Open world games are a mistake!

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In video games, an open world is a game mechanic of using a virtual world that the player can explore and approach objectives freely, as opposed to a world with more linear and structured gameplay.[1][2] While games have used open-world designs since the 1980s, the implementation in Grand Theft Auto III (2001) set a standard that has been used since.[3]

-Cyberpunk is a linear and structured gameplay.(1)
-Once you finished the linear and structured gameplay, you lost access to the open world with your character.(2)
-In certain questing, first ones, and last ones, you are restricted to the open world, that means, you can not explore and approach freely.


(1) The linear and structured gameplay of cyberpunk allows you to choose bewteen different approaches of the story, meanwhile you are doing the questing.
(2) You can keep playing if you go back and load from autosave/manualsave/point of no return in game.


Games with open or free-roaming worlds typically lack level structures like walls and locked doors, or the invisible walls in more open areas that prevent the player from venturing beyond them; only at the bounds of an open-world game will players be limited by geographic features like vast oceans or impassible mountains. Players typically do not encounter loading screens common in linear level designs when moving about the game world, with the open-world game using strategic storage and memory techniques to load the game world in a dynamic and seamless manner. Open-world games still enforce many restrictions in the game environment, either because of absolute technical limitations or in-game limitations imposed by a game's linearity.[4]

- Cyberpunk doesnt allow you to go beyond the limited geographic structures, and teleports you back.

While the openness of the game world is an important facet to games featuring open worlds, the main draw of open-world games is about providing the player with autonomy - not so much the freedom to do anything they want in the game (which is nearly impossible with current computing technology), but the ability to choose how to approach the game and its challenges in the order and manner as the player desires while still constrained by gameplay rules.[5] Examples of high level of autonomy in computer games can be found in massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPG) or in single-player games adhering to the open-world concept such as the Fallout series. The main appeal of open-world gameplay is that they provide a simulated reality and allow players to develop their character and its behaviour in the direction and the pace of their own choosing. In these cases, there is often no concrete goal or end to the game, although there may be the main storyline, such as with games like The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim.

-or in single-player games adhering to the open-world concept [...] In these cases, there is often no concrete goal or end to the game, although there may be the main storyline

As before, once you finish the goal, that is finish the main quest, you cant keep playing.


An open world is a level or game designed as nonlinear, open areas with many ways to reach an objective.[6] Some games are designed with both traditional and open-world levels.[7] An open world facilitates greater exploration than a series of smaller levels,[4] or a level with more linear challenges.[8] Reviewers have judged the quality of an open world based on whether there are interesting ways for the player to interact with the broader level when they ignore their main objective.[8] Some games actually use real settings to model an open world, such as New York City.[9]

Reviewers have judged the quality of an open world based on whether there are interesting ways for the player to interact with the broader level when they ignore their main objective.

A major design challenge is to balance the freedom of an open world with the structure of a dramatic storyline.[10] Since players may perform actions that the game designer did not expect,[11] the game's writers must find creative ways to impose a storyline on the player without interfering with their freedom.[12] As such, games with open worlds will sometimes break the game's story into a series of missions, or have a much simpler storyline altogether.[13] Other games instead offer side-missions to the player that do not disrupt the main storyline. Most open-world games make the character a blank slate that players can project their own thoughts onto, although several games such as Landstalker: The Treasures of King Nole offer more character development and dialogue.[4] Writing in 2005, David Braben described the narrative structure of current video games as "little different to the stories of those Harold Lloyd films of the 1920s", and considered genuinely open-ended stories to be the "Holy Grail we are looking for in fifth generation gaming".[14] Gameplay designer Manveer Heir, who worked on Mass Effect 3 and Mass Effect Andromeda for Electronic Arts, said that there are difficulties in the design of an open-world game since it is difficult to predict how players will approach solving gameplay challenges offered by a design, in contrast to a linear progression, and needs to be a factor in the game's development from its onset. Heir opined that some of the critical failings of Andromeda were due to the open world being added late in development.[15]

A major design challenge is to balance the freedom of an open world with the structure of a dramatic storyline [...] the game's writers must find creative ways to impose a storyline on the player without interfering with their freedom.

Some open-world games, to guide the player towards major story events, do not provide the world's entire map at the start of the game, but require the player to complete a task to obtain part of that map, often identifying missions and points of interest when they view the map. This has been derogatorily referred to as "Ubisoft towers", as this mechanic was promoted in Ubisoft's Assassin's Creed series (the player climbing a large tower as to observe the landscape around it and identify waypoints nearby) and reused in other Ubisoft games, including Far Cry, Might & Magic X: Legacy and Watch Dogs. Other games that use this approach include Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor and The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild.[16][17][18][19]

Ok here is the discussion point, the line that separates open world from single player adventure with some ingredients of open world games. In this way, CP is not mainly an open world game, but we can consider, it has some aspects of what a real open world game is, but yet, doesnt accomplish the requirements to being a full based open world game, as GTA.

Games with open worlds typically give players infinite lives or continues, although some force the player to start from the beginning should they die too many times.[4] There is also a risk that players may get lost as they explore an open world; thus designers sometimes try to break the open world into manageable sections.[20] The scope of open-world games requires the developer to fully detail every possible section of the world the player may be able to access, unless methods like procedural generation are used. The design process, due to its scale, may leave numerous game world glitches, bugs, incomplete sections, or other irregularities that players may find and potentially take advantage of.[21] The term "open world jank" has been used to apply to games where the incorporation of the open world gameplay elements may be poor, incomplete, or unnecessary to the game itself such that these glitches and bugs become more apparent, though are generally not game-breaking, such as the case for No Man's Sky near its launch.[21]

Open world, sandbox games, and emergent gameplay[edit]
The mechanics of open-world games are often overlapped with ideas of sandbox games, but these are considered different terms. Whereas open world refers to the lack of limits for the player's exploration of the game's world, sandbox games are based on the ability of giving the player tools for creative freedom within the game to approach objectives, if such objectives are present. For example, Microsoft Flight Simulator is an open-world game as one can fly anywhere within the mapped world, but is not considered a sandbox game as there is little creative aspects brought into the game.[22]

Whereas open world refers to the lack of limits for the player's exploration of the game's world, sandbox games are based on the ability of giving the player tools for creative freedom within the game to approach objectives.

You do have limits in Cyberpunk, you cant go beyond the map, and once you finish the game, you cant keep playing it.

2020, new game, will be the next gen of open world, and then we have this thing, that doesnt acomplish the first and most basic rule of an open world, once you finish the storyline you cant keep playing, the only way of keep playing the game, is load a checkpoint back in the past.

Forget about the bugs if you want, and you dont like that approach.
Forget about NPCs if you want to call anything that you can interact a "sandbox", if you want to close all terms in a box, then lets be fair in both sides of the logical conclusion, if you cant keep playing the game once you finish it, then this is not an open world, loading a checkpoint is not keep playing it, because you lost loot, and skill points, or whatever progress you make on the endings.

Cyberpunk is not an open world by definition, is not sandbox, is a single player adventure game.

Are the open world a mistake? thats subjective, but by definition, cyberpunk is not openworld.
 
At least as far as Cyberpunk 2077 is concerned, sure there are instances where the open world does add quite a bit and is the right approach however it seems that many in the AAA sphere simply go open world because it is the reigning trend at the time and never truly leverage the strength of an open world while inheriting all of it's weaknesses. Woo lets be backseat game designers and tell CDPR how they fucked up! Lets Go!

Now I am not saying open world games are bad but they do come with their own set of strengths and weaknesses and unless you know how to utilize those strengths all you are left with is the weaknesses.

To me Breath of the Wild is a good example of an open world game done right, sure it has it's weaknesses and areas where it could be stronger but as far as open world games go it really is the game that truly gets what makes a great open world. The world is just one big open playground with many meaningful ways to interact with it and hazards to overcome, create a bridge with a fallen log, roll a boulder down the hill to take out enemies, go snowboarding on your shield, lightning storms that get attracted to your metal weapons but you can also use this to your advantage against enemies, there are so many systems at play that make interacting with the world and it's environment a treat, you stand at the top of the world and see objects and places in the distance that you want to explore and if you see something glowing on a mountain then there is probably something cool to find.

Cyberpunk on the other hand there really isn't anything to interact with in the world at large outside of the quests and missions that take place in enclosed spaces, your view is constantly blocked by towering skyscrapers and neon signs and in the end the game just feels like you are following icons on a map ticking off content on your content checklist, there is a reason people dislike Ubisoft sandbox games and to be honest Cyberpunk 2077 falls into many of the same traps, sure the side content is a little more thought out in Cyberpunk 2077 than in your average Ubisoft game but even then they really don't feel all that worthwhile. Sure we get cars to drive but apart from getting from A to B and being somewhat of a vanity item for our character what do they really add to the game? Apart from 1 racing side quest that is honestly pretty rubbish (do yourself a favour and don't look behind in these sections) there are no missions that actually utilize these vehicles, no high speed car chases where you are the driver, piss off the cops and they just instantly spawn at your location but lose aggro as soon as you get one block away, the only high speed car chases this game has are the scripted ones where the AI drives and you hang out the side shooting with a gun and you really don't need an open world for these sections.

In the end it feels like Cyberpunk 2077 tries to stretch itself too thin, too much effort is spent filling the map with side content that the main content does not get enough attention and fails to truly shine, I honestly think an approach somewhat like the Witcher 2 or Deus Ex with smaller hub areas would have been a much better fit for this game rather than one big wide open map, more effort could be spent on making the interactions and content within these areas feel more significant while cutting out a lot of the clutter.

I know people are probably going to tell me that Witcher 3 was open world and while I do think the Witcher 3 was good despite it's open world I still think that the Witcher 2 had a far better story structure and felt a lot more focused in this regard. I don't begrudge CDPR for trying new things but I do think the strength of their games lies more in the writing and story rather than the gameplay and openness of their worlds.

Rather than pointing out anything you wrote in the thread, I strongly disagree about the title. Open world games are the only type of games I really enjoy, because they grant the level of immersion that linear games do not provide. You get the feeling of actually switching to another world than the one you are living in this reality. This is the ultimate gaming experience for me. Cyberpunk provides this sensation. It was only unplayable before the first patch, but after that there is nothing that bad really.
 
Rather than pointing out anything you wrote in the thread, I strongly disagree about the title. Open world games are the only type of games I really enjoy, because they grant the level of immersion that linear games do not provide. You get the feeling of actually switching to another world than the one you are living in this reality. This is the ultimate gaming experience for me. Cyberpunk provides this sensation. It was only unplayable before the first patch, but after that there is nothing that bad really.

Yeah but if you only fixate on the title of the thread then you kind of missed the point in which case why even bother responding at all? Besides whenever I hear people go on about the "immersion" in video games I always get flashbacks to the movie the Castle, don't worry it is an old Australian movie, you probably would not have seen it.


Of course I am sure the point I am making here will probably go over your head so I will explain it for you in simple terms since I am such a nice person like that. Basically the implication of the clip is that the guy does not truly know what the word serenity means, he just likes saying it because it sounds like a nice word and something a smart person might say, there is even a part later on in the film where the point becomes even more obvious where he is still going on about the serenity while a bug zapper crackles and pops in the background, basically what I am saying is that if you replace the word "serenity" with "immersion" it kind of reminds me of that scene.
 
This went from
"Open World is a Mistake"
To
"What Defines an Open World"
to
"Open World? Or Sandbox?"
to Finally
"Does it Exist in my Head or was it all a Lie?" Christ lol

I guess to throw in my non Existent Eddies into the Pile, Cyberpunk 2077 is an Open World RPG. By Definition I guess, but to Standards and My Personal Opinion, it's a Very Shitty One at that. It has Elements to me that don't Mix well At All. A Linear Story Line that gives the Illusion of Choice in an Open World Setting built for a RPG.
Kind of like CDPR gives you the Controller for the Story, only for it to turned out isn't even Connected. For me in my Non Professional Opinion, Cyberpunk 2077 isn't really that Great of an RPG, Least to what they Achieved in Witcher 3. The world in it though is Super Kickass and I Love it, Christ I'm more Pissed off at CDPR for Wasting such a Great World.
Though seriously, if I have to use my Imaginations to Remotely get some Fun out of a Video Game then damn, their doing something wrong here Honestly.
Either way, Cyberpunk 2077 is a pretty Rad Open World Game, just such a shame they Wasted the Open World on a Linear Gameplay imo.

HOPEFULLY, they fix it down the line. How Much of it can they Fix? Fuck if i know. They can sure as hell fix the Overall Mechanical Bugs and so on but Story and Gameplay Wise? Not too sure, what more can you do to a game that's Already Released? How much can you Change?? Least that's Possible in a Game Development Standards.
I think a lot of it is just we want some sort of an Answer from CDPR, Something. That'll tell us What. The. Fuck. Happened. "Why Overly Promise and Under Achieve??" "Can you Fix this??" "Can you Do More With this??" and my Favorite "Can you put back the Features You Cut???" Wrote that one myself.

The longer we wait, the more we start coming up with Conspiracy Theories on CDPR lol but I guess we just have to wait. As much as it Sucks lol

Open - decisions matter, nothing its closed, haven't a 'finish',...are opened. The door is open, you can pass - to where?! Etc. So simples.
 
As far as open map content goes, GTA / RDR II are still taking the cake.

While I admit that night city is a breathtaking piece of art, it is void of meaningful interactions in many places and does not really take advantage of that open map. Most quests are very focused on small areas. There is no good incentive to traverse the map via car or motorcycle.

I imagine what CDPR could have accomplished in scope and polish if they had more of a Mass Effect / Dragon Age approach to their level design.

But maybe they add more car races and police chases later in the game. Or quests that utilize the scope of the world...
 
What is a mistake is the Ubisoftization of open world games. I don't need a shitton of busywork. Give me cerebral things to do and a true sandbox approach to missions. Tell me what my objective is and let me do the legwork. If I have to escort someone out of a building and I somehow manage to ram through the front door with a car and successfully make it through the building with it and run over everyone and take the hostage out inside it, let me do it. If I manage to disable all security or sneak in throgh ventilation shafts, let me do it.

Less is more. What's important is to put in systems. Make it dark sometimes, but give me the option to buy smartgoggles or cyberoptics that I can customize with night vision, infrared, thermal vision... make enemies actually be able to listen to me breaking beer bottles under my feet so that I will actually pay attention to my surroundings and maybe consider buying stealth cyberware that actually works.

The problem is one size fits all mentality and the belief that just because the developers think something they programmed is so awesome everyone should experience it the same way. No. Hide things. Make everyone feel special and their playstyles and choices catered to, because that's what an RPG is supposed to be. And make the game 15 hours long only if need be. Stop it with the brain numbing gameplay loops of busywork.
 
In video games, an open world is a game mechanic of using a virtual world that the player can explore and approach objectives freely, as opposed to a world with more linear and structured gameplay.[1][2] While games have used open-world designs since the 1980s, the implementation in Grand Theft Auto III (2001) set a standard that has been used since.[3]

-Cyberpunk is a linear and structured gameplay.(1)
-Once you finished the linear and structured gameplay, you lost access to the open world with your character.(2)
-In certain questing, first ones, and last ones, you are restricted to the open world, that means, you can not explore and approach freely.


(1) The linear and structured gameplay of cyberpunk allows you to choose bewteen different approaches of the story, meanwhile you are doing the questing.
(2) You can keep playing if you go back and load from autosave/manualsave/point of no return in game.


Games with open or free-roaming worlds typically lack level structures like walls and locked doors, or the invisible walls in more open areas that prevent the player from venturing beyond them; only at the bounds of an open-world game will players be limited by geographic features like vast oceans or impassible mountains. Players typically do not encounter loading screens common in linear level designs when moving about the game world, with the open-world game using strategic storage and memory techniques to load the game world in a dynamic and seamless manner. Open-world games still enforce many restrictions in the game environment, either because of absolute technical limitations or in-game limitations imposed by a game's linearity.[4]

- Cyberpunk doesnt allow you to go beyond the limited geographic structures, and teleports you back.

While the openness of the game world is an important facet to games featuring open worlds, the main draw of open-world games is about providing the player with autonomy - not so much the freedom to do anything they want in the game (which is nearly impossible with current computing technology), but the ability to choose how to approach the game and its challenges in the order and manner as the player desires while still constrained by gameplay rules.[5] Examples of high level of autonomy in computer games can be found in massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPG) or in single-player games adhering to the open-world concept such as the Fallout series. The main appeal of open-world gameplay is that they provide a simulated reality and allow players to develop their character and its behaviour in the direction and the pace of their own choosing. In these cases, there is often no concrete goal or end to the game, although there may be the main storyline, such as with games like The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim.

-or in single-player games adhering to the open-world concept [...] In these cases, there is often no concrete goal or end to the game, although there may be the main storyline

As before, once you finish the goal, that is finish the main quest, you cant keep playing.


An open world is a level or game designed as nonlinear, open areas with many ways to reach an objective.[6] Some games are designed with both traditional and open-world levels.[7] An open world facilitates greater exploration than a series of smaller levels,[4] or a level with more linear challenges.[8] Reviewers have judged the quality of an open world based on whether there are interesting ways for the player to interact with the broader level when they ignore their main objective.[8] Some games actually use real settings to model an open world, such as New York City.[9]

Reviewers have judged the quality of an open world based on whether there are interesting ways for the player to interact with the broader level when they ignore their main objective.

A major design challenge is to balance the freedom of an open world with the structure of a dramatic storyline.[10] Since players may perform actions that the game designer did not expect,[11] the game's writers must find creative ways to impose a storyline on the player without interfering with their freedom.[12] As such, games with open worlds will sometimes break the game's story into a series of missions, or have a much simpler storyline altogether.[13] Other games instead offer side-missions to the player that do not disrupt the main storyline. Most open-world games make the character a blank slate that players can project their own thoughts onto, although several games such as Landstalker: The Treasures of King Nole offer more character development and dialogue.[4] Writing in 2005, David Braben described the narrative structure of current video games as "little different to the stories of those Harold Lloyd films of the 1920s", and considered genuinely open-ended stories to be the "Holy Grail we are looking for in fifth generation gaming".[14] Gameplay designer Manveer Heir, who worked on Mass Effect 3 and Mass Effect Andromeda for Electronic Arts, said that there are difficulties in the design of an open-world game since it is difficult to predict how players will approach solving gameplay challenges offered by a design, in contrast to a linear progression, and needs to be a factor in the game's development from its onset. Heir opined that some of the critical failings of Andromeda were due to the open world being added late in development.[15]

A major design challenge is to balance the freedom of an open world with the structure of a dramatic storyline [...] the game's writers must find creative ways to impose a storyline on the player without interfering with their freedom.

Some open-world games, to guide the player towards major story events, do not provide the world's entire map at the start of the game, but require the player to complete a task to obtain part of that map, often identifying missions and points of interest when they view the map. This has been derogatorily referred to as "Ubisoft towers", as this mechanic was promoted in Ubisoft's Assassin's Creed series (the player climbing a large tower as to observe the landscape around it and identify waypoints nearby) and reused in other Ubisoft games, including Far Cry, Might & Magic X: Legacy and Watch Dogs. Other games that use this approach include Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor and The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild.[16][17][18][19]

Ok here is the discussion point, the line that separates open world from single player adventure with some ingredients of open world games. In this way, CP is not mainly an open world game, but we can consider, it has some aspects of what a real open world game is, but yet, doesnt accomplish the requirements to being a full based open world game, as GTA.

Games with open worlds typically give players infinite lives or continues, although some force the player to start from the beginning should they die too many times.[4] There is also a risk that players may get lost as they explore an open world; thus designers sometimes try to break the open world into manageable sections.[20] The scope of open-world games requires the developer to fully detail every possible section of the world the player may be able to access, unless methods like procedural generation are used. The design process, due to its scale, may leave numerous game world glitches, bugs, incomplete sections, or other irregularities that players may find and potentially take advantage of.[21] The term "open world jank" has been used to apply to games where the incorporation of the open world gameplay elements may be poor, incomplete, or unnecessary to the game itself such that these glitches and bugs become more apparent, though are generally not game-breaking, such as the case for No Man's Sky near its launch.[21]

Open world, sandbox games, and emergent gameplay[edit]
The mechanics of open-world games are often overlapped with ideas of sandbox games, but these are considered different terms. Whereas open world refers to the lack of limits for the player's exploration of the game's world, sandbox games are based on the ability of giving the player tools for creative freedom within the game to approach objectives, if such objectives are present. For example, Microsoft Flight Simulator is an open-world game as one can fly anywhere within the mapped world, but is not considered a sandbox game as there is little creative aspects brought into the game.[22]

Whereas open world refers to the lack of limits for the player's exploration of the game's world, sandbox games are based on the ability of giving the player tools for creative freedom within the game to approach objectives.

You do have limits in Cyberpunk, you cant go beyond the map, and once you finish the game, you cant keep playing it.

2020, new game, will be the next gen of open world, and then we have this thing, that doesnt acomplish the first and most basic rule of an open world, once you finish the storyline you cant keep playing, the only way of keep playing the game, is load a checkpoint back in the past.

Forget about the bugs if you want, and you dont like that approach.
Forget about NPCs if you want to call anything that you can interact a "sandbox", if you want to close all terms in a box, then lets be fair in both sides of the logical conclusion, if you cant keep playing the game once you finish it, then this is not an open world, loading a checkpoint is not keep playing it, because you lost loot, and skill points, or whatever progress you make on the endings.

Cyberpunk is not an open world by definition, is not sandbox, is a single player adventure game.

Are the open world a mistake? thats subjective, but by definition, cyberpunk is not openworld.

Glad to see you finally acknowledge what an open world game actually is. Totally fine you don't think CP is one.
 
I think it's more about the problem with lack of ability to scale up mechanics than anything else.

I think we're still in that same era that 3D games were when first 3D games started emerging like Doom, Quake, Golden Eye and so on... but most of the games in 3D were just simply terrible, both graphically and gameplay wise.

It's the similar kind of shift with open world games now, where instead of having all the assets loaded into the game and executing game flawlessly, you have these bottlenecks that prevent you creating massive open cities with a ton of citizens. GTA 5 was able to do decent job hiding the fact the game barely renders anything by a clever tricks that Cyberpunk wasn't able to replicate equally, at least initially on launch.

I would imagine open world games to be as easy to make as the modern day 2D platformers in 20-30 years where basically you can have 10 people create a complete game with 100 quests and objectives and a story, but it's definitely not today. Too much processing is required to upkeep the whole game together and keep loading in and out assets while your character is barely moving. It's too much management just for the sake of maintaining this illusion of a complete map.

This was the case with 2D games as well, where for example in NES games you had the right wide of the level constantly uploading new tiles and it was constantly glitching and being easy to detect. Modern games are just able to replicate entire 2D worlds in such fluidity that the computer never needs to constantly read small chunks of data from ahead and delete from behind, like in Shovel Knight.

Just take a look of how many visual glitches happen in just 20 seconds of this clip, the objects appear green before they fully emerge, the black wall in end of level appears with delay once you're moving, and so on.

And see how little assets are glitching in similar clip, which is just upgrade of 1 generation and few more visual tweaks.



It's just that generally open world games aren't really there yet where they are easy to make and require a ton of research and tweaks to make them at least possible in theory to work perfectly.

Saying that open world is mistake is kinda saying like Mario 3 being 2D side-scroller was a mistake because it wasn't perfectly smooth in it's execution.

I don't think there's nothing generally lost when making world gigantic and exploreable, it just requires similar approach that 2D games changing to the 3D environment did, the amount of content needs to be upgraded as well.

Should Mario 64 never have been made because you'd ultimately lose some clever platforming in favor of just being able to change direction?

If Mario 64 was never made, we've never witness such beatiful games like Mario Odyssey or Dark Souls.

These leaps need to be made for gaming to progress, and I'm at least glad CDPR took the risk of creating this large of a scope rather than try to stick the same formula games like Deux Ex did.
 
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I agree that open worlds could be a mistake. I keep telling my friends that games would be better if they had smaller maps but more content. With that said, I still enjoy the vastness and detail of these maps.

If you played Metal Gear TPP you have probably felt the emptiness. Similar missions (things to do) with little, to no exploration or discovery (fun). I actually enjoyed Death Stranding more and that game also feels empty.

Assassin's Creed has gotten boring over time the last time it was fun was Black Flag. Farcry is never good enough yet Farcry Primal was a short fun game.

Bloodborne is one of my favorite games and it's NOT much of an open world but there's so much mystery and FUN to be had, it left me wanting more.

The Witcher 3 has a very nice balance, from exploration, lore, mechanics, to beauty and charm. Yes... the following of tracks gets a bit repetitive.

RDR 2 is different but also NOT that much fun, I like taking the racehorses after winning a race, or taking the loot from robbers after they open the safe there is so much to do in this game. The problem I had was with the fast pace of the game. I just want to chill, and the game wants me to do chores.

GTA 5 although decent for its time is way too exaggerated and the story was not that good. BTW, what is up with Rockstar giving us the money after the story is done and that 10 horse 10 car limit has to go.

Horizon is just annoying. I didn't complete Elder scrolls - others are just OK

I think Cyberpunk although fun, lacks immersion but the game is still fun. I honestly couldn't bare the sight of GTA 5 after playing Cyberpunk.

I appreciate the hard work that goes into the games, these are just opinions. Nothing will ever be perfect so don't set your expectations too high chooms. I will be playing Cyberpunk 2077 alongside Elden Ring pretty soon. "That's damn good" - SNAKE

Something to remember is that CDPR delivered with the Witcher 3 DLC so let us hope for the best in 2022, see you at the Afterlife.
Cyber.JPG
 
I think,open world games sre subjective...a big map full of marker points but not much to do or interact,or small open world areas with lot of stuff and interactable stuff to do?they both have their share of good and bad things...it is all for the player to like it or not...sometimes despite loving the huge open worlds i get bored.They still have to find a balance between content and discovery.In that aspect,Breath of the Wild checks the mark very well...i mean,sometimes i get bored,but i still go there from time to time just roaming around amd making mi head adventures.Same as Skyrim...but becouse the world feels believable...but i dont think huge open worlds are a mistake...is just like i said,it depends from player to player.
 
Would 2077 have been better as a hub game? Maybe, maybe no. Witcher 2 had lots of issues, so did Mankind Divided.

I think it would have been less ambitious, for sure. I would have liked more City, less Badlands and maybe a couple smaller hubs for 2077, myself.

But open-world, the idea itself, is very natural and very much a TTRPG thing. Semi-open-world anyway. The challenge is to keep it fresh and engaging while encouraging exploration. You're never going to make your audience perfectly happy, especially the bigger and more ambitious the world.

Price we pay for ambition and development.
 

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I kinda hate sandbox games too. They feel like a trekking sim, and I prefer to do that IRL
I kinda dislike sandbox open world games, too. Or, at the very least, I consider them incredibly overrated.
However, I do love sandbox games like Civilization, Crusader Kings or Mount & Blade.
 
Would 2077 have been better as a hub game? Maybe, maybe no. Witcher 2 had lots of issues, so did Mankind Divided.
With the parts that are here; Probably. Seems like all the parts were being constructed without any vision on how they would snap together. This is common, far too common unfortunately. The game is a victim of it's own projection(s). Had it not been hyped to high heaven; many of the complaints would still ring true but they wouldn't have reached a fever pitch. Perhaps being badgered by fixers, specifically Regina, is an issue that would most likely grate anyone regardless of who made this game or how hyped/stealth it's marketing was.
I think it would have been less ambitious, for sure. I would have liked more City, less Badlands and maybe a couple smaller hubs for 2077, myself.
Yes.
But open-world, the idea itself, is very natural and very much a TTRPG thing. Semi-open-world anyway. The challenge is to keep it fresh and engaging while encouraging exploration. You're never going to make your audience perfectly happy, especially the bigger and more ambitious the world.
Something as simple as a removing/editing few minor dialogue sequences in the early primary quest line, ie "you're dying, kid.", can fix quite a bit. That being said, a source of this game's issues are the consistency of missteps. One, two, hell... even several can easily be forgiven. I don't say the following as a complaint or 'waaah, muh video game is ruined', but for the purposes of noting what I feel are considerable design issues.

I let a lot go in the early game, and I think a lot of other people did aswell, but design problems just don't let up.

The police and ped lack of Ai was something I shelved as a concern initially... and then Regina wouldn't stop calling me. For some odd reason; Wakako and Sebastian are sending me out to go rough up their own people. Fixers are trying to sell me their used vehicles, for some reason, for an absurd markup when you would easily accept an automated car delearship exist - just one, one big monopoly, with an Ai that runs the joint similar to Delamain. *I would have done this in an entirely different manner though. It's not GTA, it doesn't need to pretend or please GTA sensibilities at all either. The following could simply be taste, but for RPG purposes I think it's reasonable; You don't need twenty different cars. One or two cars you own, you can steal cars but not keep them, with deep customization that could serve either direct gameplay or roleplay purposes*

Delamain is an automated taxi service, but you can't use his services at any point, nor can you even utilize the taxi you earn from his daunting (seriously, man, shut the hell up) quest in an automated manner. I don't care much about rail system, but I can see the appeal... if it didn't go through buildings - as do some of the flying vehicles. Seriously - there is a flying freight craft that flies right through, if I remember correctly, V's apartment complex.

The cars, though performing 'better' in 1.3, drive like different tonnage refrigerators. You, some nobody street punk (who may or may not have actually been a former high level corporate hitman) just knocked over the biggest corporation for their most prized possession and allegedly killed the 120+ yr old company bigwig everyone refers to as "the Emperor", but they put in no effort to hunt you at any time and the only plausible deniability CDPR offers is Vic saying "ah, yeah, your face in blur on cameras...convenient, eh?"

There are some consequences to your actions...but nothing that isn't set in a scripted manner. The stories won't change one bit, and the open world response is only in predetermined locations. Near some mega building I wiped out Valentinos. Later the police were there cleaning up, later still shops sprung up. Cool... but now you can see why gangs won't stray from these location much. Okay, fine, it's cool but still feels staged. That ones easy, nothing groundbreaking nor immersion breaking. It's just there really.

I'll give you an example of something more subtle, more maturely delivered, that surprised me and then collapsed under testing.

If you knock off Jotaro Shobo before the Judy sidequests, a dialogue option pops up when confronting Woodman that scares him into spilling the beans - avoiding the 21 questions bit. However; if you kill Woodman, if you maintain the greatest level of stealth possible, if you refrain from harming a single enemy or rousing a single brow - it matters not when you meet Maiko. She says the same thing, the same dialogue options are offered to you, even the options to threaten her doesn't prompt any kind of "ya know, like I did to Woodman" and your actions earlier have no impact here. Nor does Judy acknowledge you having killed Woodman, and you're not offered the option to hide or reveal this happening... So, is the lack of visibility on player choices having effect really a sign of maturity, or simply inconsistency?

No random encounters. None. Not a single one. Period. No elaboration necessary.

While I think the *working parts we have might serve a hub world better, it's kind of moot when you consider how repetitious the missteps are. Slather on a heap of persistent bugs and you have yourself a grade A disaster that obfuscates much of the genius work on display. I still managed to find redeeming qualities in this game with this many fuckups. Part of that is my own bias toward the genre, sure, but I did find real joy in some of the side quests and the combat is...ehh, it's enough.

There are pearls here, some downright brilliant stuff if present, but I wouldn't fault anyone for not finding them in the pigshit.
Price we pay for ambition and development.
Ambition is a thing in itself to be appreciated, but when it does or does not deliver matters. I'm not saying what was presented should discount the efforts and goals, mind you. However; 'A for effort' is a suitable consolation of recognition, while the material result is what gets checked on the board at the end of the day.
 
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I kinda dislike sandbox open world games, too. Or, at the very least, I consider them incredibly overrated.
However, I do love sandbox games like Civilization, Crusader Kings or Mount & Blade.
There are exceptions, of course. I love TW3, the Ezio Assassin's Creeds... but those are exceptions due to their beauty
 

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There are exceptions, of course. I love TW3, the Ezio Assassin's Creeds... but those are exceptions due to their beauty
I love them too, but I wouldn't call them sandbox open world games. Open world in those games is a theme park. And I think theme park style works infinitely better for story-driven games (set in the open world), whether they're RPGs or action adventures.
 
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I like half-open worlds with hubs that open up when the story proceeds, eg in Witcher 2 or the Dragon Age or Mass Effect games. There is still a lot of freedom, but you don't feel overwhelmed, because you can't go everywhere at once. Witcher 3 is basically the only fully open world game where I've never experienced open world fatigue (if you ignore the Skellige chests). The world is beautiful, the quests superb, the beasts you encounter are a welcome challenge (especially if you stumble into higher level monster lairs at higher difficulty) and I always loved finding a new vendor in order to get a new Gwent card.

Another exception is the extremely small but dense open world of the Yakuza series. In fact, if you want a city that feels real and offers a lot of freedom without tiring you out, Kamurochô is probably one of the best examples.

As for all the other open worlds - sometimes the fatigue sets in earlier, sometimes later, but in the end I always get tired of cleaning icons off the map. I'm currently playing HZD and while the world is beautiful and I really love the machine encounters, the tracking back and forth for sidequests that are narratively so-so is starting to tire me out.
 
I like half-open worlds with hubs that open up when the story proceeds, eg in Witcher 2 or the Dragon Age or Mass Effect games. There is still a lot of freedom, but you don't feel overwhelmed, because you can't go everywhere at once. Witcher 3 is basically the only fully open world game where I've never experienced open world fatigue (if you ignore the Skellige chests). The world is beautiful, the quests superb, the beasts you encounter are a welcome challenge (especially if you stumble into higher level monster lairs at higher difficulty) and I always loved finding a new vendor in order to get a new Gwent card.

Another exception is the extremely small but dense open world of the Yakuza series. In fact, if you want a city that feels real and offers a lot of freedom without tiring you out, Kamurochô is probably one of the best examples.

As for all the other open worlds - sometimes the fatigue sets in earlier, sometimes later, but in the end I always get tired of cleaning icons off the map. I'm currently playing HZD and while the world is beautiful and I really love the machine encounters, the tracking back and forth for sidequests that are narratively so-so is starting to tire me out.
This. Semi-open worlds are the best open-world games IMO
 
Do you guys remember the many journalistic outlets that were saying that this game is a "slow burn?"

Damn, the world we live in.
 
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