One thing bothers me about the upcoming game (vague spoilers for the books)

[arkblazer]

But to go into detail . ive argued this a hundred times and i will do a hundred more. No, Ciri is not a mary sue.

just because a character has tons of bullshit powers it doesnt mean that they are mary sues. Is superman , batman and basically every other super hero a mary sue? no. a Mary sue is a character that is perfect. Ciri is not perfect she has character flaws . wether she has a tons of BS powers is irrelevant. in fact one could argue that Geralt is closer to being a Mary Sue because Geralt doesnt have any discernible flaw.

I can understand why some hate her becasuse alot just wanted to see geralt being dark and edgy monster hunter . But what i liked is that she added a new dimension to Geralts character.

More than the fact that she took Geralts spotlight in the novels. what i didnt like was that there was so little time between Geralt and Ciri I honestly hope CDP gives us more time of those 2 interacting.

Anyway i dont think Mitasova has to worry Ciri will mostl;likely be mostly a mcguffin in the game just like in the novels.

 

[Mefris]

[...]Geralt doesnt have any discernible flaw[...]

 

[Geralt_of_bsas]

I don't think the character is bad or wrong in any way honestly, but she just had unnecessary attention in the saga overall. She's not perfect, and I don't believe she was protected by the plot because of her own value, but rather because of what she brings to Geralt's journey, she's never the main character, but If she wasn't important, nor powerful, there'd be no reason for any kind of opposition against Geralt regarding her.

I don't think the games will focus much on her, not only this is the Geralt of Rivia trilogy, but also Ciri hasnt been present in the story so far, which reduces expectations and any possible "debt" writers might have to deal with , and now Yennefer, the Wild Hunt, and Nilfgaard are creating enough trouble to have Geralt busy.

I do expect to play as Ciri for some hours though, and Yennefer too, since the game is perfectly long enough to have that without it being unfitting.

 

[Doctalen]

To be honest, I did expect a lot more monster hunting in the book series than there is so far. I'm about half way through Baptism of Fire right now. Ciri does kind of put a whole stop to Geralt being a Witcher it seems like. I can understand some people not expecting that and maybe not liking the whole Ciri thing. I can totally understand having expectation of the book series that didn't match up after playing the games. I understand why Geralt is kind of putting being a witcher to the sidelines in the story I am currently reading though. I don't mind Ciri but I can see how others might. The games look so far like Ciri isn't going to take focus away from slaying monsters and being a witcher though. In fact it looks like they fit that into the story from what we've seen.

 

[mitasova]

just because a character has tons of bullshit powers it doesnt mean that they are mary sues. Is superman , batman and basically every other super hero a mary sue? no. a Mary sue is a character that is perfect. Ciri is not perfect she has character flaws . wether she has a tons of BS powers is irrelevant. in fact one could argue that Geralt is closer to being a Mary Sue because Geralt doesnt have any discernible flaw.

There is actually no generally accepted definition of a mary sue. In my book, a sue is "an impossibly competent character with a cool back story and an idealized personality (and often an improbably convoluted heritage), and they manage to be likable to most of the audience most of the time", but fine, I am not going to argue the definition. No matter how you call her, Ciri is still a ridiculous character who routinely breaks the rules of the universe she exists in and relies on bullshit powers and convoluted coincidences to push the plot along. That's enough for me to find her friggen obnoxious not to metion badly written, because well written characters don't rely on unicorns to save them in a pitch.

The fact that she was given as much screen time in later books as Geralt pretty much soured the story for me, and I'm terribly afraid the same will happen in the game.

Also, mind clarifying which character flaws does Ciri have?

 

[mitasova]

But there's the other side of the coin, without the plot armor, in the first dangerous situation for the main character, he/she could die and then it's game over. :hai:
I agree with you though, if it's subtle and doesn't get in your face all the time, then I don't mind.

This is from a coulple of pages back, but I find it interesting. See, I think that a certain amount of plot armor is acceptable for a hero of a story to protect him/her from random happenstance and the like, otherwise we might get "and then he slipped on a banana peel and broke his neck, the end". That would be, of course, terrible. But a story, if it is about a hero overcoming challenges, must present these challenges being overcome in a beliveable way, based on that hero's previously established traits, skills, connections, wit and so forth. I.e. the Grain of truth is about Geralt overcoming a challenge in a beliveable way and killing the bruxa, because the fact of Vereena's love for Nivellen was previously established by the writer. So, the story reaches a satisfying conclusion.

If on the other hand, a hero is stranded in a desert and ends up saved by a magical unicorn appearing out of nowhere, a critical reader closes the book thinking "this is bullshit". One such instance is forgiveable, if annoying, but if the writer keeps pulling things out of his ass again and again to save the hero from certain doom (the skates, the hermit, the magical horse, the magical elf, the list goes on), the story breaks and the character in question becomes unlikeable.

ETA: And btw, "oh, she's the child of destiny, so she can do whatever the hell she likes" doesn't count as "previously established" in my book

 

[arkblazer]

Yeah do tell me all those flaws that he has? the best i can come up with was that Waangst that he has for yennefer nothing more. He is so sad for a lost love. that's it.

There is actually no generally accepted definition of a mary sue. In my book, a sue is "an impossibly competent character with a cool back story and an idealized personality (and often an improbably convoluted heritage), and they manage to be likable to most of the audience most of the time",

Holy sh!t doesnt that just sound like Geralt? Ciri wasnt that competent, she spent most of the series messing up, also she wasnt "likable to most of the audience most of the time" Most characters found her to be an annoying brat.

but fine, I am not going to argue the definition. No matter how you call her, Ciri is still a ridiculous character who routinely breaks the rules of the universe she exists in and relies on bullshit powers and convoluted coincidences to push the plot along.

No Ciri is not breaking the rules of the universe because those are still part of the lore, Again is superman breaking them also because he flies and does all those things? no because they are part of the lore, thats what the story was about . The same way the central plot of the saga was about people trying top get that power from Ciri.

That's enough for me to find her friggen obnoxious not to metion badly written, because well written characters don't rely on unicorns to save them in a pitch.

That's actually a plot device used by greek literature and theater known as Deus ex Machina. is greek literature and theater badly written in your opinion then?

The fact that she was given as much screen time in later books as Geralt pretty much soured the story for me, and I'm terribly afraid the same will happen in the game.

Yeah that is understandable. even though i told you were my opinion differed. But dont worry i dont think she will get half the screen time in the game
even though i would like that personally as a Cirifan

Also, mind clarifying which character flaws does Ciri have?

Ok well lets see, she is arrogant, violent, vengeful, and even a bit cowardly. also why dont you check your own posts and the many times you complained about her being a brat, thats flaw wouldn't you say?

 

[6ad5026b]

Yeah do tell me all those flaws that he has? the best i can come up with was that Waangst that he has for yennefer nothing more. He is so sad for a lost love. that's it.

It doesn't sound like you've ever played the games or read the books. I can give you two major flaws right off the bat: He's infertile and as Berengar points out in The Witcher when you first meet him, there's a damning flaw in his defense because of a prior injury.

 

[mitasova]

Holy sh!t doesnt that just sound like Geralt? Ciri wasnt that competent, she spent most of the series messing up, also she wasnt "likable to most of the audience most of the time" Most characters found her to be an annoying brat.

I'm not here to talk about Geralt. And Ciri not competent? Wtf? Let's see:
1. She is a princess, a heir to the throne. Okay, fair enough, that's a circumstance of her birth.
2. A sword prodigy at the age of what, 15?
3. The only female witcher ever.
4. A sorceress with vast (mostly) untapped powers
5. Highly educated.
6. A better skater than Skellige natives.
I'm sure I forgot a couple more. Oh, and physically attractive too. And she's mostly LIKED by anyone who she interacts with - Yennefer, Triss, the witchers, the Rats, the Skellige folks, Yarpen. Who doesn't like her, again? Vilgeforz or the bounty hunter? They are villains.

No Ciri is not breaking the rules of the universe because those are still part of the lore, Again is superman breaking them also because he flies and does all those things? no because they are part of the lore, thats what the story was about . The same way the central plot of the saga was about people trying top get that power from Ciri.

I'm not really qualified to have an opinion on that, but for what it's worth, I don't have a particularly high opinion of superhero "literature". To put it mildly.

That's actually a plot device used by greek literature and theater known as Deus ex Machina. is greek literature and theater badly written in your opinion then?

Yes, those parts of Greek literature were badly written, just like parts of Sapkovski's books concerning Ciri are. The ancient Greeks, at least had an excuse of not knowing any better.

Ok well lets see, she is arrogant, violent, vengeful, and even a bit cowardly. also why dont you check your own posts and the many times you complained about her being a brat, thats flaw wouldn't you say?

Mind pointing me to those posts where I called her a brat? As for the rest, okay, she does have some flaws. Doesn't matter for the issue I take with her character.

 

[Nars]

How people can pass over for example Vilgefortz being a canonical, generic to the bone evil badass mage, so lightly and yet accousing Ciri of being Mary Sue is beyond me.

Thats the whole beauty of Sapkowski writing. He crates ostensible archetype an then he starts to deconstructing it with unsurpassed mastery.

 

[Nucta.397]

Create one strong female character and watch men hiding in a corner. Nice.

 

[arkblazer]

It doesn't sound like you've ever played the games or read the books. I can give you two major flaws right off the bat: He's infertile and as Berengar points out in The Witcher when you first meet him, there's a damning flaw in his defense because of a prior injury.

Not really character flaws. just circumstances.

I'm not here to talk about Geralt. And Ciri not competent? Wtf? Let's see:
1. She is a princess, a heir to the throne. Okay, fair enough, that's a circumstance of her birth.
2. A sword prodigy at the age of what, 15?
3. The only female witcher ever.
4. A sorceress with vast (mostly) untapped powers
5. Highly educated.
6. A better skater than Skellige natives.
I'm sure I forgot a couple more. Oh, and physically attractive too. And she's mostly LIKED by anyone who she interacts with - Yennefer, Triss, the witchers, the Rats, the Skellige folks, Yarpen. Who doesn't like her, again? Vilgeforz or the bounty hunter? They are villains.

1) Thank you for admitting that its silly in return I concede 2
2) yeah you have a point but in fantasy and basically most entertainment mediums that isnt at all rare. atleast there was actual development . when she left Kaer Morhen she didnt magically become a badass. remember when the scoiatel attacked the caravan in Blood of the Elves? did she become this sword wielding bad-ass? no she froze up like a normal human being. In most novels she spent the time just running away. it wasnt until several novels that she became a badass.
3) Same as 1 and she is not a witcher
4) no she is not competent as a sorceress she could barely do some basic spells and soon lost them anyway. wether she has potential or not doesnt matter. I could have the potential to be a world class swimmer. doesnt mean i am.
5)Well she got an education and is smart. so? She s hardly a genius.
6) Dont remember that part could be my book translation. even then so what?
7) her attractiveness is debatable .
8 ) Geralt and Yennefer both didnt like her at the start and though she was a brat . Classmates of her in melittles temple found her arrogant and didnt like her. Triss and the witchers had pity for her because she was a kid. the witchers also didnt treat her all that well. Maybe Coen and versemir grew fond of her. Lambert constantly verbally abused her and just though of her as some brat,. Eskel was indifferent also triss had political interests
of the rats only Kailegh and Mistle showed any interest for her . Kayleigh she saved and both were after her ass.

In general there was no marysueish unconditional love for ciri. whenever she acted like a brat, people though of her that way. the rest was mere desire for her power and political interest.

Yes, those parts of Greek literature were badly written, just like parts of Sapkovski's books concerning Ciri are. The ancient Greeks, at least had an excuse of not knowing any better.

The thing is that sapowstki wanted to insert the element of dimensions on that story. So he needed Ciri to be saved that way. Had it been much more acceptable had a caravan of desert travelers found Ciri and rescued her instead? it wiould syill have been a deus ex machina . The reason that was placed in the story was so that that element began to be for shadowed in the saga .

Mind pointing me to those posts where I called her a brat? As for the rest, okay, she does have some flaws. Doesn't matter for the issue I take with her character.

Yeah confused your posts to some other detractor. my apologies.

 

[mitasova]

Create one strong female character and watch men hiding in a corner. Nice.

... lolwut?

Here's a fun exercise for you - find me an example where I (or any of the people who agree with me) hold Ciri being female as a point against her. Knock yourself out.

Also, I'm neither a man nor hiding.

PS. @arkblazer, I've seen your latest post, but I'm tired and going to bed. I'll reply to you tomorrow.

 

[Shavod]

Create one strong female character and watch men hiding in a corner. Nice.

That's pretty funny, because I noticed that while Ciri's male detractors usually keep it civil, female detractors are the one who are using the strongest insults toward her. And let's not oversimplify this issue to the generic "battle of the sexes", because being a "strong character" doesn't make you immune to the criticism. Most people who are just fine with Ciri still admits there are some problems with the way Ciri was written by Sapkowski in final books. Even Marcin Blacha stated that publicly on forum. But at the same time I will admit though that term "Mary Sue" became greatly overuse on internet to the point that it completely lost for many it's original meaning, not to the level of "autistic", but still. Thus I dislike this term and prefer not to use it myself. Then again, when you have this feeling that character is little too perfect in every way, I understand why it may took a lot of enjoyment out of it.

 

[Nucta.397]

... lolwut?

Here's a fun exercise for you - find me an example where I (or any of the people who agree with me) hold Ciri being female as a point against her. Knock yourself out.

Also, I'm neither a man nor hiding.

То есть, ты женщина и тебе не нравится женский персонаж?

I strongly suspect a Troll.
Stop feeding, people.

 

[Nucta.397]

That's pretty funny, because I noticed that while Ciri's male detractors usually keep it civil, female detractors are the one who are using the strongest insults toward her. And let's not oversimplify this issue to the generic "battle of the sexes", because being a "strong character" doesn't make you immune to the criticism. Most people who are just fine with Ciri still admits there are some problems with the way Ciri was written by Sapkowski in final books. Even Marcin Blacha stated that publicly on forum. But at the same time I will admit though that term "Mary Sue" became greatly overuse on internet to the point that it completely lost for many it's original meaning, not to the level of "autistic", but still. Thus I dislike this term and prefer not to use it myself. Then again, when you have this feeling that character is little too perfect in every way, I understand why it may took a lot of enjoyment out of it.

Well, it's first time I've seen a woman disliking Ciri. First times are first.
Sometimes it looks like people read a different book from what I've read. I see an interesting character, fully explained, living, breathing, changing and developing into something beautiful. Other people see Mary Sue.
Point is, I see Ciri as a sacred being. Some one was calling her Holy Grail. Nice definition, too. According to the lore of the saga she is not only what she looks like or behaves. Well, i'm tired and english is not my first language. Maybe someone who understands me will explain it better.

 

[Doctalen]

То есть, ты женщина и тебе не нравится женский персонаж?

I strongly suspect a Troll.
Stop feeding, people.

Wait, what. You suspect a troll? Are you saying that a woman must like any character that is also a woman? You're the first person to bring up gender at all regarding Ciri from what I've seen too.

 

[Kinley]

I strongly suspect a Troll.
Stop feeding, people.

How about we stop labeling people with different opinions than our as trolls.

 

[EliHarel]

Sheesh, this is getting real tense real fast. Gender wars? Seriously?

I'm not bothered by the definition of Ciri's narrative archtype. This reminds me a bit about arguments about what constitutes an RPG or not, and if a game is more or less.

To me this is just a headline. Call Ciri a "Mary Sue", a "Chosen One", a "Super Woman" or whatever you want - arguing and nitpicking these terms to hell and back to try and explain why they don't accurately capture this character or that diverts the discussion from tackling what are actually the benefits \ flaws of each character from a story-telling perspective.

I share mitasova's general hope that CDPR, when writing quests with or about Ciri, will keep the progress of events reasonable and not pull miracles around her.

How people can pass over for example Vilgefortz being a canonical, generic to the bone evil badass mage, so lightly and yet accousing Ciri of being Mary Sue is beyond me.

Thats the whole beauty of Sapkowski writing. He crates ostensible archetype an then he starts to deconstructing it with unsurpassed mastery.

I don't think it's "either\or". Criticism against Ciri doesn't come at the expense of criticism against Vilgefortz or any other character.

 

[gregski]

Guys, let's discusss the topic in a civil manner and drop the ad hominem remarks.