Opinions on PC sound hardware

[volsung]

Opinions on PC sound hardware

Hi.

Like many of you I've been playing games for a while now, and when I started motherboards didn't come with integrated audio chips as I'm sure you remember. Ever since my Sound Blaster Pro I've been purchasing sound cards and never really trusted integrated sound.

Nowadays from what I hear, some of these integrated audio solutions are decent, for instance in Asus motherboards (usually my brand of choice). But I still think they are, on a lesser degree of crappiness, the equivalent of integrated video: no one who wants to do more than email and spreadsheets should put up with it.

I've had an Audigy 2 ZS Platinum Pro for years now, and it still gives me crisp clear sound, even (especially) on 24-bit, 192KHz. Games play with excellent surround sound (5.1 channels), clear voices, deep non-distorted bass and crisp high's. One time my drivers started acting weird and the card produced no sound I tried out the integrated audio and holy shit, perhaps I shouldn't have used generic drivers or had to mess around with equalizer settings but what came out of the same speakers was wretched. Thankfully it was just drivers and my card is still functional.

I've been considering, however, whether it still makes sense to buy sound cards if you end up buying a medium-high tier motherboard, some of which include "sound blaster" style audio. I've read a few articles on this topic, and some people suggest you should invest in top quality speakers before spending money on a sound card, while others simply believe sound cards are a thing of the past and swear there is "no difference" between integrated and dedicated audio. Also, the overhead of processing audio on the CPU is supposedly so minimal that there should be no performance impact using integrated audio.

But I am not convinced. I still somewhat trust my ears and I think dedicated audio is much, much better, for everything from listening to music and watching movies to playing computer games. My current speaker set is not even fancy at all, I have a Logitech X-540 set (5.1) and I think this is enough to tell a difference. Then again, I am very much an audio person, in fact the reason why i chose the Platinum Pro version of Audigy 2 ZS was the dedicated audio inputs for analog recording. I don't use them anymore, having an external Roland interface, but the audio is still top quality. Now, there are professional alternatives out there like the M-Audio cards, but I also like games and ear candy like EAX (which I'm not sure is even used anymore).

So what do you all think? Does any of you have a sound card? Or did you ditch your dedicated audio for integrated a long time ago? Or perhaps you are wondering: "sound ... card? what the hell is that?". Well you see, back in the 90's...

 

[GuyNwah]

Finding a good sound card like your Audigy 2 ZS Platinum Pro is a much rarer than once in a blue moon experience. Most sound cards and most onboard sound are a case of consumer demand for well-hyped placebos at low prices driving quality goods from the market. Short of the market segment that caters to audiophiles and professionals, there is little of distinguishable quality to be had.

For most of my computers, I don't add a sound card unless there is something unsatisfactory about the onboard audio. But I'm not using them for serious listening or recording. I have one I use for that, and I am thinking I will upgrade it with an old Audigy 2 ZS Platinum; anything short of the Platinum Pro is still widely available and inexpensive as surplus.

You are right about the special audio on some (not all) ASUS boards; these are worth seeking out, while other ASUS boards have audio designs that are somewhere between ordinary and egregiously bad.

 

[Georgie_Porgie]

As an audio engineer I never recommend someone buying an internal soundcard, unless they have a motherboard from 2005-2008 only then it makes sense. However, getting AMP/DAC is always a good choice, better quality is guaranteed and more power, though I don't know how loud you like your sound. And almost all sound quality comes from the headphones or speakers everything else is a slight improvement or a downgrade if you are unlucky

As for me I had Auzentech soundcard 5 years ago and I ended it throwing intro a garbage can where it belongs. Now it basically did nothing to improve the audio and just took a pcie slot. But DAC and tube AMP made a difference

 

[volsung]

@Guy N'wah
I think I'll keep my Audigy around and probably move it to the next computer then.

@Veyer,
So you're saying most average sound cards are essentially the same as integrated audio? So help me compare my Audigy 2 ZS Platinum Pro with my integrated audio chip, VIA VT1708S. For instance, if I used the latter, would I have an equalizer and access to bass & treble controls, and individual volumes for each channel, and multiple separate inputs? What about game features? (Is EAX or anything similar still being used?).

This is just from the consumer point of view, since I am pretty sure the VIA will not support ASIO and doesn't even have proper inputs. But then again, that's what external interfaces are for. But I am really curious. I do get lots of audio options even on Linux with the Audigy.

 

[Georgie_Porgie]

@Guy N'wah
@Veyer,
So you're saying most average sound cards are essentially the same as integrated audio? So help me compare my Audigy 2 ZS Platinum Pro with my integrated audio chip, VIA VT1708S. For instance, if I used the latter, would I have an equalizer and access to bass & treble controls, and individual volumes for each channel, and multiple separate inputs? What about game features? (Is EAX or anything similar still being used?).

This is just from the consumer point of view, since I am pretty sure the VIA will not support ASIO and doesn't even have proper inputs. But then again, that's what external interfaces are for. But I am really curious. I do get lots of audio options even on Linux with the Audigy.

Sorry for a late reply. That chips and that soundcard are I would say identical, might have a weaker AMP but that's it. And it should do everything listed above. As for EAX I don't know, I never had Creative products so I can't talk about it, but it won't have EAX or something similar I am afraid.

And yes VIA chip will not support ASIO. Oh and I find it fascinating that you don't have any driver problems that alone I guess makes it kinda worth it since you already have it. Still if are going to get a motherboard I would suggest trying onboard audio as well. Every soundcard makes sound a little different, maybe you will like your sound better despite the lack of some features.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

I'm using the chip integrated into the ASUS motherboard. It's usually sufficient for common usage. My main problem with it, no "mix" device in ALSA. I.e. it's not possible to use that to record sound from the output (useful for audio capturing). The only way to bypass that is either to route output into the input with a physical cable (bad approach - adds noise), or to use PulseAudio capturing (quite CPU heavy and can fail to work if it doesn't keep up with realtime). There are some other ugly hacks like reconfiguring ALSA output device as a file. But they aren't convenient to use at all.

I was looking at SoundBlaster Z some time ago, but their Linux support is abysmal: http://forums.creative.com/showthread.php?t=699670 (or at least was, and I didn't find any other info), so I gave up on them.

May be there are better alternatives.

 

[volsung]

Thanks for your feedback @Veyer. I might give integrated audio a try next time I upgrade, before attempting to purchase an expensive sound card.

@Gilrond,
I have had an excellent experience with older Sound Blaster cards in Linux. My current card, Audigy 2 ZS Plat Pro works wonderfully and ALSA shows controls for more things than I'll ever need. I have access to separate bass and treble volumes, 7 volume channels, 3 inputs, mic, etc. I tried it once or twice with Jack for recording with Ardour but it was horrible. Latency was too high (even with Jack, must be a driver issue) and impossible to play synchronized. I also have a Roland external recording interface and that works much better. Most M-Audio cards are also supported.

So if not recording, Creative has worked fine for me. I heard it took a while for them to release specification sheets that would enable X-Fi support in Linux though, but that is mostly fixed now. I believe most X-Fi cards should work. No idea about Asus Xonar cards though, which appear to be quite good.

 

[volsung]

I noticed some recent motherboards have cool looking audio solutions. That might be worth a shot.

I still have a relatively good sound card, but it's PCI and not all modern motherboards have PCI slots. Ironically, I've noticed the higher tier gaming boards (starting with models such as the Asus Z97-A) which happen to have "special" audio hardware, also have PCI slots.

 

[eskiMoe]

External DAC is always the best option though to isolate the audio components from the noisy environment of PC cases. Even if motherboard manufacturers try to isolate the onboard audio components from the noise as much as possible and sound cards usually come with EMI shields, they do not guarantee an emi noise free experience.

These are quite expensive though. Objective2 is regarded as probably the best bang for your buck amp/dac out there and it still cost me nearly 200€.

 

[volsung]

External DAC is always the best option though to isolate the audio components from the noisy environment of PC cases. Even if motherboard manufacturers try to isolate the onboard audio components from the noise as much as possible and sound cards usually come with EMI shields, they do not guarantee an emi noise free experience.

These are quite expensive though. Objective2 is regarded as probably the best bang for your buck amp/dac out there and it still cost me nearly 200€.

What about external (USB for instance) sound cards like the Asus Xonar U7? Would that be somewhat like an external DAC and headphone AMP with speaker outputs?

 

[eskiMoe]

What about external (USB for instance) sound cards like the Asus Xonar U7? Would that be somewhat like an external DAC and headphone AMP with speaker outputs?

I've heard a lot of negative feedback from Asus' Xonars. Apparently they use some sort of "Dolby Headphone" echo chamber.. thing, that's supposed to produce a "theater like soundstage". A lot of people seem to think it's annoying while gaming and watching movies.

 

[sidspyker]

If we're going to talk about audio maybe we should start a separate thread...

Also, this is my go to site >_>
http://www.headfonia.com/

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Yeah. Noticed some slight EMI noise when playing games with the SBZ so decided to get rid of it. And like with all sound cards there's also the issue of high output impedance which "eats" some of the signal away.

And yes, I absolutely love this. Never going back to sound cards again. Period.

Isn't it just an amplifier? How can it replace a sound card?

---------- Updated at 05:22 AM ----------

http://bit.ly/1JgkVm5

Nah. Too much tracking and bubbling for such a simple search Try this:
https://lmddgtfy.net/?q=audio+hardware+site:http://forums.cdprojektred.com

 

[eskiMoe]

Isn't it just an amplifier? How can it replace a sound card?

It's an amp/dac combo.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Very interesting, especially since it's open hardware.

 

[eskiMoe]

Very interesting, especially since it's open hardware.

Yup. If you're good with a soldering iron, you can just order the parts, make one yourself and save quite a bit of money.

 

[sidspyker]

I'm very... hesitant about a DAC/AMP for one sole reason and that's surround audio.

Currently on my onboard soundcard, I can have a disjoint configuration which works wonders
I set the Windows setting to 5.1 or 7.1 and X-Fi's own settings to headphones, so it pipes surround sound thru the headphones and that results is amazing positional audio that benefits me in every game.

Obviously when I (hopefully) upgrade my PC, this ability will be lost, but fortunately Razer Surround exists and I've tested it before and it works almost the same as my current solution.

 

[eskiMoe]

Most MP games have some sort of headphone setting. Not all of them though. But if you're not into MP and playing against human opponents I don't see a point sacrificing audio quality just to have that binaural sound.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

I wonder if driver for this ODAC is in the upstream Linux kernel already.

 

[eskiMoe]

I wonder if driver for this ODAC is in the upstream Linux kernel already.

?

It doesn't use any drivers. One of the many pros of having an external dac.