One of the Downsides of WotW?

+
Nah... ST engine overload is so easy to counter that it hurts. It's got no engine protection apart from Miners, no bronze tutors like AA, no bronze doublers like Adelia or Ulrich, etc. As long as you answer the Sentries and Gezras, you're good. And then there's Yrden which seems like it's designed to counter this deck. It's a meme deck, really. It's almost auto-forfeit vs. any decent control. And unless you win a round without the Sentries, Gay-tan and Gezzy (and Justice unless you got other things to swarm, I use the cowboy besides Justice, I've seen quite a lot of elf hybrids, too), and then draw both Sentries and all the golds for a long R3, some "solitaire" decks got even more points these days.

Also, even if you protect the Sentries, a number of moving engines can then be answered instead, potentially bricking the Senties. And that is provided they even draw the right combination of engines which doesn't always happen, and there's no AA to remedy that.

Most witcher decks this patch are rather memesey, I think. SK seems most viable, competitively. Once meta stabilizes and new control decks get optimized, ST movement will hardly manage to get a T3, mark me words. This is like like the double ball right after MM. It rocked because everyone was playing devotion and no one had Heatwave and Oneiro (yet).



Nailed it. This is the reason why I think the above.
I consistently answer both sentries and Gezrats and sorry, but very often it's not enough. They have Matrons, they have Cat Witchers (both relevant varieties), a Boar, a couple of powerful tempo plays just for shit and giggles...you indeed need to run a dedicated control deck, and I know you see no problem with that, but guess what? Not everyone likes control spam.

More importantly, no deck should be allowed to bully players into playing a particular style, control in this case. "Just play X to counter a pesky Y" isn't an acceptable answer unless X is a single card or a short combo, tops.

Which was also the problem with Double Ball, btw. "It's not broken, you just have to play wide".
Imagine if Rock could beat BOTH Paper and Scissors and would only lose to Spock specifically?
It would be considered pretty unfair. Why treat archetypes differently?
 
Last edited:
I, as a ST main, have to say.. I HATE the new ST movement stuff :giveup: I always hoped for more movement support but good lord this archetype is almost as annoying as NG putting trash on top of your deck and stealing your oneiromancy. I guess I might like it if I didnt encounter this deck 50% of the time after re-reaching rank 2. it's obviously overtuned enough to be fotm
 
I play a lot of SY and I challenge you to make a competitive deck with Salamander. The win condition is so small, you have to kill your own unit which takes a turn to even execute the Renew. Sorry but it's a meme deck.
This deck will probably never be better than T3, but it's that situation, when you just loose if you don't have that one specific card that can counter it, that is kind of broken. I played few games with it, i was able to pull it off every time and lost only once.
 
Actually, I also consider WotW to be one of the best of all, but I also have some points of criticism.

1) Main new concepts basically are more or less related with heavy boosted units being heavily punished by Yrden:
- NR: witcher uprising swarm
- MO: Wy, Werrat swarm deck + Chimera, Thrive + Kotschey
- SC movement: due to Sentrys, Gezras Range Boost and Cat witcher mentor
- SK damage du to Bear witcher mentor
- SY Fallen Rayla + self-poison boosts
- NG Viper witcher mentor + Kolgrim
=> For almost every new deck you face punsishing via Yrden brings intense value

2) Many old concepts were not reactivated. Why are there no WotW scenarios, WotW devotion units, WotW echo cards, WotW evolving cards, WotW rupture cards, WotW defenders?
 
The thing I like most about the expansion is how it changed the round-by-round playstyle for everyone. Before, round 1s always had the same structure of setting some stuff at the beginning, then nope'ing out as soon as you get a pass. With Adrenaline there's now a very solid mid-round and late-round gameplay happening, with bronzes that give you good points at the end of the round. I really like that
 
=> For almost every new deck you face punsishing via Yrden brings intense value
For those you listed, yes.
For those you haven't and are still very dominant in the early meta, far from it (on the contrary, it can brick miserably):
- SK: New Lippy/Cerys deck;
- SK: all different warriors deck variations;
- NR: Revenant (Idarran) control;

In short, yes, Yrden got more useful with this expansion. Is it a good thing? Probably not, I agree here. Still, I see an absolute wider variety in successful decks compared to any of the MM months before, and this alone makes me happy with WotW.

2) Many old concepts were not reactivated. Why are there no WotW scenarios, WotW devotion units, WotW echo cards, WotW evolving cards, WotW rupture cards, WotW defenders?
Because you cannot mash everything in one package and still keep any identity for that expansion. WotW has a very strong character with the main Witcher theme, as well as the mutation related new additions, including the sorcerers behind the whole thing. Adding any of the elements you listed would simply diminish this character.
Also, as my very personal opinion, I'm not sure the game would greatly benefit from additional Defenders, Scenarios and Echo cards - the existing ones are already having a heavy toll on game balance.
 
... I'm not sure the game would greatly benefit from additional Defenders, Scenarios and Echo cards - the existing ones are already having a heavy toll on game balance.
But for Devotion and maybe evolving cards(I like them :) ) some more would be nice...
 
But for Devotion and maybe evolving cards(I like them :) ) some more would be nice...
Sure thing. But I have my hopes up really - WotW showed a lot of attention to previous archetypes as well as provided a well rounded balancing update for a good number of powercrept bronzes / golds. If they keep this tendency with new content, they can call me a satisfied customer :)
 
For those you listed, yes.
For those you haven't and are still very dominant in the early meta, far from it (on the contrary, it can brick miserably):
- SK: New Lippy/Cerys deck;
- SK: all different warriors deck variations;
- NR: Revenant (Idarran) control;

In short, yes, Yrden got more useful with this expansion. Is it a good thing? Probably not, I agree here. Still, I see an absolute wider variety in successful decks compared to any of the MM months before, and this alone makes me happy with WotW.


Because you cannot mash everything in one package and still keep any identity for that expansion. WotW has a very strong character with the main Witcher theme, as well as the mutation related new additions, including the sorcerers behind the whole thing. Adding any of the elements you listed would simply diminish this character.
Also, as my very personal opinion, I'm not sure the game would greatly benefit from additional Defenders, Scenarios and Echo cards - the existing ones are already having a heavy toll on game balance.

Yes, many of those Idarran Combo decks are not hitten by Yrden. Some holds for those old SK warrior decks.
 
Having the adrenaline buff on the Cat Witchers that makes them do 2 damage per turn shows us how basically how the devs either don't know in the slightest how to balance the game OR (much more likely) don't want to game to be balanced cause then they'd be out a job so they have to keep it perpetually unbalanced to justify having to work on it.
Ways to fix this (pick one):
A) Make it a gold card for 5 Prov so you can't have TWO of these beasts.
B) Make it 6 provisions.
C) Just remove the adrenaline bullshit (or make it adrenaline 0) so they're not completely breaking the game.
 
Having the adrenaline buff on the Cat Witchers that makes them do 2 damage per turn shows us how basically how the devs either don't know in the slightest how to balance the game OR (much more likely) don't want to game to be balanced cause then they'd be out a job so they have to keep it perpetually unbalanced to justify having to work on it.
Ways to fix this (pick one):
A) Make it a gold card for 5 Prov so you can't have TWO of these beasts.
B) Make it 6 provisions.
C) Just remove the adrenaline bullshit (or make it adrenaline 0) so they're not completely breaking the game.
just have 4prov removal on you dude
 

Mi_V

Forum regular
just have 4prov removal on you dude
There are 3 of them cat witchers, 1 from location. Sentry is more important target, if you don't kill them, you lose. ST still have those Matron Dryads. Do you have answers for all of those threat and Gezras?
 
There are 3 of them cat witchers, 1 from location. Sentry is more important target, if you don't kill them, you lose. ST still have those Matron Dryads. Do you have answers for all of those threat and Gezras?

Yeah, ST is insane right now.

I think the only way to win against them is to play SK and just destroy any ST units that hit the board. LOL
 
Difficult set-up? Wtf? You just play Abominations, Salamander and Renew; nothing else. All the other cards (Rayla, Kalkstein, etc.) are just a bonus.
This combo might not become meta, but it is insanely strong. Just like Arnaghad+Sukrus or Idarran+whatever. And unlike the other 2 combos, countering Salamander requires some very specific cards.

Salamander and renew is easiest to counter. Just play a 4 point Squirrel which is also useful even against other decks.

And the other day, I won against that deck with monsters. Tbh, I did not think of this until it happen.

I use my ozzrel to eat the salamander before it gets renew :)
 
There are 3 of them cat witchers, 1 from location. Sentry is more important target, if you don't kill them, you lose. ST still have those Matron Dryads. Do you have answers for all of those threat and Gezras?
If you struggle against a certain deck, before condemning that deck, I suggest trying to play it — even if you play a version lacking a few key cards. There is nothing like playing a deck to observe its vulnerabilities (and perhaps how others exploit them). Even without Gezras and Oneiromancy, playing ST movement convinced me that the archetype is extremely strong, but it has at least two significant weaknesses: it is very vulnerable to timely row punish and it is very low tempo. If you can win round one, or even push it to leave ST with virtually no cards at the end, ST has a hard time recovering. I don’t know that these weaknesses are enough to keep the deck from being OP, but they suggest approaches to address the deck. I do feel that the cat Witcher’s adrenaline power is too much.
 
If you struggle against a certain deck, before condemning that deck, I suggest trying to play it — even if you play a version lacking a few key cards. There is nothing like playing a deck to observe its vulnerabilities (and perhaps how others exploit them). Even without Gezras and Oneiromancy, playing ST movement convinced me that the archetype is extremely strong, but it has at least two significant weaknesses: it is very vulnerable to timely row punish and it is very low tempo. If you can win round one, or even push it to leave ST with virtually no cards at the end, ST has a hard time recovering. I don’t know that these weaknesses are enough to keep the deck from being OP, but they suggest approaches to address the deck. I do feel that the cat Witcher’s adrenaline power is too much.
yeah ST is not OP. it's strong which is fine but as you said this archetype is terrible in a short round. the elves version is better on a short round but even that deck can be bled effectively
 

Mi_V

Forum regular
If you struggle against a certain deck, before condemning that deck, I suggest trying to play it — even if you play a version lacking a few key cards. There is nothing like playing a deck to observe its vulnerabilities (and perhaps how others exploit them). Even without Gezras and Oneiromancy, playing ST movement convinced me that the archetype is extremely strong, but it has at least two significant weaknesses: it is very vulnerable to timely row punish and it is very low tempo. If you can win round one, or even push it to leave ST with virtually no cards at the end, ST has a hard time recovering. I don’t know that these weaknesses are enough to keep the deck from being OP, but they suggest approaches to address the deck. I do feel that the cat Witcher’s adrenaline power is too much.
What? they have built-in row changers: 1 from location, 3 from leaders. Some decks even tech Vrihedd Dragoon.

And low tempo? ST has one of the most OP thinning card: N Justice. That's 13 points for 10 provisions, in 1 turn AND thinning AND 3 bodies row filler. Normally thinning cards cost more provisions than normal one, like MO riders, NG brigades: 8 points for 10 provisions.

Forest Protector is not low tempo card, Oak isn't, same as Gaetan combos with sentry and cat witcher mentor. That combo is ~ 20 to 30 points in one turn. And the most broken card Gezras, even you row block him, he's still boost or attack while in his card description requires him to change row.

Not mention Brehen: hey you have a tall you unit. Nice try to play around, bro, by put it on the left of your row. How about I push it to other row and kill it, 4 power body with 8 provision!
*Eyes rolling intensify*
 
[...]ST has one of the most OP thinning card: N Justice. That's 13 points for 10 provisions, in 1 turn AND thinning AND 3 bodies row filler.[...]
N. Justice with M. Volunteers = 13 points (and thinning) for 20 provisions (10 + 2*5)

Normally thinning cards cost more provisions than normal one, like MO riders, NG brigades: 8 points for 10 provisions.[...]
...and M.Volunteers are 8 points for 10 provisions too.
 
Please reduce the starting power of the Viy down to 6 (from 8) and reduce the amount of power it's deathwish gives it by 1 (down to 2).
Or just think of a new effect for the card, one that doesn't break the game preferably.
 
Top Bottom