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Orders are GWENT's Number One Issue

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Some people accuse me of trolling when I tout the merits of the provision system. [Nope.] The fact is that the provisions system is wonderful. But there is something in GWENT that isn't wonderful in its current state, and that thing is Orders. Yopu see, I attribute most of the game's issues to the Order mechanic.

Think about going first. You have a very powerful hand on round one. Only good cards. No rubbish bronzes just the good stuff. I mention this because maybe if u did have a rubbish card, you'd play that first as cover, but in this hand you don't. You have to play something that is vital to your game plan. So you play a a Gold card with an interesting and fun to use ability. What is your opponent's first move? Well since I can't log in I can't look up the card's name, but they play the card that "Kills the lowest units". The result is an empty board in a game that tries to represent the tactical virtues of two armies clashing. (not ideal)

And depending on teh game, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th card that you play may also get instantly blown up or imprisoned. Because of this situation where your most interesting cards generally get removed or locked almost instantly, people know that it is important that the Orders they include in their deck make a big impact in as small a time window as possible. This places more pressure on the Orders from a design standpoint as each card deisgn strives to be relevant in this removal/lock heavy environment. Which of course, only serves to reinforce the idea that to include plentiful removal and locks in your deck forms a solid foundation for success. It's like a snake that's eating itself.

I think the outcome of playing a unit with abilities would become a whole lot less binary if instead of Charges, each unit casted its abilities from a unique shared resource of some kind. Like maybe monsters have to kill things in order to build enough mana to cast their Orders. Whether enemies or themselves, they have to kill something and they build up their monster resource which will give them enough "mana" but let's just call their resource "Blood" or something ilke that so when you do drop your unit with an ability he should be able to cast it right away. Skellige already has a very similiar mechanic in their Bloodlust system!! Aha, so I'm NOT crazy am I? GWENT is already doing this. (I even gave you a hint of where I was headed by naming my monster resource "Blood". Did you catch it? Good for you! ) But they need to do it MORE!

Now if you give all Order abilities Zeal or at least most of them... you'd have to rewrite basically all of them. I think most Orders should either become condisional Deploy abilities like Skelliige's Bloodlust OR they should apply an aura like effect similiar to traps. You know how traps have a countdown or a trigger. I think most Orders should be like that. For example: The golem that deals 1 damage to a row. He should cast that ability instantly. But the effect should only trigger after a countdown. This effect would lie dormant on the row that has been targeted. It can be removed by using a clearing effect card that nobody seems to have any use for in the game's current state.

The Pirate guy who buffs ships and triggers 1 damage to random enemy when you play a pirate. Instead of just killing or locking the pirate to remove his aura what you should really have to do interfere with the unique resource that his ability is drawing from. How? By using tactics, the same way you can counter a Skellige's Bloodlust by buffing all your units you should be able to counter all these other unique resources too throughout the course fo the game. So it's not just the STR numbers on the field that matter, but also the tactics, and so forth.

Of course many removal cards and lock cards will have to be repurposed in this enviornment. There that is my official posistion of Orders.
 
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That's kind of what I said. Current orders are too decisive, so removal is needed, which makes it harder to use non-Zeal orders, which pressures Order card designs to become more decisive, so removal is needed, which makes it harder to use non-Zeal orders... basicaly it's a binary design. Which is fine for coin flips but not for tactics based games such as chess.

Orders need to function like the Bloodthirst mechanic using a unique resource as a collective mana pool for all cards of that particular type. Then counter play vs card abilities would be more like counter play vs Blood Thirst rather than simply locking and removing everything. This isn't MTG, we aren't godly planeswalkers zapping dragons to pieces with our tapped lands. This is supposed to be army v army. So let the armies get on the field and actually use their talents!
 
The biggest issue with this game is that you play 10 cards in a round and end up with 0 points at the end. HC completely ruined the game by adding excessive damage abilities, made worse by artifacts.
Not sure what's the point of orders and all these synergies if ANYTHING touching the board is instantly killed. Personally i'm done with this crap.
 
I think you have definitely identified the issue with foltest right now. Orders were intended (I am assuming) to be balanced because their strong effects have to wait a turn to be used, however, with foltest all the strongest order cards are activated instantly, therefore removing the balance. That's why everyone has to run removal and locks, because you absolutely have to shut down the engine cards foltest puts down that he does not give zeal, so you can survive the ones he does give zeal. So I feel like the current state of foltest and zeal means removal can't be nerfed anymore or else there will be no counter. These very strong cards have to be balanced to further balance removal, imo.

Which brings me to what op suggested!

I think your idea about bloodthirst type of condition for other factions is pretty interesting :) I am not sure if cdpr would be willing to make such a big change since they are trying to make only small changes now :unsure:
 
Hopefully they stay on the balls of their feet and have the willingness to do whatever is necessary to succeed with this game. I think if they find a way to not have the games decided by WHETHER you use your card's abilities, but rather HOW you use your abilities WHEN you do use them. Then you'll see GWENT's potential begin to be realized. There are other suggestions I have about the game like introducing damage types and armor types to the cards. For example, a sorceress's ability would deal magic damage while an ogroid would deal claw/teeth damage. Witchers for example would be resistant to sorceress and ogroid damage but take full damage from ordinary folk, meaning their base armor type would be pretty strong, so their provision costs would have to reflect that.
 
In my opinion, many cards are likely to trigger a snowball in the game, not only "Orders", and so the removals are so useful. Many "Order" units have only 1 charge so they aren't usually a big problem to deal with. Cards such as Milva (I think she is. The one that buffs herself with every Scoia'Tael played), the dwarf who buffs every turn, the Sihil, etc. (excuse me, I'm novice and I don't remember it's names) are strong cards without using "Orders" and are likely to get a block or a removal ASAP.

As I said, I'm playing since December and I didn't know how the game was before HC and I understand it's frustrating to be obliterated with just one Schirru, Geralt or (Scorch?), etc. It's not the same but I played Hearthstone for years and (depending on the meta) lots of tech cards, removals and stuff like "weapon-breakers", "silences", "polymorphs", etc, are played to counter the most powerful decks and cards of each moment. But these tech cards are eventually not played as long the meta changes. I don't understand how Gwent works yet. I see that maybe in a game that pretends to emulate a battlefield should let it's units to stay alive in the board more time. Maybe some changes in it's gameplay should be done in order to make the game "different" to other similar games such as HS, and to make these removals less played in pro of another kinds of archetypes and strategies.
 
Well yeah, I play HS too. But I only play it with the knowledge that I'm partaking in a completely broken mess. It is officially pay to win to the point where it's even absurd to bring up the question of whether or not it's pay to win. Remember when that used to be a contraversal thing to ask? "Is Hearthstone pay to win?" Nobody even asks that anymore just like nobody ever asks whether it's balanced.

No one even wants to know who the 'best' players are because it isn't a game of skill and counters. It's a game where Paladin legendaries and Zul jin just run rampant against anyone who hasn't spent the money to buy their own copies. It's a game where as a priest you are utterly helpless vs hunter unless you invent your $$$ in 2x Psychic Scream.

My point is this: the way that HS handles Acidic Slimes and oh my goodness --- the board clears. Let's not even talk about how stupid their philosophy on board clears is... Because as I said I play HS but only because I like to fool around with Rogue mechanics which are all usually really FUN as in a complete randomness shit show kinda fun, but totally inadequate vs Hunter and people who spent $$$$.

Oh yeah, my point let's not compare HS to Gwent. lol HS is just a technicolor slot machine. The more coins you put in, the better your chance to squeak by and get higher percentages to win. That's it. That's all there is to it.
 
In my opinion, many cards are likely to trigger a snowball in the game, not only "Orders", and so the removals are so useful. Many "Order" units have only 1 charge so they aren't usually a big problem to deal with. Cards such as Milva (I think she is. The one that buffs herself with every Scoia'Tael played), the dwarf who buffs every turn, the Sihil, etc. (excuse me, I'm novice and I don't remember it's names) are strong cards without using "Orders" and are likely to get a block or a removal ASAP.

As I said, I'm playing since December and I didn't know how the game was before HC and I understand it's frustrating to be obliterated with just one Schirru, Geralt or (Scorch?), etc. It's not the same but I played Hearthstone for years and (depending on the meta) lots of tech cards, removals and stuff like "weapon-breakers", "silences", "polymorphs", etc, are played to counter the most powerful decks and cards of each moment. But these tech cards are eventually not played as long the meta changes. I don't understand how Gwent works yet. I see that maybe in a game that pretends to emulate a battlefield should let it's units to stay alive in the board more time. Maybe some changes in it's gameplay should be done in order to make the game "different" to other similar games such as HS, and to make these removals less played in pro of another kinds of archetypes and strategies.
The annoying part about removal is that in beta, most of the time, you could avoid it by playing smart because of the third row and because units base strengths were wider apart.
Sure, you could easily remove a single engine, but entire boardwipes? Only if your opponent was braindead.
 
That's kind of what I said. Current orders are too decisive, so removal is needed, which makes it harder to use non-Zeal orders, which pressures Order card designs to become more decisive, so removal is needed, which makes it harder to use non-Zeal orders... basicaly it's a binary design. Which is fine for coin flips but not for tactics based games such as chess.

Orders need to function like the Bloodthirst mechanic using a unique resource as a collective mana pool for all cards of that particular type. Then counter play vs card abilities would be more like counter play vs Blood Thirst rather than simply locking and removing everything. This isn't MTG, we aren't godly planeswalkers zapping dragons to pieces with our tapped lands. This is supposed to be army v army. So let the armies get on the field and actually use their talents!
I was looking for a topic about this. Couldn't agree more with the above. I think the same is true for charges. Similar to orders, if the addition of charges (Demavend deck) goes unanswered (locks or removal) they are decisive too. And this indeed makes the game more binary, as specific match-ups become auto-wins and auto-losses, and promoting the use of high-control decks.

Seriously, why all this slow stuff with orders and charges, not even mentioning the issues they bring? This is not an RPG is it? Engine cards like Yennefer: Conjurer and Kaedweni Revenant (with automatic 1 charge per cooldown period) are enough. Instead of orders and adding charges, give units deploy abilities and add some units (focus on units!) that allow another unit to repeat its deploy ability (like units triggering another unit's deathwish). Make Gwent excitingly fast again!
 
The problem is that cards like Hubert are balanced around the concept of how easily orders can be disrupted, if you could not interrupt them as easily Hubert would be a gamebreaking card and would define a tier 0 deck.
They already started rolling with that kind of design, it is balanced around that concept.
Honestly old Gwent had the same design, only that it applied in less cases and that a pure removal/control deck was not viable in old Gwent.

At this point they should keep rolling with the game, rather than overthrowing the entire game once again, though I agree and would like units to be less snowbally with their Order abilities and see less removal.
Again that depends on the cardpool and new sets can re-order the balance, however Hubert is a very design limiting card in that way, it (even just by existing) means that Order abilities are the most snowbally concept in the game and must have strong counters.
 
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The problem is that cards like Hubert are balanced around the concept of how easily orders can be disrupted, if you could not interrupt them as easily Hubert would be a gamebreaking card and would define a tier 0 deck.
They already started rolling with that kind of design, it is balanced around that concept.
Honestly old Gwent had the same design, only that it applied in less cases and that a pure removal/control deck was not viable in old Gwent.

At this point they should keep rolling with the game, rather than overthrowing the entire game once again, though I agree and would like units to be less snowbally with their Order abilities and see less removal.
Again that depends on the cardpool and new sets can re-order the balance, however Hubert is a very design limiting card in that way, it (even just by existing) means that Order abilities are the most snowbally concept in the game and must have strong counters.
Exactly, I see that kind of design. It is structural. Hubert is actually strong because of order cards that support him. Indeed, several order cards would be OP/gamebreaking without order (look at the current Coral). That is again the all-or-nothing, do-you-have-removal/lock-or-not binary RNG gamble, similar to artifact removal and unlimited damage units like Geralt. Is that the psychology behind the game to get people hooked? I hope not. This stuff should be changed to make it more a fast-paced strategy game.
 
If it has an order, it should be harder to remove - the pay off should be worth the risk. In Gwent it's not - I've taken out plenty of decent cards with a Wild Hunt Hound, Alzur's, Cyclops. It's a common them throughout the game - decent cards and plays can be blitzed by one crap card. You can nerf Foltests Pride, Ava'lach, Setkirk, Nenneke, and many more just by deploying a Drowner, hitting it and moving it!

The answer is to adapt to the game. Sadly that means playing one of 5 decks, 3 of which are Monster, if you want to win.
 
If it has an order, it should be harder to remove - the pay off should be worth the risk. In Gwent it's not - I've taken out plenty of decent cards with a Wild Hunt Hound, Alzur's, Cyclops. It's a common them throughout the game - decent cards and plays can be blitzed by one crap card. You can nerf Foltests Pride, Ava'lach, Setkirk, Nenneke, and many more just by deploying a Drowner, hitting it and moving it!
Or it could cost less, be less conditional and/or have a stronger ability relative to similar priced cards. There are a lot of ways to "balance" order cards. If only powerful cards could deal with powerful cards the game would be rather restricted and simplified. Not that it isn't already. Balance is hard to achieve but not impossible. Even with the way the game is currently designed. Issues related to balance aren't necessarily due to the overall design of most cards. They're more a result of the people in charge of the game balance.

The answer is to adapt to the game. Sadly that means playing one of 5 decks, 3 of which are Monster, if you want to win.
No offense but there are far more than 5 viable decks. The biggest issue with deck viability is, well, most "competitive" decks are downright degenerate, faceroll to play and/or incredibly dull to play with or against. It's why I haven't played in over a week. I'm hoping the expansion will change some of this or, at the very least, add enough freshness to the game to mask the irritation. Unfortunately, the number of expansion reveals is directly proportional to the amount those hopes are dwindling :).
 
I have to say I find orders add almost nothing to the game, and seem to just create an odd turn-ordering.

Shit like using an order then being forced to play a card, playing a card then forgetting to end turn manually because orders are available, turning leaders into orders is just meh, and means you cant use your leader ability without also playing a card forcing a 2-card spend in a single turn...

What was wrong with timer abilities and on-play on-death on-mechanic effects? Why add this system that adds nothing but annoyance.
 
Think about going first. You have a very powerful hand on round one. Only good cards. No rubbish bronzes just the good stuff. I mention this because maybe if u did have a rubbish card, you'd play that first as cover, but in this hand you don't. You have to play something that is vital to your game plan.
stopped reading here because it was your fuckup for mulliganning incorrectly. or if you somehow drew into 3 witchers + roach and gold cards then mulliganned 2 witchers into 2 more golds then okay. you got a literal 1,000,000 draw and will probably lose the game unless the opponent wants to win round 1 and matches your quality. even as it stands you could probably play 3 cards and pass and it won't be too bad.
 
No offense but there are far more than 5 viable decks. The biggest issue with deck viability is, well, most "competitive" decks are downright degenerate, faceroll to play and/or incredibly dull to play with or against. It's why I haven't played in over a week. I'm hoping the expansion will change some of this or, at the very least, add enough freshness to the game to mask the irritation. Unfortunately, the number of expansion reveals is directly proportional to the amount those hopes are dwindling :).
I should have said "competitive", sorry. I'm at 5 and giving it a go, but face very little variety. I tweak my deck to change things every couple of games, whether winning or losing, but what I find really odd/suspicious is I had a MO deck and had Yrden. Couple of games went by and Yrden was proving useless, it was either NG or NR Kaedweni, so nothing to reset. Took him out, popped Niv/DD in, immediately faced Eredin/Slyzard and the oppo was relentlessly taunting as if they KNEW I could do nothing! So swapped around and went for Scorch as I'd also been getting stung by Old Speartip. As soon as I did that, was up against ST and NR engine again!!!
 
I should have said "competitive", sorry. I'm at 5 and giving it a go, but face very little variety. I tweak my deck to change things every couple of games, whether winning or losing, but what I find really odd/suspicious is I had a MO deck and had Yrden. Couple of games went by and Yrden was proving useless, it was either NG or NR Kaedweni, so nothing to reset. Took him out, popped Niv/DD in, immediately faced Eredin/Slyzard and the oppo was relentlessly taunting as if they KNEW I could do nothing! So swapped around and went for Scorch as I'd also been getting stung by Old Speartip. As soon as I did that, was up against ST and NR engine again!!!
I made an Anti-MO deck after 2 losses against MO. Next 5 matches: 4 Scoia and 1 NR (2 wins-3 losses). Go back to my "normal" deck...first match: MO....great :facepalm:
 
I should have said "competitive", sorry. I'm at 5 and giving it a go, but face very little variety. I tweak my deck to change things every couple of games, whether winning or losing, but what I find really odd/suspicious is I had a MO deck and had Yrden. Couple of games went by and Yrden was proving useless, it was either NG or NR Kaedweni, so nothing to reset. Took him out, popped Niv/DD in, immediately faced Eredin/Slyzard and the oppo was relentlessly taunting as if they KNEW I could do nothing! So swapped around and went for Scorch as I'd also been getting stung by Old Speartip. As soon as I did that, was up against ST and NR engine again!!!
Same, I teched cards like Yrden and immediately faced almost only decks it is dead against, while previously facing almost only decks I would gain a substancial advantage by teching it.
And after I took it out it went back to the previous situation.