Well, I didn't read any of the threads since I couldn't be bothered but from what I've read from secondchildren's examples taken from said threads, I believe they should stay locked too. I think they are enough to be considered as advocating piracy.
@AnDr01d
No problem in being idealistic. And the situation is more likely you said. It doesn't matter how much we agree\disagree with things said pro\against piracy, there are those lines there and we have to deal with them. Taking care of the crap it's part of our job
@Costin
The storm has already begun there. Long before you entered the conversation The fact is I'm wondering myself if let it restart or not. But I'd rather having the opinion of Seeker and Petra first.
No problem in being idealistic. And the situation is more likely you said. It doesn't matter how much we agree\disagree with things said pro\against piracy, there are those lines there and we have to deal with them. Taking care of the crap it's part of our job
@Costin
The storm has already begun there. Long before you entered the conversation
The fact is I'm wondering myself if let it restart or not. But I'd rather having the opinion of Seeker and Petra first.
I do think its important we get to discuss it on a gaming forum. That's the place the discussion should take place, But gaming forums frequently have rules basically forbidding it. Catch 22 for the mods.
I think Tommy closed it for 2 reasons
-insults were being exchanged
-some folks, including me, admitted to piracy in the past.
I think Tommy closed it for 2 reasons
-insults were being exchanged
-some folks, including me, admitted to piracy in the past.
Well you got one right insults and what i considered to be advocating was the other .slimgrin said:
As i see it past is past and has no bearing on the present . If someone however admits to very recently then that is a whole nother matter entirely .
EDIT : Some may not be aware but on the old forum i had the unfortunate experience of at least 4 times of being 100% certain that users came here on the official forum asking tech questions of why their game wouldn`t work and come to find out they got their game illegally . Imagine that . I was not a moderator then and very active in tech section and then the rule came out that you had to have a registered game before asking for help . Which is why i hold such a hard stance on the subject .
I have personally no problem with admitting piracy. Supporting or advocating is another story. When you steal something, you must know that it's wrong. So admitting something and saying "I made a stupid thing" is a thing, saying "I do not pirate, but there are reason for doing so and so..." is another and it's hypocrite imo.
So I prefer honesty.
So I prefer honesty.
There's a thin line mods have to walk because they have people to answer to, and the first thread was a great gauge of where that line is. Whether or not we find it fair that forum users are/aren't allowed to get into piracy discussions (and I do wish we could at least discuss it), that's where the line has been drawn in this particular forum and anyone who saw the first thread could have seen the end of the second coming from a mile away based on that. That's not what the point of that thread was, anyway—the discussion was about people's opinions on CDP's methods of fighting piracy, not piracy itself, and had people stayed on that point rather than pushing the line I doubt the thread would be locked right now.
It still makes me sad, though. That was one of the best discussions I've ever had on this forum.
It still makes me sad, though. That was one of the best discussions I've ever had on this forum.
I feel quite let down that this forum would not allow free discussion of such a budding issue. CDPR's ability to listen to their customers is one of the qualities i've valued most in them. And though i know they only mean good through these actions, i think there are a lot of valid concerns being raised by the media and the gaming community that should not be ignored.
Below is my opinion on the matter, tactfully censored to comply with the forum's rules.
Also - an interesting video.
Below is my opinion on the matter, tactfully censored to comply with the forum's rules.
I love CD Projekt’s games, and i love their company policies – no DRM, free DLC, PC-oriented development, it’s all great, but this here is something i simply can’t agree with.
See, i live in Eastern Europe and, not to whine, but the medium monthly wage in my country is about 250-300€. Age 12-17 the bulk of my spare money went to keeping up a gaming PC. Video games, movies, music, books – those i had to get through [REDACTED].
I must’ve sifted through hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of media, and it was fantastic having access to all that in my teenage years. Screw how low quality releases in my country are, a lot of the stuff i’ve come to like isn’t even available without importing from outside. [REDACTED] opened up a whole new world to me, I will be eternally grateful for that and simply can’t find it in myself to condemn it, even if there are people who [REDACTED] just for the heck of it.
Now that i have the means, i enjoy buying the entertainment i like. It’s great having legitimate, physical copies and supporting the people behind these creative works. Hell, i [REDACTED] The Witcher back in 2007, now i own TW:EE and TW2 both on GOG and from retail (kudos again to CDP for being one of the few developers nowadays that make worthwhile boxed releases), i don’t think of myself as a thief because of that, i hope CDP don’t either.
But if i was slapped with a 700€ fine for [REDACTED] a game as a kid, well… it would’ve been pretty traumatic, i probably would’ve dropped gaming altogether, and i consider gaming a significant part of who i am today.
I sincerely urge CD Projekt to stop this foolishness and focus their efforts elsewhere (maybe patching TW2′s damn interface). They’ve built a strong fanbase over the last 4 years and it wasn’t through extortion letters, but through honesty, kindness and understanding towards their customers.
See, i live in Eastern Europe and, not to whine, but the medium monthly wage in my country is about 250-300€. Age 12-17 the bulk of my spare money went to keeping up a gaming PC. Video games, movies, music, books – those i had to get through [REDACTED].
I must’ve sifted through hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of media, and it was fantastic having access to all that in my teenage years. Screw how low quality releases in my country are, a lot of the stuff i’ve come to like isn’t even available without importing from outside. [REDACTED] opened up a whole new world to me, I will be eternally grateful for that and simply can’t find it in myself to condemn it, even if there are people who [REDACTED] just for the heck of it.
Now that i have the means, i enjoy buying the entertainment i like. It’s great having legitimate, physical copies and supporting the people behind these creative works. Hell, i [REDACTED] The Witcher back in 2007, now i own TW:EE and TW2 both on GOG and from retail (kudos again to CDP for being one of the few developers nowadays that make worthwhile boxed releases), i don’t think of myself as a thief because of that, i hope CDP don’t either.
But if i was slapped with a 700€ fine for [REDACTED] a game as a kid, well… it would’ve been pretty traumatic, i probably would’ve dropped gaming altogether, and i consider gaming a significant part of who i am today.
I sincerely urge CD Projekt to stop this foolishness and focus their efforts elsewhere (maybe patching TW2′s damn interface). They’ve built a strong fanbase over the last 4 years and it wasn’t through extortion letters, but through honesty, kindness and understanding towards their customers.
Also - an interesting video.
This is a subject that many of us have passionate views on, and of course we want to express them. But the cynic in me says that forum debates achieve nothing, when everyone holds starting positions that they feel very strongly about. They either escalate to flaming as passions rise, or fizzle into repetition.
I can see why both threads were closed, and I *do* think that they both crossed lines, with regards both to advocating piracy and insulting other members, however passively it was done. And yes, it would be great to see posts deleted rather than locked threads.
But as soon as the mods start deleting posts, there's a risk that those individuals targeted start screaming "censorship" and get even more upset. So I can also accept the logic of locking the threads.
If you want to get your message (criticism or support) to CDPR, maybe just contact them direct?
I can see why both threads were closed, and I *do* think that they both crossed lines, with regards both to advocating piracy and insulting other members, however passively it was done. And yes, it would be great to see posts deleted rather than locked threads.
But as soon as the mods start deleting posts, there's a risk that those individuals targeted start screaming "censorship" and get even more upset. So I can also accept the logic of locking the threads.
If you want to get your message (criticism or support) to CDPR, maybe just contact them direct?
I love CDP..LOVE EM. But their track record for communication with the fanbase is pretty poor. I think the best venue, however, would be the GoG forums.
slimgrin said:
http://www.gog.com/en/forum/general/cd_projekt_red_goes_after_file_sharers_riaa_mpaa_style/
54 pages and counting...
That thread is awesome and full of good material, and it really makes me wish we had managed to keep our thread open long enough to bring up the RPS article that came out yesterday. That would have spiced things up considerably since there are some official replies quoted on there.dragonbird said:
To respond to your previous post, forum debates have their uses so long as too much isn't expected of them. Of course no one's opinion is likely to change in such a heated discussion, but being able to make our points really helps to see things from other perspectives. After that thread I can much better understand the arguments in favor of what CDP is doing despite personally disagreeing, and hopefully that went both ways.
Also, what happened to Anarki? Apparently his/her account got suspended here, according to this post. Kind of curious as to what happened, and with no account here and the GOG account deleted there's no way of asking directly.
Pretty noble stuff from RPS.
Although, it'd be nice if they leveled this kind of scrutiny at EA, Activision, and Ubisoft, who employ equally dubious tactics - only they happen to do it to paying customers. Proof is easy too. You buy the game, get fucked over by DRM, and even have a receipt to prove it. And any 'solution' is considered illegal.
Damn...look where we are again.
Although, it'd be nice if they leveled this kind of scrutiny at EA, Activision, and Ubisoft, who employ equally dubious tactics - only they happen to do it to paying customers. Proof is easy too. You buy the game, get fucked over by DRM, and even have a receipt to prove it. And any 'solution' is considered illegal.
Damn...look where we are again.
As a senior mod, as far as I'm concerned, Tommy's decision to lock the topic is his. If he wants to re-open it and see when/where/how fast the sh&t hits the fan, we can sit back and watch.
My opinion is that it would be better for those who want to discuss this issue to go to GoG to do so as they will find a larger audience and number of opinions to agree/disagree with.
My opinion is that it would be better for those who want to discuss this issue to go to GoG to do so as they will find a larger audience and number of opinions to agree/disagree with.
Allright, as my post was the last one before Tommy locked the thread and as I was probably one of the more passionately arguing members (at least in the second thread) I kinda feel called to the drawing board.
I didn't notice any insults or malicious berating of each other by users. I happened to be publically accused of being disrespectful to someone, so I publically explained my point and apologized, in case my explanation still wasn't satysfying. Had the fellow member complained to me via PM - I would reply to him in the same way. But he did this in public so I felt like responding the same way. Don't see anything wrong with that.
As the whole topic of piracy is controversial - it will ignite the flame, but I still think in terms of dispute standards we managed to stay over the line. However, as secondchildren pointed out - the advocating piracy issue have been taken too far.
I don't have a problem with mods locking threads, it's their right. Have to agree with our Penguin Overlord though, that discussion we had was one of the best here so far.
Looking forward to more disputes with you guys...even though I won't stop being idealistic about some things
Yours sincerely,
noble knight from the Order of Flaming Rose AKA humble servant of the Emperor's Inquisition
I didn't notice any insults or malicious berating of each other by users. I happened to be publically accused of being disrespectful to someone, so I publically explained my point and apologized, in case my explanation still wasn't satysfying. Had the fellow member complained to me via PM - I would reply to him in the same way. But he did this in public so I felt like responding the same way. Don't see anything wrong with that.
As the whole topic of piracy is controversial - it will ignite the flame, but I still think in terms of dispute standards we managed to stay over the line. However, as secondchildren pointed out - the advocating piracy issue have been taken too far.
I don't have a problem with mods locking threads, it's their right. Have to agree with our Penguin Overlord though, that discussion we had was one of the best here so far.
Looking forward to more disputes with you guys...even though I won't stop being idealistic about some things
Yours sincerely,
noble knight from the Order of Flaming Rose AKA humble servant of the Emperor's Inquisition
Nothing good came from those topics and it was very good decision to lock them. And I'm not referring to the whole piracy case but insults and negative energy that was flowing through those posts. We encourage everyone to discuss everything you like on our forums, but please keep it nice and polite There's no need to throw insults at each other.
There's no need to throw insults at each other.Anarki has been suspended for explicitly advocating piracy. Please, remind that when you subscribe to this forum, you are supposed to accept and agree (and respect) the rules. But if you want to discuss it, contact any of us (Keth actually) whenever you like.
About deleting\not deleting posts: no way. I am sorry, but locking a thread is reversable, deleting it is not. Not to mention the fact in that thread, many posts would have been subjected to this. We can't reduce the pages of a thread. Plus, it is important that the "proof" stays where they are, so that everyone can see them. And anyone has to take his own responsibility for what he said. Since you see locking threads like censorship, what would you think of deleting?
227,
you're right that topic was not about piracy itself, but about how company deal with it. But the fact is that still lots of people where sublty\less subtly advocating it. You can't deny that those few example I've listed above weren't there. You see, it is very different having those stuff scattered throughtout a thread instead of reading them altogether summarized. Nevertheless, I am still saying that most of those posts were borderline, but no damage. On the contrary, flaming has not much interpretation and it's not borderline.
So again, we can reopen it, no problem, but please at least be honest and admit this.
I also wonder what's all this needing on CDP word about it. I mean: maybe they do not have much to say or it's simply pointless being covered with things like: "I won't never buy any of your games, if you do this! Action like yours are immoral, you want to do the big bad company scaring the poor customer! C'mon CDP, you wanna make extra bucks, coz you know that eventually pirates are potential customers! Piracy is not hurting for companies, they're simply greedy beaurocrats."
What do you expect CDP replies to this?
One last thing: I'd like you to know that in this forum people are allowed to say more than they could in other places. Bioware forum is an example. I've seen lots of insults to Devs, some very very rude and we have never ever censored them, not even once. In other places you can be banned for that. So please, at least do not say that there is all this censorship here.
About deleting\not deleting posts: no way. I am sorry, but locking a thread is reversable, deleting it is not. Not to mention the fact in that thread, many posts would have been subjected to this. We can't reduce the pages of a thread. Plus, it is important that the "proof" stays where they are, so that everyone can see them. And anyone has to take his own responsibility for what he said. Since you see locking threads like censorship, what would you think of deleting?
227,
you're right that topic was not about piracy itself, but about how company deal with it. But the fact is that still lots of people where sublty\less subtly advocating it. You can't deny that those few example I've listed above weren't there. You see, it is very different having those stuff scattered throughtout a thread instead of reading them altogether summarized. Nevertheless, I am still saying that most of those posts were borderline, but no damage. On the contrary, flaming has not much interpretation and it's not borderline.
So again, we can reopen it, no problem, but please at least be honest and admit this.
I also wonder what's all this needing on CDP word about it. I mean: maybe they do not have much to say or it's simply pointless being covered with things like: "I won't never buy any of your games, if you do this! Action like yours are immoral, you want to do the big bad company scaring the poor customer! C'mon CDP, you wanna make extra bucks, coz you know that eventually pirates are potential customers! Piracy is not hurting for companies, they're simply greedy beaurocrats."
What do you expect CDP replies to this?
One last thing: I'd like you to know that in this forum people are allowed to say more than they could in other places. Bioware forum is an example. I've seen lots of insults to Devs, some very very rude and we have never ever censored them, not even once. In other places you can be banned for that. So please, at least do not say that there is all this censorship here.
Regarding CDP replies, I do NOT expect them to respond in the forums, and actually think it would be a bad idea for them to do so (the Bioware forums are a good object lesson on how forums shouldn't be run).
However, I hope very much that they respond quickly and fully to those external commentators and to the points raised, in particular the RPS article that 227 mentioned above.
However, I hope very much that they respond quickly and fully to those external commentators and to the points raised, in particular the RPS article that 227 mentioned above.
It's a PR affair and I think CDP have one, unified strategy about this so they deliver one consistent message all across the board. I don't think we would see anything else here than we get to see on other sites. It could certainly mess up their communication strategy if we did.