Opinion on Fixer "unlocking gigs" process 1.5

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My issue is with pacing and how it fits in the lore. In every SP open world rpg one of the most important/difficult things to design is balancing of Freedom, Character Progression/Difficulty and Immersion.
You need to lead player to quests and encounters to the player in immersive fashion, but also "gate" harder ones in a way that feels organic, intutive, while still making the world feel open and inviting to explore ( so there aren't constant "roadblocks").
CDPR really does this exceptionally poorly, both with levels/difficulty and with quests.
"Old system" of gigs makes V feel like you're the greatest/only merc in town, all the fixers at your beck and call, constantly monitoring you and giving you gigs at your convenience.
They went too far with making access to content as convenient as possible ( skipping introduction to fixers altogether, and "low level" quests) so it strips the world of connection to the player and turns into a giant checklist.
Now they added "progression" of a sort, but in a very simplistic and inorganic way, without really fixing core issue. ( I guess this shows there are no shortcuts to good design)
By having first segment more linear, with a few gigs and direct dalogue with fixers, it serves a narrative/worldbuilding purpose of introduction, and progression.
Then after this, majority of gigs becomes accessible ( 75% or so, in the area) and player can simply ask for specific type of gig in any location, nearest to your own: this is where you give the player more agency and freedom, while reducing backtracking. This is also good way to have more accessible difficulty ( so if you're specialized into stealth, you can ask for those type of gigs first)
Then last, after you've done those, fixers will call you and offer you more complex gigs ( like Sinnerman).
I think this is a valid criticism of the system how it was before and agree the new one isn't right either. For me it's not just the sense of progression that was missing but the clusterdness of phone calls and map icons that was an issue. As you say made V feel like the hottest shit in town. So the way to get calls/accept missions should also be a concern fixing this
 
In fact, like for cars, no problem (even cheap) :)
But for example, the Wakako's katana, if we read the description "it has been gathering dust for ages in Wakako's office...", I conclude that it is a (very) special "gift" for someone who brought her a lot money/reputation (by completing all her GIGs with success). So the fact that she would simply sell this katana won't really make sense (or maybe yes, but at a "very prohibitive" price, let's say 150K eddies).
Important factor being that player / their V would have option not to have them. Realistically though, once items / reward mechanics like these are introduced, it's probably very hard to take them away and these are more or less important for some players.

Cost of rewards, that can present a problem as more expensive item gets, it sort of values worth of V but, then it could work also. I mean how many gigs for that 150k? So from fixers point of view this could preset an opportunity for them to squeeze all those eddies they paid back from V to maximize their profits and that might reflect to even further for something subtle, like if V sells that iconic 150k katana, it would turn out to be like 15k katana. :LOL:

Huge contributing factor to my positive experience with game before this was that my V was like a pizza guy working for a company doing deliveries. Different skill set but essentially just one mercenary among others and I never took phone calls from fixers and number of jobs available making my mercenary anyone special but just someone who was possibly option to get gig done. Like pizza guy gets a call, it's whoever is available, that doesn't mean that particular pizza guy is any more important than others. That build towards freedom to figure my V as someone who doesn't really give a fuck about what fixers think, he is into it for the money.

Reward item things, that they are so personal. I'd rather had it play out like access to something via their contacts. That being a weapons dealer with some special stock that would come available in the Afterlife.

I think this is a valid criticism of the system how it was before and agree the new one isn't right either. For me it's not just the sense of progression that was missing but the clusterdness of phone calls and map icons that was an issue. As you say made V feel like the hottest shit in town. So the way to get calls/accept missions should also be a concern fixing this
There's also that not everyone had that problem. I recall seeing few posts about lack of progression but I never realized what it truly meant before I saw how CDPR solution, what we have now.

What this means on higher level:

People go to gym and it's not only very convenient, but also practical necessity to be able to perform exercises in different order. It's what equipment is available and to keep it fun, do things bit differently sometimes to prevent it becoming something too banal.

Golf. It's convenient sometimes to do half a course, or even third and not necessarily 1 to 6 but intervals from 3 to 18. Or maybe someone wants to practice just bunkers and it's not very effective way to do that to play entire course but just focus on those.

Something as simple as jogging. It can be very practical to find a familiar route and time that. After a while it can also be very convenient to find alternate routes within time budget.

Those may give us something to work with when we think of a difference between a distraction, a hobby and a habit. It's easy to note that some things can be all of those but yet if you think game design, some designs work towards just one.

So what we had before, was it a compromise or was it trying to something new or something unfinished. Regardless, it allowed experimenting and what we have now, while welcomed by some is like a huge red flag just because people are different.

It's a pity really as writing, how much GIG's can contribute to world building and that world they created actually and stories actually manage pass the mark of: Did this work add to understanding about the real world and if user can continue that journey by reading relevant non fiction. It's always that people pick up different things from novels, movies, games, it's that there's window of opportunity, the rest is up from individuals.


CokyRustler didn't answer for my question about history, so I'm left with very little information here, but Occams razor is that: Considering this isn't their first game, they have had despite very thin catalogue, much data in a form of user feedback collected by various methods, like any company, this is most viable move form them to secure sales of future expansions. They know needs of their core audience and secure their income for meeting those needs. In other words, problem we discuss about here they were trying to solve, might be different than problem CDPR perceived they had to solve.
 
Important factor being that player / their V would have option not to have them. Realistically though, once items / reward mechanics like these are introduced, it's probably very hard to take them away and these are more or less important for some players.

Cost of rewards, that can present a problem as more expensive item gets, it sort of values worth of V but, then it could work also. I mean how many gigs for that 150k? So from fixers point of view this could preset an opportunity for them to squeeze all those eddies they paid back from V to maximize their profits and that might reflect to even further for something subtle, like if V sells that iconic 150k katana, it would turn out to be like 15k katana. :LOL:

Huge contributing factor to my positive experience with game before this was that my V was like a pizza guy working for a company doing deliveries. Different skill set but essentially just one mercenary among others and I never took phone calls from fixers and number of jobs available making my mercenary anyone special but just someone who was possibly option to get gig done. Like pizza guy gets a call, it's whoever is available, that doesn't mean that particular pizza guy is any more important than others. That build towards freedom to figure my V as someone who doesn't really give a fuck about what fixers think, he is into it for the money.

Reward item things, that they are so personal. I'd rather had it play out like access to something via their contacts. That being a weapons dealer with some special stock that would come available in the Afterlife.


There's also that not everyone had that problem. I recall seeing few posts about lack of progression but I never realized what it truly meant before I saw how CDPR solution, what we have now.

What this means on higher level:

People go to gym and it's not only very convenient, but also practical necessity to be able to perform exercises in different order. It's what equipment is available and to keep it fun, do things bit differently sometimes to prevent it becoming something too banal.

Golf. It's convenient sometimes to do half a course, or even third and not necessarily 1 to 6 but intervals from 3 to 18. Or maybe someone wants to practice just bunkers and it's not very effective way to do that to play entire course but just focus on those.

Something as simple as jogging. It can be very practical to find a familiar route and time that. After a while it can also be very convenient to find alternate routes within time budget.

Those may give us something to work with when we think of a difference between a distraction, a hobby and a habit. It's easy to note that some things can be all of those but yet if you think game design, some designs work towards just one.

So what we had before, was it a compromise or was it trying to something new or something unfinished. Regardless, it allowed experimenting and what we have now, while welcomed by some is like a huge red flag just because people are different.

It's a pity really as writing, how much GIG's can contribute to world building and that world they created actually and stories actually manage pass the mark of: Did this work add to understanding about the real world and if user can continue that journey by reading relevant non fiction. It's always that people pick up different things from novels, movies, games, it's that there's window of opportunity, the rest is up from individuals.


CokyRustler didn't answer for my question about history, so I'm left with very little information here, but Occams razor is that: Considering this isn't their first game, they have had despite very thin catalogue, much data in a form of user feedback collected by various methods, like any company, this is most viable move form them to secure sales of future expansions. They know needs of their core audience and secure their income for meeting those needs. In other words, problem we discuss about here they were trying to solve, might be different than problem CDPR perceived they had to solve.
I agree with Cokyrustler in the general criticism of the gig design and for the parameters he mentions CDPR failed to balance: Freedom, Character Progression/Difficulty and Immersion, specifically on the incorporation of gigs with the rest of the game/our character.
I think the reviews of players now of the previous system and the present one aren't enough to take a step back and look at the whole system and how it could be different. I think OP is talking on this dimension, not so glued to the only 2 option we saw materialize. Problems of the first version:
. No progression with fixers and their available gigs that would serve as an introduction to them and to V's entrance into the merc work.
. Reality of the map's clusterdness and incessant calls throughout town because call happens if V is near gig not on vehicle.
This version was especially bad for first playthrough players because we don't know the gigs, we just become bombed with stuff to do we don't know. Was only on further playthroughs player could antecipate what to do and what to ignore (if 1st playthrough was a near 100% one)

Problems with second version:
. there is only one way to go through a fixer's gigs (important for roleplaying and some gigs done before others/side mission have some nuanced differences)
. Can't reject some and do others of the same fixer.
 
Well technically it made no sense really how the game handled fixer jobs pre patch 1.5. When aproaching certain areas your fixer suddenly called you and gave you a job in the neighbourhood. Now its at least limited to a few spots only and not all over the place.

In my opinion the fixer jobs should be given to V by V contacting the fixer for a job, not the fixer contacting V for a job.

All in all the whole concept of job aquiring makes no sense to me.
 
I agree with Cokyrustler in the general criticism of the gig design and for the parameters he mentions CDPR failed to balance: Freedom, Character Progression/Difficulty and Immersion, specifically on the incorporation of gigs with the rest of the game/our character.
That is, like I wrote assuming that's what CDPR perceived was a problem and that's likely assuming too much to begin with. Driving philosophy here is to compliment players about everything they do, the rest is how people want to spin that in their heads.


But well, for the sake of discussion.
I think the reviews of players now of the previous system and the present one aren't enough to take a step back and look at the whole system and how it could be different. I think OP is talking on this dimension, not so glued to the only 2 option we saw materialize. Problems of the first version:
. No progression with fixers and their available gigs that would serve as an introduction to them and to V's entrance into the merc work.
. Reality of the map's clusterdness and incessant calls throughout town because call happens if V is near gig not on vehicle.
This version was especially bad for first playthrough players because we don't know the gigs, we just become bombed with stuff to do we don't know. Was only on further playthroughs player could antecipate what to do and what to ignore (if 1st playthrough was a near 100% one)
My first playthrough was with day 1 to 1.06 so and I didn't had that problem. So let's forget that we, because there's isn't such thing. I do however believe, like I wrote, that those things presented a problem for group of players.

Problem I see here, is that I had no problem because I played, like I wrote "a pizza guy". That was the premise for me and that worked for me. Now that approach wasn't universal among players and that reflected wider to experience. We can notice that what was the position of our V in setting, set us to two diverging paths, even when we played the same game, same gigs.

So to root issue here, appears to go down to how game delivered it's premise, position of V (we gets a call from fixer because he is available / V gets a call because he new hot merc in town or something). And then V's possible goals, take on fixers, dynamics in Night City even.

Environmental story telling, perhaps more discussions to overhear in the Afterlife, perhaps seeing someone who thought he was hot shit dragged out from there, something to make player wonder if it other fixers, if they were been there in the motel room, were handled the crisis any differently to Dex. Things like that.

Map thing then, more Street Cred thresholds between GIG's becoming available, triggering phone calls and showing up on a map. Say gigs from Padre, some could trigger with Street Cred 35 and most difficult ones with 45, not all at once.

Curious thing from my playthrough with 1.5. Final gig from Rogue came available only after I did Stadium Love, which is not a gig, but a sidejob. So there are other triggers available than what's there with Wakako, Mr. Hands and Co. What else could be used?

Problems with second version:
. there is only one way to go through a fixer's gigs (important for roleplaying and some gigs done before others/side mission have some nuanced differences)
. Can't reject some and do others of the same fixer.

This is tied to my issue. Game is in good enough shape to play, economics work in a way that certain things can be skipped, lot's of other stuff can be simply ignored.

Clever minds tend to find inspiration and applications quite fast as long as given scenario has something worthwhile to work with. Story driven games can be time and attention expensive, but little is gained without compromise. Then perhaps game sometimes even breaks the fourth wall in a manner that doesn't really appear to distract those who look to be submerged. Very user friendly in that manner.

Some pieces are on gigs and practically being able to access pieces is one thing. Then, philosophical barrier, somethings can cover several goals, some just one. Absolutely can't present something that reeks of death. Guess that leaves compiling stuff from gameplay videos, but it is, what it is.
 
Well technically it made no sense really how the game handled fixer jobs pre patch 1.5. When aproaching certain areas your fixer suddenly called you and gave you a job in the neighbourhood. Now its at least limited to a few spots only and not all over the place.

In my opinion the fixer jobs should be given to V by V contacting the fixer for a job, not the fixer contacting V for a job.
And I'd be OK with that. The current sitrep doesn't fix the issue you speak of at all though, it's not a case of "it's a bit better". The same thing happens only now it's more linear than it was before.

Going to the fixer to get jobs and having a conversation about it would be better, particularly if the jobs they offered were dynamically sorted based on the conversation you have (and the options you take). It'd be fine if you then unlocked "later" jobs by completion of earlier ones although I really do think every fixer should have their own "finale" job that's tougher than all the rest (and perhaps in addition to what we have now). A sort of mini-heist thing (not always a heist but you get what I mean, a job with a series of steps for preparation that you can choose various options for, somewhat like GTA V but perhaps less elaborate).
 
That is, like I wrote assuming that's what CDPR perceived was a problem and that's likely assuming too much to begin with. Driving philosophy here is to compliment players about everything they do, the rest is how people want to spin that in their heads.
Honestly I'm giving my opinion on how gig design was handled and what were some cons with both versions. I don't need to try and know what CDPR's intentions were to make a criticism of how it turned out and how it fits with the rest of game. You also don't need to agree with the criticism, but let's not take the conversation to other dimensions. No I didn't mean to say those "problems" I pointed out must be recognized by everyone, they are problems in my point of view.
Now talking about CDPR's intentions I believe the first system was just an incomplete mess when game came out. A lot of fixer calls end on "I'll send you the coordinates", I don't think their reasoning for gameplay was something like the merc has an app that recognizes a gig from fixer in the area and fixer is notified and calls. What I think also is from this rushed version came unexpected good mechanics of freedom to roleplay. This second version might also be a compromise to original vision based on what is compatible with the game now. But we'll never know this part, as you said.
This is tied to my issue. Game is in good enough shape to play, economics work in a way that certain things can be skipped, lot's of other stuff can be simply ignored.

Clever minds tend to find inspiration and applications quite fast as long as given scenario has something worthwhile to work with. Story driven games can be time and attention expensive, but little is gained without compromise. Then perhaps game sometimes even breaks the fourth wall in a manner that doesn't really appear to distract those who look to be submerged. Very user friendly in that manner.
Raising a criticism on one aspect doesn't invalidate other aspects of the game. I love it, and there are things I believe could be better or a lot better. Let's share that around.
 
Honestly I'm giving my opinion on how gig design was handled and what were some cons with both versions. I don't need to try and know what CDPR's intentions were to make a criticism of how it turned out and how it fits with the rest of game. You also don't need to agree with the criticism, but let's not take the conversation to other dimensions. No I didn't mean to say those "problems" I pointed out must be recognized by everyone, they are problems in my point of view.
I was not defending CDPR's decision, just making observation. Nowhere I have said, that critique isn't valid, I also made it very clear that current system is not convenient for me either.

Other dimension here, it doesn't exist. We are not talking about different systems. I see how it makes possible to reward player, unlocking the next gig, little messages accompanied from fixers, unlocking is a reward, compliments are rewards and then there are other rewards in a form of in game rewards. You talk about sense of progress, where you think that comes from?

Now talking about CDPR's intentions I believe the first system was just an incomplete mess when game came out. A lot of fixer calls end on "I'll send you the coordinates", I don't think their reasoning for gameplay was something like the merc has an app that recognizes a gig from fixer in the area and fixer is notified and calls. What I think also is from this rushed version came unexpected good mechanics of freedom to roleplay. This second version might also be a compromise to original vision based on what is compatible with the game now. But we'll never know this part, as you said.
I wrote earlier in topic about how there weren't discussion about interconnectivity in game here. In fact lot's of things weren't discussed because other things were discussed, mostly about "the game that was promised", "it isn't RPG (definition of RPG keeping changing)", "Endings make no sense!"

It's true, no way of knowing what CDPR was planning nor even if things were went differently, handled differently, if that had changed anything. It's safe to say though that chaos creates opportunities and this is what we got.

Raising a criticism on one aspect doesn't invalidate other aspects of the game. I love it, and there are things I believe could be better or a lot better. Let's share that around.
No, you don't understand, but that's okay. Let's leave this at that.
 
I actually like it. It actually gave me the sense that (like you said) it creates progression but it also allows for some story to be added. As in the more gigs you do the more 'control' the fixer gets and the gigs could reflect that kind of a story line where you get increasingly harder gigs which push further into the gang's territory and biz. I did get that sense a bit with the few gigs that had an actual story line and interesting npc's. Could be expanded on further imo
 
They really need to add more gigs to not say unlimited.This would take the game to the next level making it longer , enjoyable and we would be able to explore it more.thwy ignore this amazing idea sadly
 
They really need to add more gigs to not say unlimited.This would take the game to the next level making it longer , enjoyable and we would be able to explore it more.thwy ignore this amazing idea sadly
Maybe because CDPR decided and announced that adding "endless/randomly generated quest" was not a good idea during the game development. But they rather prefered add a fair amount of manually created quests/GIGs.
I suppose expansions will add GIGs too, but like in the base game, GIGs will also be in limited number.

It's just my opinion > endless/randomly generated quests doesn't add fun to a game because they are generally boring as hell, they just fill a lack of content^^
 
I know this is older topic, but.

I prefer the older system. This system has one good thing tho, it forces people to re-visit older areas.
Pre 1.5 most people cleaned the map from "top to bottom" and they didnt have any reason to go back. Now it makes you go back and forth and explore the areas. Lets be hones people miss a lot of stuff at first.

Pre 1.5 i was cleaning the map how i wanted it, but always kept some gigs/NCPD in every location so i had to go back later. Now the game does it for me. Which isnt my prefered way, but im not mad. Imho locking them behind SC was better, more free way. But this way its little different experience.

Best thing would be randomly generated gigs, after you beat all the gigs in game. So you have shit to do for ever :)
 
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