Open decklists in pro-rank?

[Guest 4368268]

So I saw a discussion on Twitch & Reddit and on Twitch the competitive players were pretty much unanimously for open decklists in pro ladder whereas on Reddit the reaction was mostly negative from as far as I could tell. The first time I heard about this idea my first impulse was to be against it. But listening to how the pro players rationalized it I have changed my mind about it and think it would be a good idea.

As people that watch them will be sure to know Gwent tournaments use open decklists. You know what deck your opponent will be playing during the match and he knows yours. Decisions in the game can be made with this knowledge in mind. Because it works this way the game doesn't just evolve into a guessing game as to what the other player could be running but instead it's a strategic game where you can actively play around what you know the opponent has.

Since pro rank is the route to tournaments and tournaments use this format, wouldn't it make sense if pro rank itself would also be played under these rules? I'm sure this idea will be met with plenty of resistance. A lot of players love the fact their deck has an element of surprise and a few tricks up their sleeves and in fact their deck is only remotely viable because of this. Though I definitely see the fun in just that and I'm always in favour of using niche ideas for your deck, it doesn't really make the game any more skill rewarding in fact it makes it less so.

You can also ask yourself if such 'meme decks' should have a place in pro rank. They obviously fit casual much better and ironically we've got a situation now were in ranked there's often the surprise unitless deck of some sort and in casual people are often playing netdecks. If I had to guess this is because for a lot of players after they've reached pro rank there's not really much for them left to do if they're not actively grinding MMR towards top 500/200. Making casual the logical format for more experimenting style of gameplay just makes a lot of sense to me. How do you guys feel about this?

 

[4RM3D]

Short answer, no. Pro-rank is about quantity (farming). No single match can decide the outcome as a whole. In tournaments it's about quality (precision) and then it becomes an important tactical aspect to know your opponent's deck. Also, every match is important, as such.

Then there are the meme decks, like you've said. Pro-rank should be a different experience with more creative freedom.

 

[IvRoz]

. A lot of players love the fact their deck has an element of surprise and a few tricks up their sleeves and in fact their deck is only remotely viable because of this. Though I definitely see the fun in just that and I'm always in favour of using niche ideas for your deck, it doesn't really make the game any more skill rewarding in fact it makes it less so.

I'd argue that throwing off your oponent by bluffing and doing the unexpected requires skill. (A lot)

Also, while I reckon properly piloting a deck requires skill, so does building one.

I find what I highlighted in blue a bit sad.

 

[Guest 4368268]

I'd argue that throwing off your oponent by bluffing and doing the unexpected requires skill. (A lot)

Also, while I reckon properly piloting a deck requires skill, so does building one.

I find what I highlighted in blue a bit sad.

I agree that building proper decks (yourself) takes skill. As far as doing the unexpected goes though, it depends. If doing the unexpected means "OK now it's R3 and I'm a unitless deck" without having given any previous indication of it and you win because of this you can call it skillful but it's also worth observing the opponent had no way to prepare for this as he doesn't know which cards you're running and in what quantities.

You are right in about what you said about bluffing. That is an example of a skillful element that would disappear. I still think that it's beneficial overal though. I think skill is mostly defined by doing the unexpected in terms of actual gameplay sequencing and that you can still bluff plenty even with open decklists and in some ways even more so.

Short answer, no. Pro-rank is about quantity (farming). No single match can decide the outcome as a whole. In tournaments it's about quality (precision) and then it becomes an important tactical aspect to know your opponent's deck. Also, every match is important, as such.

Then there are the meme decks, like you've said. Pro-rank should be a different experience with more creative freedom.

In pro rank especially in the higher ranks every game is also important to given how you lose more MMR for losses than you gain for wins. I think tournaments being the more quality rich of the two is all the more reason to follow that concept.
The creative freedom can still be there, it just means you can't really pull a rabbit out of your hat and win because you played something your opponent couldn't have plausibly guessed.

 

[4RM3D]

it just means you can't really pull a rabbit out of your hat and win because you played something your opponent couldn't have plausibly guessed.

It's not so much about you pulling a rabbit out of your a--hat, but rather your opponent knowing (s)he doesn't have to play around it. For example, Igni is a flex slot card that is feared in certain metas and can appear in various decks, so people play around it. This makes the game more interesting having to carefully weigh your options and what you want to play around (one way or the other). If you know the opponent's deck, you'll just become more lazy. While it works both ways, it does destroy most creative solutions. Also, it puts too much emphasis on deckbuilding and too little on outwitting your opponent.

 

[Wobbrrs]

in tourney i think the deck list is public a few days prior so you have some time to study and be familiar with ur opponents deck?

definitely would not make sense for ladder due to the number of games people typically play in a season.
could you imagine how slow the games would be and all the roping?

 

[ya1]

+1

But make it voluntary. Check the box. If both checked, 10s to enjoy open lists before the game starts.

whereas on Reddit the reaction was mostly negative from as far as I could tell.

Yeah, you could as well argue for buffs to NG lol

 

[IvRoz]

I agree that building proper decks (yourself) takes skill. As far as doing the unexpected goes though, it depends. If doing the unexpected means "OK now it's R3 and I'm a unitless deck" without having given any previous indication of it and you win because of this you can call it skillful but it's also worth observing the opponent had no way to prepare for this as he doesn't know which cards you're running and in what quantities.

You are right in about what you said about bluffing. That is an example of a skillful element that would disappear. I still think that it's beneficial overal though. I think skill is mostly defined by doing the unexpected in terms of actual gameplay sequencing and that you can still bluff plenty even with open decklists and in some ways even more so.


In pro rank especially in the higher ranks every game is also important to given how you lose more MMR for losses than you gain for wins. I think tournaments being the more quality rich of the two is all the more reason to follow that concept.
The creative freedom can still be there, it just means you can't really pull a rabbit out of your hat and win because you played something your opponent couldn't have plausibly guessed.

I understand your point. I truly get it. It's only natural to try and measure one's skill.

However, let me point out that we have been provided with a platform to run tournaments with people who think alike.

Be it non meta, no tutors, no NG, no poison, point-slam-fiesta...

On the other hand, what you propose might end up in (even less) variety.

Most people already run the most finely tuned decks. There is no way to avoid it, since they are easily found on the Internet.

If "non meta" decks are (even remotely) viable because of the surprise factor, let them have it.

To sum it up, while I understand where you're coming from, I would rather Gwent didnt become "dominoes with tutors"

 

[DRK3]

I dont really care about Prorank, rarely do i have the patience to play enough ranked to get there. But i dont think that's such a good idea.

Open decklists on tournaments is so weird to me. These are the best players in Gwent, right? Then why make them play in a format easier than standard, where you dont know your opponent's deck?

That's why you never see Yrdens, Ignis, Regis (prior to nerf) on tournaments, as they're true value is in the surprise. And that's why tournament decks are so reliable and boring, and why you have to watch like 10 matches and get 1 where something exciting's happening, the others are just copies of matches happening in prorank all the time, but the stakes are higher so turns take longer...

 

[Slizzl]

I dont really care about Prorank, rarely do i have the patience to play enough ranked to get there. But i dont think that's such a good idea.

Open decklists on tournaments is so weird to me. These are the best players in Gwent, right? Then why make them play in a format easier than standard, where you dont know your opponent's deck?

That's why you never see Yrdens, Ignis, Regis (prior to nerf) on tournaments, as they're true value is in the surprise. And that's why tournament decks are so reliable and boring, and why you have to watch like 10 matches and get 1 where something exciting's happening, the others are just copies of matches happening in prorank all the time, but the stakes are higher so turns take longer...

I had to look this up since I also found it was weird for tournaments to be like this, it basically turns it into a completely different game.
"It’s to prevent things like in Magic where the top level players share information with each other and have scouts", this seems to be the reason Hearthstone does it.

Unpredictability and adapting on the spot is part of the fun to me, I guess that's why I haven't been much of a tournament watcher.

I only hope the devs don't get their balancing ideas from such a different format.