tasty and nice).
Me who thought that the small * and the related note in very (very) small at the bottom "this is an image of advertisement" were there to make pretty :(

But could be the same for cars, "only consumes 4Litres/100km" with a small * and the note :
Average consumption established on a closed road and out of traffic on a test vehicle...

Or for care products "95% efficiency" with the small * and the note :
The tests are carried out in the laboratory on 20 people...

But hey, this is only my opinion and there CDPR was offering to refund, so those who weren't happy after trying it could go back. What more could you ask for honestly... :(
Plastered over that video from e3 2018 it said, "Work in Progress, Does not represent the final look of the game"
 
I'd love to know where you eat/buy your burgers, because for me, they never seems to be the same as the pictures (even tasty and nice).
Me who thought that the small * and the related note in very (very) small at the bottom "this is an image of advertisement" were there to make pretty :(

But could be the same for cars, "only consumes 4Litres/100km" with a small * and the note :
Average consumption established on a closed road and out of traffic on a test vehicle...

Or for care products "95% efficiency" with the small * and the note :
The tests are carried out in the laboratory on 20 people...

But hey, this is only my opinion and there CDPR was offering to refund, so those who weren't happy after trying it could go back. What more could you ask for honestly... :(
It's not to nag or complain, or say we are dissatisfied, it's related to the hype around the game and how it's formed.
I'm sorry for mentioning the burger example, I did so more to say those aren't comparable examples as the product, their use, their medium is completely different. The metaphors will always be incomplete.
 
The false advertizing of CDPR to me, was that. Several Night city wires that focused mostly on the open world elements (the gangs, the fashion, the branching story and exploration, the "living in Night City") when the game's focus was something else entirely.
This isn't hyperbolizing everything into Immersive, Spectacular,... it's a strategy of missrepresenting their vision for what they chose to be their statement for sales. It doesn't respect the fans of the type of game they created nor the fans of the types of games they advertized for.
But all the stuff they advertised in those Night City Wires was there. Almost the entire mission from the 2018 Demo (which some people later pointed to as being false advertising) can still be played in the game right now. The second demo with the Voodoo Boys and Animals ... still there. They literally showed us more than an hour of gameplay that is almost all still in the game. And in my opinion those quests they showed aren't the best quests in the game. So it's not like they cherry-picked the best parts or something. How can that be false advertising? Sure, a few things are different (namely - netrunning was visually differently than first shown in 2018 (though it was accurately represented in 2019), there was no wall running, personalized advertisements were gone, no vehicle customization (which was never shown but mentioned in interviews a couple times), and etc) but none of those things were monumental to the overall design.

RE misrepresenting the vision: they also said several times that story comes first. Of course it was going to be narrative first, sandbox second. Every CDPR game has been that way.
 
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ya1

Forum regular
I'd love to know where you eat/buy your burgers, because for me, they never seems to be the same as the pictures (even tasty and nice).
Me who thought that the small * and the related note in very (very) small at the bottom "this is an image of advertisement" were there to make pretty :(

I said palpable qualities. Aesthetic values are not palpable. They can put out a pretty picture, even inaccurately so if they add the "just ad" label. But if they say a burger has truffles and avocado when it doesn't, it's false advertising. And this is what CDPR did. They said CP77 was to have this and that and the other, and it didn't have any of those things. The "work in progress" or "subject to changes" label is the only thing that saves them from the legal charge of false advertising.

Green ernegie (which normally respects the environment) sold in France which is effectively CO2-free, but which in reality is more than 70% produced by nuclear power...
Deodorants without aluminum salts (being supposedly harmful) are going to be much healthier, but made up of alum stone, which is actually aluminum...

I would not go that far as to compare CDPR to companies that pollute the world or manufacture hazardous products. But I appreciate the sentiment to support my argument. Thanks.
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So it's not like they cherry-picked the best parts or something.
Not only did they cherry-pick the best parts for the demo but they purposefully dumped them all to prologue to artificially boost early reviews and early sales. No other mission is even close the complexity of the Mealstrom mission, despite the demo saying, "...and this is just one mission (like that)."
 
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Not only did they cherry-pick the best parts for the demo but they purposefully dumped them all to prologue to artificially boost early reviews and early sales.
What? Those quests are not the best quests in the game at all. They put the 2018 demo in prologue because (1) it takes place in Watson which was the part of the world that was most complete at that time and (2) it avoided post-heist mission story spoilers. The 2019 demo is not in the prologue. It's in Act 2.
 
That's advertisement, not hype. Customers create hype. Media creates hype. Gossip creates hype. (And that's regardless of whether the hype is good or bad.) A studio says, "We've got an exciting new game -- coming soon!" A studio will always try to sell its salient features: "We've created environments with a level of detail never before seen! / Revolutionary new combat system! / Innovative control scheme! / Etc.!"

That's how advertising works.
  • That's why, in commercials, luxury cars are shown arriving at black-tie galas instead of being parked in people's driveways or caught in traffic -- which is where you're going to see a "LX" model or be sitting in one in real life.
  • That's why perfume commercials are full of steamy, sexy bodies engaged in some form of romantic encounter. That's not what happens because someone puts perfume on. Your grandma wears that perfume, remember.
  • That's why the burger in the commercial is perfectly constructed in a warmly lit room, served to the table by a smiling waiter wearing a spotless uniform. In real life, the burger is held together with toothpicks with cheese is running out the sides, and it's delivered to the table by the bus boy because the restaurant is busy.
There's nothing wrong with taking publicity shots or trying to highlight the qualities of my product. No, people that buy LX models of cars are not suddenly immune to traffic or automatically invited to high-class events. No, you don't suddenly become a sultry super-model because you wear a particular type of perfume. No, the burger is not guaranteed to be arranged on the plate the same way it was for the scripted television commercial, and no, not every restaurant in the franchise has the same uniform code.

It's theatre. It's meant to be fun, set the tone and mood, and drum up interest. No one is selling snake oil. Are we going to take issue with department store manikins misrepresenting how clothing looks because it's pinned in place?

Hype is the responsibility of the consumer. I don't recommend people engage in it. It's not a very informed way of analyzing. For anything.

Also, I'm not sure where you're getting $200 million. Where did that figure come from? If true, I'd agree that's pretty insane, and I would argue that it's time for the marketing department to start working smarter instead of harder. But here's a figure that is official. 13.7 million copies sold. That's going to be roughly $800 million and change in revenue to work with...so even $200 mil wouldn't break the bank. But I'd be extremely surprised to see that CDPR spent that much on advertising.
Define "hype" however you wish. I think of it as misleading advertisement, which CDPR's marketing team certainly did a lot of with CP2077.

I will note that as far as I know, the engineers never engaged in any of that. It's completely on the marketing team.
 

ya1

Forum regular
What? Those quests are not the best quests in the game at all. They put the 2018 demo in prologue because (1) it takes place in Watson which was the part of the world that was most complete at that time and (2) it avoided post-heist mission story spoilers. The 2019 demo is not in the prologue. It's in Act 2.

The Meastrom quest is the only quest in the game that is up to the standards set by W3 - the standards of quest complexity, branching, alternative outcomes and different consequences for the rest of the game. Nothing in the game is even remotely close. The game truly feels awesome once you finish this quest faced with so many decisions and see they actually matter. It feels 10/10. Sadly, this is the only time the game feels that way. Which some reviewers apparently did not know when they gave their rather misguided 8-9/10 ratings.

If the Meastrom quest is not the best in the game in the criteria I listed above, then which one is?
 
Plastered over that video from e3 2018 it said, "Work in Progress, Does not represent the final look of the game"

Oh my... how many times are people going to regurgitate that same old e3 2018 private press demo that was never meant for public viewing, but became so because of the press generating so much hype that hundreds of thousands of people were begging CDPR for months to release it to the public against their better judgement and when they've done so the hype went through the roof ever since...

This flipping Mandela effect is grinding my knockers every time.

It's like there's reality and then there's the other thing which is happening with the CDPR criticism.

The only fair part is the CGI trailer which was uncalled for and the fact that they only presented the second gen Xbox One and PS4 gameplay and not the first gen which was a disaster.

Everything else presented in any of the trailers and gameplay footages is present in the game ad verbatim surrounded by embellished phrases like any other advertisement campaign.

The fact of the matter is that the marketing generated interest, which is good, but it also attracted an audience expecting something else that was not used to CDPR's way of doing things.

I really don't get why people expected an open sandbox RPG akin to the Bethesda model with GTA gameplay, I do not recall any of that during any of the presentations, instead of a tight narratively driven action RPG akin to Mass Effect, The Witcher, Deus Ex or Vamps The Masquerade.

It's a two way street, hype and marketing, as SigilFey puts it, marketing generates hype but it's not the sole factor in that equation and hype is the byproduct of marketing (it's how it works, and has always worked).

It's everyone's responsibility to stay aware and informed before purchasing something, and it's also the marketing's responsibility to represent a product accurately while generating interest and excitement, both of these failed in my opinion because the media was allowed to run with it without being contested by CDPR when extravagant headlines popped up.

This in turn has created a monster that garnered the attention of many groups of people that were unfamiliar with the company and their MO, buggy at release fix it later, which in turn devolved the excitement into pure disappointment and anger directly proportional with the pre-orders and sales numbers (which is why looking back at it people say The Witcher 3 wasn't as bad at release, no, it was, just wasn't as popular so the eyes of the mainstream wasn't on it and it wasn't under a microscope for such an extended period of time).

The rapid expansion of CDPR and the fact that their development teams were segregated during the final push (in the last 10% goes 90% of the work - it's how software development functions) spelt disaster for the final product.

Couple that with the extravagant marketing missing an important factor out of the equation - the performance on the first gen modern consoles -and a locked-down, frenzied fanbase, yeah... we all know how that went down... sorry, I meant still going down...

Either way, I'm sure CDPR will be fine and an Enhanced Edition - perhaps coupled with the current gen re-release - will be available later this year or early 2022 and stuff will be back to normal, people will become oblivious again and the world keeps spinning...

Toodeloo...
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I said palpable qualities. Aesthetic values are not palpable. They can put out a pretty picture, even inaccurately so if they add the "just ad" label. But if they say a burger has truffles and avocado when it doesn't, it's false advertising. And this is what CDPR did. They said CP77 was to have this and that and the other, and it didn't have any of those things. The "work in progress" or "subject to changes" label is the only thing that saves them from the legal charge of false advertising.

This is so far away from the truth it's ridiculous...

CDPR would have been sued for false advertisement if this had any pull, and since they haven't we can safely assume that this is not the case.

Headlines on the internet doesn't mean that ''CDPR claimed'' anything, how about reading the content of the article and expanding the links in the said article to see where they lead, most of the time it was towards a half assed mistranslated developer quote found on reddit with reddit as a source.

Yeah...
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Not only did they cherry-pick the best parts for the demo but they purposefully dumped them all to prologue to artificially boost early reviews and early sales. No other mission is even close the complexity of the Mealstrom mission, despite the demo saying, "...and this is just one mission (like that)."

Except they did not since I can clearly remember the Voodoo Boys mission being presented as well.

The prologue mission is a microcosm example of the rest of the game, it works well to set up the entire rest of the game with multiple choices allowing access to different ending scenarios based on your actions - or inactions.

I believe that that's the purpose of the prologue.

And from my interpretation it does not misrepresent what's available in the game.
 
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The Voodoo Boy mission presented during E3 and gamescom 2019 and later during some preview events in cinemas contained a lot of things that were later cut from the game. Like the fact that you could hack the gym equipment or the more elaborate quickhacks, and I remember the enemy netrunner being far more present during that demo. And that's just one example.

It's PR's job to get media and therefore potential players interested in the game. It's also PR's job to make sure the information you present is accurate enough and not misleading so players won't feel duped after playing the final product, because that leads to bad PR.
It's not about being "technically right - all the stuff presented during the Night City Wires was in the game to some extend, just not to the extend it was promised etc". It's about the big picture you create with all your trailers, press releases, interviews and gameplay demos. And if it turns out that this big picture was misleading, sales numbers drop shortly ater release, the game is taken off the freaking PS store, ther are lawsuits and your reputation has gone from "most beloved studio in the last 10 years" to "unreliable frauds", then PR obviously didn't do a good job. long-term.

As to why, either they didn't know the true extend of the discrepancy between what they told press and what the game was really like - which is not unlikely, given the fact that CDPR management and internal communication has seemed pretty shambolic months before release - or they were aware of it and just rolled with it, consequences be damned. Both options suck. In the end, it's all the upper management's fault, I don't think any sane experienced PR person would willingly propose creating this kind of PR campaign where you can already see it crashing down as soon as people get their hands on the final product.
 
The Voodoo Boy mission presented during E3 and gamescom 2019 and later during some preview events in cinemas contained a lot of things that were later cut from the game. Like the fact that you could hack the gym equipment or the more elaborate quickhacks, and I remember the enemy netrunner being far more present during that demo. And that's just one example.

Nope, they're all present in the game, if you stealth through the mission and manage to find your way in the boxing training area and observe the NPC's pathing, one of them ends up weight lifting and you can hack the equipment.

I didn't have the right daemon for the Bot to see if that's available as well.

I could hack it but I didn't have any effective hacks for it, I'm just assuming that there's some available.

Watch the demo and try and replicate it, what's been removed is the monowire hacking which to me seems redundant in the current context.

The quick hacks were made available through techies and perks rather than finding them from access points, they're still available but through different means.

I do agree with the rest of the post, except with the ''they promised'' part, I'd love to see where they ever promised anything.
 

ya1

Forum regular
(The Mealstrom mission) does not misrepresent what's available in the game.

Then answer my question that you omitted in your quote: which other mission gets close to it when it comes to quest design, branching, decisions resulting in alternative outcomes relevant to gameplay (like different enemies and bosses) and the rest of the game (like an optional character to romance)?

This is so far away from the truth it's ridiculous...
CDPR would have been sued for false advertisement if this had any pull, and since they haven't we can safely assume that this is not the case.

Sorry, I don't follow... You are saying CDPR would have been sued if what I said was true, yes? On the legality of it all, all I said was that they can't be sued. So... you are saying... they would have been sued if couldn't be sued? That's so zen...

Everything else presented in any of the trailers and gameplay footages is present in the game

Such as the wanted system to be influenced by corrupt police and dependent on where the crime was committed? Or the day and night NPC routines fueled by revolutionary AI and resulting in the most believable city up to date? Or the weather impacting gameplay? Or the car chases? Or the apartments? Or dozens of other things?

Hard not to mention the already meme status of "RELEASED: WHEN READY" or "RUNS SURPRISINGLY WELL ON OLD-GEN CONSOLES." These are already remembered as some of the most blatant... misrepresentations of the truth... in the history of video games.
 
Then answer my question that you omitted in your quote: which other mission gets close to it when it comes to quest design, branching, decisions resulting in alternative outcomes relevant to gameplay (like different enemies and bosses) and the rest of the game (like an optional character to romance)?



Sorry, I don't follow... You are saying CDPR would have been sued if what I said was true, yes? On the legality of it all, all I said was that they can't be sued. So... you are saying... they would have been sued if couldn't be sued? That's so zen...



Such as the wanted system to be influenced by corrupt police and dependent on where the crime was committed? Or the day and night NPC routines fueled by revolutionary AI and resulting in the most believable city up to date? Or the weather impacting gameplay? Or the car chases? Or the apartments? Or dozens of other things?

Hard not to mention the already meme status of "RELEASED: WHEN READY" or "RUNS SURPRISINGLY WELL ON OLD-GEN CONSOLES." These are already remembered as some of the most blatant... misrepresentations of the truth... in the history of video games.
At that time the unsolvable problem was already on the table ..... there was nothing else that could be done and the developers knew what was coming ... they were not listened to ... But hey, I think these conversations they have already been discussed many times in the forum ... they lead us nowhere. Now let's look at what CDPR's next job in Cyberpunk is and if it's worth it.
 
Then answer my question that you omitted in your quote: which other mission gets close to it when it comes to quest design, branching, decisions resulting in alternative outcomes relevant to gameplay (like different enemies and bosses) and the rest of the game (like an optional character to romance)?

The Prologue has The Heist as the main quest line, which is compiled together by smaller quests that have several objectives which can ultimately help or hinder the final outcome of the quest.

The Main Narrative Arc has The Relic as the main quest line, which is compiled together by smaller quests that have several objectives which can ultimately help or hinder the final outcome of the quest.

The Side Quests work on the same principle and also have a fail state, some of the gigs connect with each other to form a chain of events that can influence side quests as well.

Yeah I think The Prologue is a fair representation of the rest of the game.

Sorry, I don't follow... You are saying CDPR would have been sued if what I said was true, yes? On the legality of it all, all I said was that they can't be sued. So... you are saying... they would have been sued if couldn't be sued? That's so zen...

I was saying that if that allegation held any grounds it would have been followed up in court regardless of the disclaimer (for example the nicotine debacle), words don't change their meaning based on one's feelings.

You cannot claim false advertisement willy-nilly for shock value and be surprised when you get called out on the legal basis of that claim which is indeed a legal allegation that is unsubstantiated.

Such as the wanted system to be influenced by corrupt police and dependent on where the crime was committed? Or the day and night NPC routines fueled by revolutionary AI and resulting in the most believable city up to date? Or the weather impacting gameplay? Or the car chases? Or the apartments? Or dozens of other things?

Can you post anything that doesn't have reddit as a source regarding any of this?

As for the corrupt law enforcement system is an out of context headline that was referring the quest designer's explanation about the lore not the functionality of it in the game.

In fact, I dare you to find anything of any value that references any of that coming from CDPR themselves.

Like I mentioned before the E3 2018 gameplay was a vertical slice mid development that was not meant for public viewing, and since it was, indeed made public, it's fair game when it comes to criticism, but let's not forget the context of it.

Several of those other claims are true (there are car chases), and others were confirmed to be false (like the multiple apartments).

The weather was never meant to influence gameplay, literally one developer mentioned acid rain in one interview and the interviewer ran with it creating this massive expectation.

There is acid rain in the game which affects visibility... so take it as you will.

Would have been nice if the NPC's reacted to the weather though :(.
Hard not to mention the already meme status of "RELEASED: WHEN READY" or "RUNS SURPRISINGLY WELL ON OLD-GEN CONSOLES." These are already remembered as some of the most blatant... misrepresentations of the truth... in the history of video games.

Subjective terms, you have the right to be reactive to them, of course, but they're not proof of anything other than marketing and investor speech which is intentionally vague and leaves room for interpretations.

In my eyes the game was not ready, but I personally experienced the same issue when purchasing their older titles at release, every release I have personally experienced from Bethesda, BioWare, Black Isle, Troika, Ubisoft and many others.

So as you can imagine I was unmoved by all of that.

The state of the game on the old consoles is unacceptable and I'm glad they issued refunds, shame on Sony and Microsoft for even allowing the game as it was to be purchasable on their devices in the first place, all three companies share equal blame for the state of the game available to their customers.
 
The Meastrom quest is the only quest in the game that is up to the standards set by W3 - the standards of quest complexity, branching, alternative outcomes and different consequences for the rest of the game.
I think you're overestimating TW3s quest complexity and long reaching consequences. Much like in 2077, most of the choices are dichotomous. Then eventually they result in different slideshows. Don't get me wrong, it's my favorite game ever, but it's not like it's variability is lightyears ahead of 2077.

I do think the pickup probably has the most choice branches as far as options within a quest is concerned. But it's level design is pretty linear, and the story is literally a fetch quest. There are much better quests in the game as far as gameplay, level design and story are concerned. Also, the finale part of the main questline is definitely more complex in that it three completely different quests depending on choices, with numerous variations within those quests.

So the finales based on the one criteria you listed - choices and consequences. A few other quests choices also have choice dependent outcomes such as the Clouds, the Hunt and Epistrophy. On overall quest quality - the Heist, Pisces, Play it Safe, the Glory Ending, the Star Endings, the Johnny Questline, the Hunt, pretty much all of the Panam quests (minus the final tank one) are better overall quests in my estimation.
 
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The state of the game on the old consoles is unacceptable and I'm glad they issued refunds, shame on Sony and Microsoft for even allowing the game as it was to be purchasable on their devices in the first place, all three companies share equal blame for the state of the game available to their customers.
Even though I would have been very (very, very) disapointed if I couldn't play Cyberpunk on December 10th and still have to wait forever while PC gamers were having fun, I have to agree...

On Playstation & Xbox, it's the Sony and Microsoft stores, no ? If yes, we can wonder how it is possible (considering that Cyberpunk was unplayable, which is not my case) to sell a game in this state...
Microsoft and Sony do not test the games before selling them in their own stores ?
If I make an indie game and it doesn't work, will they sell it anyway ?
That sound weird no ?
 
every game has to fulfill certain technical criteria to get certified for Xbox, PS and Nintendo. Obviously, CP passed certification, otherwise we wouldn't have been able to buy it on December 10th. It's none of Sony's or Microsoft's business if the game is a buggy 50/100 or a 90/100 as long as the console doesn't explode and the game fulfills certain inernal guidelines.

I don't have any proof, but I'm pretty sure Sony didn't take the game off the PS store because they suddenly discovered they wanted to play quality control, but because they felt their old fashioned system could not deal with the sudden influx of refund requests and they looked bad because Microsoft didn't make a fuss. So they took it off the store. No game, no refund problems.
 
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