One story beat I hope they avoid in Cyberpunk 2

[Gothic_Wizard]

One thing that always stood out to me as gratuitous fan service was them shoe horning in every major NPC from the TTRPG 2020 books. Ok Silverhand is in your head via an engram got it. But then Saburo being something like 150, his son which is around half that, Rogue, non-stop talk about Morgan still being alive, etc. I get it. They wanted to cater, shower easter eggs to all the TTRPG fans, but it was IMO overly gratuitous thus breaking immersion. How many people can I suspend disbelief that are 80 yrs old jumping around like they are still 25. Seriously. There is sticking to the source material in a respectful manor and then just being a slave to it, to afraid of moving it forward.

Now that the bending over backwards to the TTRPG fans is out of the way I hope they take a more nuanced, fresh approach to the major NPCs in Orion and stop trying to find ways to bring back NPCs from the original settings who should be long dead at this point.

One thing I will say I respect about the Shadowrun universe the game started out in 2050, its now in the 2080s and several reoccurring notable NPCs over the years have bit the bullet. I would suggest they do the same and get some fresh NPCs. CDPR has proven they can make NPCs we fall in love with, it's certainly not a lack of ability to do on their part, just the will to stop slavishly going back to the 2020 books and bending over backwards to put them in the story.

My 2 coppers

 

[Jep1st]

Pretty much all of the old people who still look younger than they are, are powerful and rich people so I don't see it as lore breaking if someone can still appear as if they're in their late 50's during their 80's like Rogue or Kerry.
In the case of the Arasakas, well... Arasaka is the most technologically advanced company in the world and Arasaka is pouring billions to keep the main members of the family alive so is it surprising that someone like Saburo can reach the age of 150? Not for me.
After all people in the real world reach ages over 100yo all the time and not all 100yo people are drooling in a wheelchair. So it's not hard to imagine what you could achieve with high tech artificial organs and various transplants with the addition of futuristic medical care.

 

[Gothic_Wizard]

We can sit here all day rationalizing, making excuses for why 100 yr old people are running around and screwing like they are 25. But it does not dismiss my core point. Trying to in-game explain why they are running around wasn't my issue or concern.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

We can sit here all day rationalizing, making excuses for why 100 yr old people are running around and screwing like they are 25. But it does not dismiss my core point. Trying to in-game explain why they are running around wasn't my issue or concern.

There is no excuse, it's just facts. If you have money, you can live longer and look younger... And this is still a difference between social classes.
Rich people can look young whatever their age.
The common people... well, it's already good if they live old...

Extremely rich people :

People with full body replacement or almost (so whatever how old they are, they'll always look young) :

Quite rich people :

Not rich people :

After one ending, Saburo can possibly become immortal, so useless to ask about age and look anymore... A 150 years old dude could look like a teenager...

 

[Gothic_Wizard]

*sigh* Is anyone going to actually address my point or we just going to derail this into justifications why which my OP had 0 to do with?

If I wanted to carry on this line of discussion I'd say then why isn't there thousands of 100+ yrs old running around like they are 25, why is it only the major NPCs from the 2020 books? Exactly. easter eggs, catering as I said above. Not one original character from the 2020 decade is introduced that isn't or associated with NPCs from the original TTRPG that I can recall. So let's move on shall we?

Can we have them focus on original characters which they are VERY GOOD at in Orion rather then dreg up every NPC they can from the grave/2020 books? I personally find after the 6th 100 yr old I've meet still alive and acting like they are 25 immersion breaking. THAT is my point.

 

[GrimReaper801]

I understand this isn't the gist of your point. Your argument is just extremely subjective though.

This is Night City. A city full of legends. In a world where god(s) and religion have been mostly discarded, those individuals have become the thing of legends and Night City mythos.

You may dislike it but I personally find it very interesting. These people are Night City and the world of Cyberpunk 2077. It lends a sense of importance to the story to have these legendary figures be included. The chip wouldn't feel half as important if Saburo didn't even care enough to pursue it himself. The fact he's willing to go to the extents he does to get it back speaks to how important this chip is.

Likewise, the fact you end up working with Rogue, another legendary figure of NC, lends credence to the fact V isn't just some average merc anymore. V went from being a nobody to working with the fixer.

Just like beating Adam Smasher gives a sense of how powerful V has become to defeat such a powerful enemy. Lore-wise anyway since gameplay wise Smasher is quite disappointing but that's another discussion.

In a world like Cyberpunk 2077, these legendary figures are simply incredibly rich (or associated with extremely wealthy individual in the case of Smasher) and wealth can buy you an extended lifetime. I also don't see how that's so immersion breaking. It's how even our own world works. Life expectancy has doubled in most of the world in the last 100 years and to this day, the richer you are, the better treatment you have access to. 50 years old today can be in much better shape they could ever hope to be back in 1905. I don't see how hard it is to believe that so many of the incredibly wealthy are prancing around like 30 years old when things like literal cybernetic improvement/replacement are a common thing.

But, again, this is all extremely subjective. You are, of course, free to think it's immersion breaking but I personally welcome it and can get immersed just fine.

 

[LadyMiseryAli]

What you're saying is you want CDPR to bring in more original characters. I mean, they can and should, but at the same time, no harm in bringing some of the characters from the TTRPG in as well. They can do both and I hope they do. Still holding out hope that V is in the sequel, so it would make sense for the other characters to be there as well.

 

[Gothic_Wizard]

One of two for 'oooohhhhh' factor is cool, when you got a dozen+ of them involved in the same story it loses it's luster, impact and it's just another 100 yr old running around. It's a going to the well too many times troupe which I take issue with. The fact there a couple is one thing, when they are growing on trees is another and my point of contention.

If your trying to make the case this is the normal and the world is filled with 100 yr olds running around like they are 25 then, as you said subjective, but I find it just a cheap, lazy story telling troupe to not to kill off major NPCs. Putting the fact their age didn't kill them all this time and they have been active all this time and NO ONE was taken them out yet? So I am to believe everyone of these major NPCs not only cheated father time & mother nature but also every gig, rival merc and assassination attempt for a century? EVERY ONE of them? Come on. I know.. I know.. you hardcore CP fans are going to, yet again, rationalize this, but anyone who can objectively look at this from a lore, storytelling perceptive should find this poor, lazy, overly convenient/simplistic writing in the TTRPG part and partly 2077s.

I give the 2020 lore, history a LOT of leeway due to I understand it's a product of its time written in the mid 80s. If you peer at it to close its logical fallacies, inconsistency and illogical events are glaringly obvious. So I try not to do that with it and just process the lore, history on the surface level. It makes far more sense that way, to me at least. However this is the one in your face thing that, again was an idea as a product of its time, and I wouldn't lose any sleep if they just put it on the back burner and never addressed it again in future CP games. As it was overdone ad nauseam in 2077.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

As it was overdone ad nauseam in 2077.

Overdone in CP ? I'm not sure characters from the lore represent even 1% of all characters created/involved in Cyberpunk 2077 story... I believe it's maybe less than the whole witcher series.

Edit :
Let's list the characters imported from the lore... (I could miss somes, but I don't think to be far from list them all...)

• Saburo Arasaka
• Hanako Arasaka
• Yorinobu Arasaka
• Michiko Arasaka (you can meet her once during one ending)
• Adam Smasher
• Rogue
• Alt (obvious it's an AI)
• Johnny (doesn't really count, he's already dead...)
• Not sure that Samurai band (Kerry, Nancy,...) appear in the Cyberpunk TTRPG

That's all I think... You can compare with the full list of characters in the game :
Cyberpunk characters

 

[CS554]

I know.. you hardcore CP fans are going to, yet again, rationalize this, but anyone who can objectively look at this from a lore, storytelling perceptive should find this poor, lazy, overly convenient/simplistic writing in the TTRPG part and partly 2077s.

Nah, I think it's really a setting thing. How someone sapient can be so old in the world of cyberpunk just like that? when in other products, like Shadowrun there are Elves and dragons and shit, which is so conveniently explained by magic, so it it all makes sense.

There is though, if we ignore the magic, transhumanist thing here, that human brain estimated capacity to store memories is about 200 years and even Saburo isn't pushing that limit. Then there's perhaps a little detail that you have missed. Sometimes game shows you one thing and then if players looks around there are datashards, encounters with NPC's, sometimes even radio broadcasts.

So I just have this feeling here, that you have missed one very important NPC who explains all the things you are complaining about and there's also radio broadcast, probably didn't hear that either.

Maybe you just need to keep going with the game.

 

[GrimReaper801]

So, from context, I believe your last post is aimed at my answer to you and I was honestly willing to delve further into the conversation until I read this:

I know.. I know.. you hardcore CP fans are going to, yet again, rationalize this, but anyone who can objectively look at this from a lore, storytelling perceptive should find this poor, lazy, overly convenient/simplistic writing in the TTRPG part and partly 2077s.

Which really just reads as - if you don't agree with me you are not able to be objective and are just plain wrong.

That really just tells me you didn't really want to have a conversation about this. I get the impression you just wanted people to agree with you and aren't willing to accept other opinions as possibly valid even if the subject matter is extremely subjective and there are no right or wrong here.

Personally, I have no interest in that kind of argument. So I will bow out of the conversation and let others have at it if they feel like it.

 

[Gothic_Wizard]

Overdone in CP ? I'm not sure characters from the lore represent even 1% of all characters created/involved in Cyberpunk 2077 story... I believe it's maybe less than the whole witcher series.

Edit :
Let's list the characters imported from the lore... (I could miss somes, but I don't think to be far from list them all...)

• Saburo Arasaka
• Hanako Arasaka
• Yorinobu Arasaka
• Michiko Arasaka (you can meet her once during one ending)
• Adam Smasher
• Rogue
• Alt (obvious it's an AI)
• Johnny (doesn't really count, he's already dead...)
• Not sure that Samurai band (Kerry, Nancy,...) appear in the Cyberpunk TTRPG

That's all I think... You can compare with the full list of characters in the game :
Cyberpunk characters

And you're not making my case for me? You don't think that's pretty overkill for one story?

Less is more applies to storytelling too IMO.

Post automatically merged: Dec 17, 2022

Nah, I think it's really a setting thing. How someone sapient can be so old in the world of cyberpunk just like that? when in other products, like Shadowrun there are Elves and dragons and shit, which is so conveniently explained by magic, so it it all makes sense.

There is though, if we ignore the magic, transhumanist thing here, that human brain estimated capacity to store memories is about 200 years and even Saburo isn't pushing that limit. Then there's perhaps a little detail that you have missed. Sometimes game shows you one thing and then if players looks around there are datashards, encounters with NPC's, sometimes even radio broadcasts.

So I just have this feeling here, that you have missed one very important NPC who explains all the things you are complaining about and there's also radio broadcast, probably didn't hear that either.

Maybe you just need to keep going with the game.

I bought the game on release, Finished it more times then I can recall. I don't think my lack of playing it as you imply is the issue here. But that's just me. shrug

 

[LeKill3rFou]

And you're not making my case for me? You don't think that's pretty overkill for one story?

Less is more applies to storytelling too IMO.

For a story which involve a main character, named Johnny who come from the lore, a character dead 50 years ago... A story rich of hundreds of new characters, clearly not...
Take a look on TW3 (just this episode), I guess it's way more. So CDPR is/was good to adapt characters from lore/original IP... not just create new ones, unlike what you seem to assume.

But hey, believe what you want

 

[CS554]

I bought the game on release, Finished it more times then I can recall. I don't think my lack of playing it as you imply is the issue here. But that's just me. shrug

Yeah, well, I won't spoil the thing for you, so that's you.

 

[Gothic_Wizard]

For a story which involve a main character, named Johnny who come from the lore, a character dead 50 years ago... A story rich of hundreds of new characters, clearly not...
Take a look on TW3 (just this episode), I guess it's way more. So CDPR is/was good to adapt characters from lore/original IP... not just create new ones, unlike what you seem to assume.

But hey, believe what you want

It has 0 to do with 'belief' but one that has to do with storytelling style. I am of the view keep going to the same well to keep digging up easter egg characters from the TTRPG isn't the best way forward for CP2. As was said above and I agreed it is more or less subjective. And you are certainly entitled to like that cliche. I however don't and feel CP2 would be best served serving up fresh characters (mostly) as major NPCs. Create a new NPC mythology rather then feeling slavishly bound and bending over backwards to shoehorn in 100 yr old characters and justifying why they are still alive. It just makes IMO more sense and does not bend the suspension of disbelieving to the point of breaking.

 

[ShinAkira00]

*sigh* Is anyone going to actually address my point or we just going to derail this into justifications why which my OP had 0 to do with?

If I wanted to carry on this line of discussion I'd say then why isn't there thousands of 100+ yrs old running around like they are 25, why is it only the major NPCs from the 2020 books? Exactly. easter eggs, catering as I said above. Not one original character from the 2020 decade is introduced that isn't or associated with NPCs from the original TTRPG that I can recall. So let's move on shall we?

Can we have them focus on original characters which they are VERY GOOD at in Orion rather then dreg up every NPC they can from the grave/2020 books? I personally find after the 6th 100 yr old I've meet still alive and acting like they are 25 immersion breaking. THAT is my point.

The problem with your point is that more than 90% of the people playing cyberpunk 2077 have never heard of or played the TTRPG. So you're in effect asking them to change something for a niche player base. To the average player it's not "shoe-horned" it's just lore for the video game.
You need to realize adaptations are not made for fans.

What's simultaneously ironic about it is, if they drastically changed too much lore from the TTRPG then the same fans would then complain that it tarnishes the source material.

The lesson here is, the devs will never please everyone and they should not try to.

 

[Notserious80]

i can kinda see your point, but at the same time if they did not include some of the legends the game would really not feel like CP. Since its the first game and alot of people know about atleast some of these characters i feel like they kinda hade to include them in some way. Might not have too have been meeing them and so on, but storys about them or hearing what there up too atleast.

Kinda what im hoping the next CP will do too V unless you can actually play V in the sequel (witch i kinda doubt). It is fanservice but at the same time its world building and people would probably have been more pissed if there were no old characters in it.

 

[Gothic_Wizard]

i can kinda see your point, but at the same time if they did not include some of the legends the game would really not feel like CP. Since its the first game and alot of people know about atleast some of these characters i feel like they kinda hade to include them in some way. Might not have too have been meeing them and so on, but storys about them or hearing what there up too atleast.

Kinda what im hoping the next CP will do too V unless you can actually play V in the sequel (witch i kinda doubt). It is fanservice but at the same time its world building and people would probably have been more pissed if there were no old characters in it.

Again I am not being overly critical of 2077 on this level, as I said above I -get- why they did it. I personally felt it was WAY overkill, there is fan service then there is what they did. But again that's subjective more or less. But now with CP2 they crammed every major NPC they could in the main story of the first game let's not repeat that and have some more fresh original characters is my point. Certainly a few from the first game can and arguably should make a cameo, but I think less is more is the approach they need to take for Orion.

If they were sticking with red engine I would say Orion is certainly taking place in Night City. As it's already built and makes sense to reuse it. However with them moving to Unreal they need to rebuild the city from the ground up. And that could open up them moving the story to any other city. Thus I also feel the cameos are dependent on that. If the story takes place in a cyberpunk version of say Boston then clearly, at best, you may have mitch or/and panam as major NPCs as it can be explained they traveled around and ended up there. But aside from some nomads probably not a lot of room for cameos that won't feel shoehorned. That said, if they rebuild NC in unreal then that opens up a ton more cameos like Rogue, some of the fixers, Jefferson and so on. I do feel the setting of the story in Orion should certainly play a part in how many NPCs from 2077 show up.

 

[Spectral_Warrior]

One thing that always stood out to me as gratuitous fan service was them shoe horning in every major NPC from the TTRPG 2020 books. Ok Silverhand is in your head via an engram got it. But then Saburo being something like 150, his son which is around half that, Rogue, non-stop talk about Morgan still being alive, etc. I get it. They wanted to cater, shower easter eggs to all the TTRPG fans, but it was IMO overly gratuitous thus breaking immersion. How many people can I suspend disbelief that are 80 yrs old jumping around like they are still 25. Seriously. There is sticking to the source material in a respectful manor and then just being a slave to it, to afraid of moving it forward.

Now that the bending over backwards to the TTRPG fans is out of the way I hope they take a more nuanced, fresh approach to the major NPCs in Orion and stop trying to find ways to bring back NPCs from the original settings who should be long dead at this point.

One thing I will say I respect about the Shadowrun universe the game started out in 2050, its now in the 2080s and several reoccurring notable NPCs over the years have bit the bullet. I would suggest they do the same and get some fresh NPCs. CDPR has proven they can make NPCs we fall in love with, it's certainly not a lack of ability to do on their part, just the will to stop slavishly going back to the 2020 books and bending over backwards to put them in the story.

My 2 coppers

Let me make an equation with another franshise...
Imagine the Star Wars OT was a book prior to 1977. They then unveil the first filmed depiction of the book but there's no Darth Vader, Lord Sidious, no Luke, Han, Leia or Obi.
In stead its a selection of chad, bill, mike, harris, millie and mr. dark... How would you think that would be received when its 'supposed' to be a faithfull adaption?

There's your answer.
This aint fan service, this is the world as per the lore and state of said world of cyberpunk around the time its set.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

Let me make an equation with another franshise...
Imagine the Star Wars OT was a book prior to 1977. They then unveil the first filmed depiction of the book but there's no Darth Vader, Lord Sidious, no Luke, Han, Leia or Obi.
In stead its a selection of chad, bill, mike, harris, millie and mr. dark... How would you think that would be received when its 'supposed' to be a faithfull adaption?

There's your answer.
This aint fan service, this is the world as per the lore and state of said world of cyberpunk around the time its set.

This is a poor analogy because in this case the movie takes place during the same time period as the book in the Star Wars universe. It's essentially telling the same story but translating it to a different medium. That would be an adaptation.

This is very different from CP. The game doesn't take place during the same time period as events involving characters from the lore. The story has many parallels to events in the lore but it's distinct in enough ways to be it's own thing. It's not really an adaptation at all.

Of course, people tend to be a bit too restrictive with their perspective of adaptations. That word does not mean a 1:1 translation. In fact, it means the opposite given adapt means to change. This is often what happens when "adaptations" are made. Especially when it comes to entertainment being translated to different mediums. Book, movie, TV series, game. When you translate either to the other changes have to be made. Otherwise it won't quite work.

I suspect the point of the thread is straight up pulling all these characters from the lore and putting them into the game can create the sense it's lacking in creativity, instead choosing to piggyback off the lore. It's much easier to take an existing work and re-use it instead of making your own. It can also appear to be a little forced.

Now, I'm not saying this is the only way to look at it. This is a very subjective area. I can understand the argument though. None of this is to say the game is bad or flawed for doing it either. Again, it boils down to a matter of taste.

All of that aside, I think it's crystal clear what the OP is complaining about is exactly what the development was trying to achieve. It was part of their creative vision. There is nothing wrong with it. Disagreeing with it and voicing those concerns isn't unreasonable though.