On the lack of Racial Diversty in TW3, or Disruptive Controversies.

[Liquidacid]

Those heels as you called them, are actually modelled after 17th century French Cavalry boots and were worn by men at that time.

Well the French could get away with wearing heels since you don't need to run to surrender

 

[MarkPiasecki]

That said as someone who has done post-graduate work in European history I've got a big problem with the history argument.

Could you please tell where are you from? I'm curious, because in Western Europe history of Eastern Europe is often completely omitted. And I mean schools, univerities, books and so on. Most western books about feudalism in medieval Europe don't even mention any country east of Germany. Which is sad, and, in my opinion, has nothing to do with thorough scientific research. Outside of Europe it's probably even worse, but I might be wrong.

I can elaborate on this topic (which is not the topic of this thread) if you want, but for now I'll leave you with this image:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blackdeath2.gif

Surely people were (to some extent) aware of different races, cultures etc., but I don't know if that's an argument for including those in the game.

 

[warbaby2]

Those heels as you called them, are actually modelled after 17th century French Cavalry boots and were worn by men at that time.

Actually, her whole outfit, including the broad belt/corset and loose fitting blouse, are modeled after 17/18th century fencing gear... sure, it's stylized to look more feminine (not many female fencers around back then, and even if, they still wore dresses ). but it has a clear origin in real world fashion, like most outfits/armors in the game... yes, even the revealing dresses worn by sorceresses.

 

[Frosty1979]

,,,

That said as someone who has done post-graduate work in European history I've got a big problem with the history argument. I hate hearing this argument being made for defending the games. It's weak. It's grounded in only the most shallow and superficial understanding of European history or the culture and society of Medieval Europe.
Medieval Europe was not as closed off from the wider world as some would like to believe. The African Moors ruled most of Spain until late in the middle ages. In the Slavic world they would have certainly been familiar with Tatars, Mongols, and they were certainly using the river system in Russia to navigate to the Mediterranean and trade with the Arabs or the Persians. This idea that people with dark faces would have been unknown to white Europeans of the middle ages is preposterous. Certainly the larger towns and ports would be more cosmopolitan and the educated classes and the elites would have been aware. It's a weak argument so stop making it.
...

You are right that certain circles in medieval times were aware of people of somewhat darker skin colour, but I fail to see how that makes it logically that all these people of different races would have lived together in relatice peace in one and the same country, state, city, etc.?
The examples you give are actually proof for that, that the thought of a diverse ethnic society in those times is quite ridiculous, because those were invading forces, who raided some areas and withdrew immediately again or were expelled again after a long armed conflict. So yeah maybe the "bad" invading southern forces could have made dark skinned by the author, but would people like you really like that?

Lastly, despite the medieval flourishes and touches this world is entirely fantasy so the idea of black people or asiatics walking through it is not as preposterous when set against having to fight griffins and harpies, is it?

So because it's a fantasy world no kind of logic needs to be applied to the described society? Really? Well fine your opinion, but for me personally to become immersed in a fantasy setting, it needs to be build with an inner logic and consistency.
Creating a medieval European fantasy world were Asians, Africans and Europeans live together in the same nation without logically explaining why it came to that, would make the setting quite flawed imho (and yeah good luck explaining that logically...).

I like to give DA-Inq. as an example here, who painted a good amount of npcs black. For you that was probably fine, to me it was just silly that those culturally white European npcs were painted black. There were no cultural African background to those people. They were simply medieval Europeans painted black for no other reason than a kinda confused sense of political correctness.
Let's imagine a game set in a world based culturally on central Africa 600 to 800 years ago and half of the people there would be made white, but behave, speak and act like all the other Africans of those times. Would that really make sense to anyone? To me it would be comical at best...

 

[KOngo-Otto]

Well the French could get away with wearing heels since you don't need to run to surrender

I get the joke, but to do them historical justice, they had a pretty badass cavalry back then.

 

[kiadaw]

W3, you are in the Northern realm, a region, In DA:I, you have like a mini world, with tropical araes with palm trees, Apline areas with snow covered ground, & dessert. You expect not to have darker skin people in tropical/desert areas? The reach for these game have reached further & people surely interact. so its fine. It will be more silly if there are no ethnical diversity when you have dessert & tropical regions.

In W3, its still more like Mediveal North Western Europe. You could have a few traders of Arab or African original, but it would not be a common sight I reckon. They could add a handful to the game, but the number wiöl be some small that I just do not see this it as a must.

 

[KOngo-Otto]

Actually, her whole outfit, including the broad belt/corset and loose fitting blouse, are modeled after 17/18th century fencing gear... sure, it's stylized to look more feminine (not many female fencers around back then, and even if, they still wore dresses ). but it has a clear origin in real world fashion, like most outfits/armors in the game... yes, even the revealing dresses worn by sorceresses.

Good point!
Actually i don't have a problem with the Boobs shown in game or the clothing.
I would love to see more e.g women traders or merchants. There were plenty of them in that time period.

There is an interesting read about the topic:
Women in the Medieval Guilds, by Lady Magdelene Saunders
http://www.lothene.org/feudalist/newsletter/guilds.html

Excerpt of above text:
Here are a few examples of jobs done by women in the medieval period:
brewer, laundress, barrel and crate maker, soap boiler, candle maker, book binder, doll painter, butcher, keeper of town keys, tax collector, shepherd, musician, rope maker, banker, money lender, inn keeper, spice seller, pie seller, woad trader, wine merchant, steel merchant, copper importer, currency exchanger, pawn shop owner, lake and river fisherwoman, baker, oil presser, builder, mason, plasterer, cartwright, wood turner, clay and lime worker, glazier, ore miner, silver miner, book illuminator, scribe, teacher, office manager, clerk, court assessor, customs officer, porter, tower guard, prison caretaker, surgeon and midwife.

There are records of women traders in 1205 in Genoa, Italy. In fact, 21% of people involved in trade contracts there in the 13th Century were women. Women also provided 14% of capital in seafaring ventures at the time.
Even earlier, in the 12th Century, there are records of women traders in Georgia, Eastern Europe. Paris tax registers for 1292, 1300, 1313 list lots of craftswomen, many of whom were in different trades to their husbands. In 1397 in Cologne a butchers' charter grants men and women equal status in the trade. There are 14th and 15th Century records of several women clerks, including three clerks of courts in a parish in Nuremburg.

 

[ironhorse384]

Funny, I never noticed she was wearing heels because when I played her I guess I was too busy trying to eviscerate things.

 

[Liquidacid]

You people do realize that what Europe was like in the middle ages in real life has absolutely NOTHING to do with this game right? It's a completely different and fictional world. One which Humans aren't even originally from nor have they even been living in for all that long.

Just saying

 

[ironhorse384]

I get the joke, but to do them historical justice, they had a pretty badass cavalry back then.

Until someone decided to march a 500,000 man army into Russia.

 

[Liquidacid]

Until someone decided to march a 500,000 man army into Russia.

Hey now "The moral is to the physical as three to one!"

What could go wrong?

 

[ironhorse384]

Hey now "The moral is to the physical as three to one!"

What could go wrong?

IDK, burning and winter? lol

 

[bigcrazewolf]

I couldn't help but feel that this is such a non-issue when I read the article a few days ago.
My exact thought
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAA1xgTTw9w

 

[Killgrow]

T.....

So does anyone have a good guess at any legitimate reasons. Because otherwise, I'm just going to chalk all the media controversies to the usual garbage pile of obvious attention grabbing shenanigans.

Sadly I have the bad feeling its mostly about money and maybe influence. Not that there are no legitimately concerned people, there are some people whose heart is in the right place and they have real concerns, but they are often overshadowed by people who make a living off the controversy and who see issues where they are not and try to make real issues seem worse than they are. (Example:Media, web sites, community leaders, politicians).

The "game review" sites learned that the highest and lowest game ratings drew more traffic as people want to see what the highest and lowest ratings had to say. They also learned people will come back more often if there is controversy. So why do you think paragon gave the lowest scoring review and gave controversial reasons? Maybe they have real concerns, maybe not, but its a fact they will make more money because of it either way. I had never been to their site before this current review. $$$$

 

[KadashmanEnlil]

Those heels as you called them, are actually modelled after 17th century French Cavalry boots and were worn by men at that time.

It's not just them Frenchies. Here's Hendrik Casimir, Count of Nassau-Dietz and Stadhouder of Friesland, Groningen and Drenthe (the 3 northeastern provinces of the Netherlands) and 'Landkomtur' of the Teutonic Order's 'Ballei' of Utrecht:

There are actually quite a few portraits and drawings of high-ranking, often armed and armoured dudes with this kind of boots. It was a thing in the 17th century.

 

[KOngo-Otto]

It was a thing in the 17th century.

Yup, it really was, the hottest Trend in 17th century mens fashion, so to say. Obviously the French always had a "hand" for fashion, even back then. *rofl*

 

[latios507]

never believed in media. But like it or not... eventually developers will conform to the norms.

 

[ironhorse384]

never believed in media. But like it or not... eventually developers will conform to the norms.

What norms are those? The ones self absorbed narcissists believe the rest of society should adhere to?

 

[latios507]

What norms are those? The ones self absorbed narcissists believe the rest of society should adhere to?

Yup, more or less. Sad isn't it