Oneiromancy is completely over the top and echo in general pushes power creep to new, obscene levels

[DrunkHemplar]

I say this as someone who runs a double ball Oneiromancy deck but that's hardly the worst abuse for it, the card sets up so many power plays it's insane - and while sure as maybe a 14 provision card (12 is too low) there's echo on it which is the decider for how insane it is.

Every game I am almost guaranteed to get off my strongest combo, be it double ball, double heat wave, double Yennefer's. The options are nearly endless - and due to War Council (a totally fair card on it's own) you can even double Yennefer's or double Heat Wave in a single turn.

Don't get me wrong, it's fun to play a deck this overpowered but this is some next level lunacy in terms of design lol. The only other deck I can remember that can pull off hyper consistency and very strong plays was Lippy Skellige DD Turbo back when the Witcher Trio and Roach weren't nerfed and that deck was tier 0 material.

I think you may need to emergency patch. Additionally, I stole one of the new NR cards, the one with veil that boosts to the right if you don't use their order - and every turn it would trigger Thirsty Dame's boost which doesn't make any sense. Not sure if Veil is broken or you have the flag set wrong so Dame thinks the boost is a status effect.

 

[kikosalazar]

Squirrel

 

[Slizzl]

I say this as someone who runs a double ball Oneiromancy deck but that's hardly the worst abuse for it, the card sets up so many power plays it's insane - and while sure as maybe a 14 provision card (12 is too low) there's echo on it which is the decider for how insane it is.

Every game I am almost guaranteed to get off my strongest combo, be it double ball, double heat wave, double Yennefer's. The options are nearly endless - and due to War Council (a totally fair card on it's own) you can even double Yennefer's or double Heat Wave in a single turn.

Don't get me wrong, it's fun to play a deck this overpowered but this is some next level lunacy in terms of design lol. The only other deck I can remember that can pull off hyper consistency and very strong plays was Lippy Skellige DD Turbo back when the Witcher Trio and Roach weren't nerfed and that deck was tier 0 material.

I think you may need to emergency patch. Additionally, I stole one of the new NR cards, the one with veil that boosts to the right if you don't use their order - and every turn it would trigger Thirsty Dame's boost which doesn't make any sense. Not sure if Veil is broken or you have the flag set wrong so Dame thinks the boost is a status effect.

It really does scream "Ok what can we do next? Oh I know! ROYAL DECREE BUT TWO TIMES".
There needs to be a bit more moderation with new cards like this. I get that they want to create new and exciting cards but this is as you said over the top. A 14 provision cost seems fair for its effect. That's an actual trade-off.

 

[quintivarium]

Playing powerful cards multiple times is clearly problematic. I don’t really mind when a faction (pre-expansion SK) is designed around it, or a multi-card set up (Assire/Matta) is required. Echo in general is very poorly conceived unless it is given only to bronze cards.

 

[Slizzl]

Playing powerful cards multiple times is clearly problematic. I don’t really mind when a faction (pre-expansion SK) is designed around it, or a multi-card set up (Assire/Matta) is required. Echo in general is very poorly conceived unless it is given only to bronze cards.

I disagree. They can be fine if they're balanced around knowing they will be played twice, and could really help archetypes that struggle in R2/R3 like Fireswarm and Wild Hunt. These require setup in order to play effectively so you can't just throw them out willy-nilly. That's a good use of the mechanic I feel.
The real issue stems from the obviously overtuned ones namely SK, NR and Oneiromancy.
These seem poorly thought out and it's probably because they felt this compulsion to make an Echo for each faction+a neutral all at once so they just slapped these together without much consideration.
Forcing themselves to make not only unique evolve cards for each faction but also Echo ones in the same expansion might've been a bit too much.

 

[quintivarium]

I disagree. They can be fine if they're balanced around knowing they will be played twice, and could really help archetypes that struggle in R2/R3 like Fireswarm and Wild Hunt. These require setup in order to play effectively so you can't just throw them out willy-nilly. That's a good use of the mechanic I feel.
The real issue stems from the obviously overtuned ones namely SK, NR and Oneiromancy.
These seem poorly thought out and it's probably because they felt this compulsion to make an Echo for each faction+a neutral all at once so they just slapped these together without much consideration.
Forcing themselves to make not only unique evolve cards for each faction but also Echo ones in the same expansion might've been a bit too much.

I agree, the cards you mentioned are reasonable; it’s replaying powerful cards and effects that causes the imbalance.

 

[Guest 4404014]

Sorry to be blunt but I disagree with literally everything here. Game is already so power crept in the high provision department that drawing one less gold is often auto lose no matter what you do. Game should be about HOW YOU PLAY YOUR CARDS not about IF YOU DRAW YOUR CARDS. Oneiro is the best thing that happened in a long time. Should be cheaper, actually. Alternatively, the balance of power between cards from different provision ranges should be re-thought. But until that happens, cheap tutors for everyone.

 

[Slizzl]

Sorry to be blunt but I disagree with literally everything here. Game is already so power crept in the high provision department that drawing one less gold is often auto lose no matter what you do. Game should be about HOW YOU PLAY YOUR CARDS not about IF YOU DRAW YOUR CARDS. Oneiro is the best thing that happened in a long time. Should be cheaper, actually. Alternatively, the balance of power between cards from different provision ranges should be re-thought. But until that happens, cheap tutors for everyone.

Why can't it be how you play the cards you're dealt? I'd say that is far more skillful than just the order you play your cards.
When you can just tutor whatever whenever we end up with people just slamming down these huge value cards with no risk. Where's the skill in that? With that midrange is pointless and deckbuilding limited.
The fact that people feel robbed when they don't draw their big dumb Masquerade two times or when their Heaver bricks are balance issues and they went with the same "Ok just play whatever card you want deal with it yourself" band-aid solution that they did in the last part of the beta just before they scrapped it.
Solutions like making more artifact removals multipurpose are far better longterm.

 

[Draconifors]

Why can't it be how you play the cards you're dealt? I'd say that is far more skillful than just the order you play your cards.
When you can just tutor whatever whenever we end up with people just slamming down these huge value cards with no risk. Where's the skill in that?

Agreed. True skill definitely lies in making the best of what you get, not in merely choosing the order in which to play your optimal/best cards.

Oneiromancy is very strong indeed, and I really don't see why it exists in its current form.
I have it in one of my decks, but it's a Neutral quest deck that I only use for quests in casual mode so I don't really mind having such a ridiculous card in it. Even in that deck, literally just a bunch of Neutrals slapped together with very little synergies and a low Provision cap, Oneiromancy is extremely strong. Let alone in a deck that's actually built to be effective.

Yeah, you can kind of counter it with Squirrel or some other graveyard hate, but it will already have been used once. And even if only used once it's much stronger than Royal Decree since it can play any card, so when used once I'd say it's worth its 12 Provisions. When used twice... well.

 

[Sensimilius]

Sorry to be blunt but I disagree with literally everything here. Game is already so power crept in the high provision department that drawing one less gold is often auto lose no matter what you do. Game should be about HOW YOU PLAY YOUR CARDS not about IF YOU DRAW YOUR CARDS. Oneiro is the best thing that happened in a long time. Should be cheaper, actually. Alternatively, the balance of power between cards from different provision ranges should be re-thought. But until that happens, cheap tutors for everyone.

This doesn't make any sense.
Both players were equally susceptible to not getting exactly what they want to draw. That's the point of a card game, you (or your opponent) won't always draw EXACTLY WHAT YOU NEED, that's why you should build a deck that takes that into consideration and has cards in it that are more versatile in more then just one exact situation, and not just GIVE ME THIS - cheap Nuke strike! lol

 

[Menelaus234]

I feel that the impact of oneiromancy on non meta decks is being overlooked here..I've climbed to r6 swapping between an insects deck and a vampire deck against all the GS and NG trash partly because oneiromancy makes these weak decks much more consistent and viable. It's actually adding diversity into the game by allowing non-meta decks to perform much better.

As for the meta decks, it might make them even stronger but there's always going to be stronger decks regardless e.g skellige would be broken whether oneiromancy existed or not and double ball has been overperforming for a long time anyway

 

[kikosalazar]

Without this card devotion decks would be too powerful. Its a good counter and helps neutral decks stay competitive.

 

[Guest 4404014]

Why can't it be how you play the cards you're dealt?

True skill definitely lies in making the best of what you get

Two golds give you 25 value, and two 4ps give you 10 value. No matter the skill.

 

[Draconifors]

Two golds give you 25 value, and two 4ps give you 10 value. No matter the skill.

This doesn't make any sense.

 

[DrunkHemplar]

I feel that the impact of oneiromancy on non meta decks is being overlooked here..I've climbed to r6 swapping between an insects deck and a vampire deck against all the GS and NG trash partly because oneiromancy makes these weak decks much more consistent and viable. It's actually adding diversity into the game by allowing non-meta decks to perform much better.

As for the meta decks, it might make them even stronger but there's always going to be stronger decks regardless e.g skellige would be broken whether oneiromancy existed or not and double ball has been overperforming for a long time anyway

The issue is that while it buffs non meta decks massively, it also buffs meta decks and leads to spamming echo cards.
Echo, for the most part is probably the worst conceived mechanic ever and very, very few cards aren't going to become imba with the echo effect included because it essentially doubles the point value of the card.

I honestly think that any card which tutors from the deck should automatically lose the Echo status or their provision cost needs to be inflated so massively that it makes up for the broken effect.

 

[Menelaus234]

The issue is that while it buffs non meta decks massively, it also buffs meta decks and leads to spamming echo cards.
Echo, for the most part is probably the worst conceived mechanic ever and very, very few cards aren't going to become imba with the echo effect included because it essentially doubles the point value of the card.

I honestly think that any card which tutors from the deck should automatically lose the Echo status or their provision cost needs to be inflated so massively that it makes up for the broken effect.

It sounds like you're basing your view of echo being broken on one or two cards and not the entire set..look at Ard Gaeth..10 prov card that almost never plays for max value if your opponent has half a braincell and rowstacks..also completely useless in defending a bleed because of its low tempo but the irony is that you'll guarantee draw it specifically because of echo if you played it 1st round..echo actually makes it worse

Look at the thing that ST got (can't remember the name)..it's literally just a boost by X amount which they'll use on hamadryad to desperately try and get some synergy out of it

Those echo cards aren't broken by any definition and for oneiromancy you gotta honestly ask yourself who suffers more if it's nerfed, the double ball and GS players or the ones whose deck was tier 69 before it came along

 

[Guest 4404014]

Notice how I bring up concrete examples instead of just random numbers?

Hmm... no.

This doesn't make any sense.

Then let me explain. You guys support your arguments against tutors by preaching skill - getting the best of bad draws as a measure of a good player - and it all makes a lot of sense as a generalization but is totally disconnected from the specific reality of Gwent. And in that reality, quite the opposite is the case: drawing higher value often overrides the skill factor, sometimes to the extent where the skill become completely irrelevant.

Let me now elaborate on the post that "didn't make sense." Let's say that in a short R3, I draw 22 value in two cards (Usurper and Brathens) and you draw 8 value (two Jousts). It doesn't matter if you're a prodigy, I'm winning no matter what. So saying that skill makes up for bad draws is disconnected from Gwent and the huge discrepancy in the power of cards from different provision ranges. But imagine we both drew a tutor... suddenly a whole spectrum of skill gains relevance: how we played so far, what we committed, what we included, what we expect they other guy included, etc.

And you guys wanna lessen the impact of tutors and increase the impact of lucky draws so that zero-skill players win more often when they just happen to draw more points. Not unlike all the people who got to pro after 2 weeks in the game, riding on SK. That's not only because of lucky draws but also bad SK design but it's same thing in the end - they got more points, and often there's nothing even the most skillful player can do about it.

 

[4RM3D]

And you guys wanna lessen the impact of tutors and increase the impact of lucky draws [...]

There are two problems here. First of all, there is a difference between lucky draws and a Hail Mary. If you are forced into a 3rd round where you need specific cards to win, then that not an issue with RNG, but rather an issue with your playstyle or the (unfavorable) match-up. In this case, you cannot blame RNG.

Secondly, while it's still possible that you get (un)lucky, this should be an exception, in the grand scheme of things. While, if you increase tutors (or their efficiency), you're changing every match-up.

In short, to put it bluntly, you want to fix 5% of the matches by sacrificing the other 95% to make it happen. That's like killing a mosquito with a flamethrower.

Also, like I've mentioned in another thread:

Gwent is already the most consistent CCG out there. Yet, you want to go further? You want every game to play out the same? Because that's what you are getting with an overabundance of tutors. We have seen this nightmare already after Midwinter (in beta). We don't need it again.

 

[Guest 4404014]

If you are forced into a 3rd round where you need specific cards to win, then that not an issue with RNG, but rather an issue with your playstyle or the (unfavorable) match-up. In this case, you cannot blame RNG.

I fail to understand this. What decks do not need specific cards to win? Except SK? It's not a rhetorical question, I'm seriously asking for an example.

 

[Alexander_Volgin]

Hmm... no.



Then let me explain. You guys support your arguments against tutors by preaching skill - getting the best of bad draws as a measure of a good player - and it all makes a lot of sense as a generalization but is totally disconnected from the specific reality of Gwent. And in that reality, quite the opposite is the case: drawing higher value often overrides the skill factor, sometimes to the extent where the skill become completely irrelevant.

Let me now elaborate on the post that "didn't make sense." Let's say that in a short R3, I draw 22 value in two cards (Usurper and Brathens) and you draw 8 value (two Jousts). It doesn't matter if you're a prodigy, I'm winning no matter what. So saying that skill makes up for bad draws is disconnected from Gwent and the huge discrepancy in the power of cards from different provision ranges. But imagine we both drew a tutor... suddenly a whole spectrum of skill gains relevance: how we played so far, what we committed, what we included, what we expect they other guy included, etc.

And you guys wanna lessen the impact of tutors and increase the impact of lucky draws so that zero-skill players win more often when they just happen to draw more points. Not unlike all the people who got to pro after 2 weeks in the game, riding on SK. That's not only because of lucky draws but also bad SK design but it's same thing in the end - they got more points, and often there's nothing even the most skillful player can do about it.

Amen, lets keep the focus on what the reality is in Gwent, namely drawing your golds and the power level of those golds. Nerfing Oneiromancy in any way wont change the core-gamewinning-mechanic. You want more skillfull play ? Then reduce the variance in power level between high tier golds and 4p bronzes. Devs already did that, and the game now feels so much better compared to early launch of Homecoming.

And besides, I love Oneiromancy. All of mine non-meta decks have that card. And there is no way I feel bad about being 'constrained in my level of choice' as I prefer consistency in what I play, over being left to mercy of RNG. Bless Oneiromancy, the one of the very few cards in Gwent that truly supports skillfull play.

I only have a single question to those that argue from a broad theoretical framework about why this card is bad. Have you tried it ? That card feels very good, and it's not because it is 'OP' as it doesen't make any of the decks you play stronger. But allows you to better adapt to what the opponent is playing, and to excecute your gameplay that you build your deck around.

The moment it becomes profitable to mulligan away your golds, is the moment we can discuss 'skillfull play' 'adapt to your hand' 'less tutors'. Wake up people,
This game is all about drawing the golds.